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Bikepacking the new Touring?

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Bikepacking the new Touring?

Old 04-19-18, 04:26 AM
  #126  
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Wonder

I wonder if any time in future they will make aerodynamic ,,carbon fiber,, panniers ,,ultra light ,,that need No rack to hook to your bike,, and charge like ,,$1000$ + for them.
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Old 04-19-18, 05:58 AM
  #127  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
I've been surprised by the overall wind resistance of 4 panniers+ too. Just don't know how bikepackers' knees don't bump into the frame bags.
A properly fit frame bag doesn't interfere with legs, or not from the few riders I know who use them.
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Old 04-19-18, 06:47 AM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by DropBarFan View Post
Just don't know how bikepackers' knees don't bump into the frame bags.
It's only made to go so wide with that idea in mind, plus a lot of bikepacking bikes are in the "plus" or "fat" categories, and those bikes often have a little more space between the pedals. In practice I've found that it's probably possible to stuff a frame bag to the point where it bulges and brushes the crank, but it's easily noticed and fixed by redistributing your gear.
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Old 04-19-18, 07:30 AM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
i have a tape measure and i'm not afraid to use it.
.
See? That's exactly what I was talking about. Yesterday, I found a perfectly good 25' Stanley tape measure, on the side of the road. But I couldn't justify carrying the extra weight, or losing the storage space, so I sat it on a guard rail for some lucky dog to find. 😉
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Old 04-19-18, 07:47 AM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by rossiny View Post
I wonder if any time in future they will make aerodynamic ,,carbon fiber,, panniers ,,ultra light ,,that need No rack to hook to your bike,, and charge like ,,$1000$ + for them.
I know, right! I can see them in my mind's eye. They'd be a lot like what we'd find on a touring motorcycle, but narrower, smaller, and lighter weight. I'll wager that CF bags like this would - if properly constructed, and well-engineered - be as light as fabric panniers. It would be so nice to have a lock on each one!
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Old 04-19-18, 07:59 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by NoControl View Post
I know, right! I can see them in my mind's eye. ...

https://www.kickstarter.com/projects...k-and-panniers

https://cyclingtips.com/2018/02/tail...annier-review/

First look: Tailfin carbon fibre rack and matching panniers | road.cc


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Carbon-fibe...-/272553158807

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Old 04-19-18, 10:23 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Anyone out there care to make a case for the name change?
The name is the current fashion. I'm not sure what they called it 1898, but this is what it looked like.



fixed gear, no racks, thin tires, wool clothing, ties & knickers!

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Old 04-19-18, 11:32 AM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
The name is the current fashion. I'm not sure what they called it 1898, but this is what it looked like.



fixed gear, no racks, thin tires, wool clothing, ties & knickers!
I kinda wish knickers would become cool again. I can't even guess how many pants legs I've mangled over the years. 🙄
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Old 04-19-18, 11:37 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
A properly fit frame bag doesn't interfere with legs, or not from the few riders I know who use them.

Depends on how wide your hips and gate are....also how stuffed the frame bag is.



If I have a water bottle not quite fully vertical in a seat-tube cage, my legs will brush it enough to be annoying.
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Old 04-19-18, 01:33 PM
  #135  
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Looks like we have the technology for a carbon everything bikepacking bike. I am waiting for somebody to put the whole thing together and tell us all about it.
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Old 04-19-18, 04:57 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
Depends on how wide your hips and gate are....also how stuffed the frame bag is.

If I have a water bottle not quite fully vertical in a seat-tube cage, my legs will brush it enough to be annoying.
I guess, although realistically it cant be that bad, given how many riders use them. And yes, I too really dont like brushing up against a water bottle handle, I use those Polar ones with the handy carrying loop (which I find super handy) which will brush against my leg if they arent centered properly.

I should add again that I havent used a frame bag, am only going from the few people I know that use them.
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Old 04-20-18, 12:04 AM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by rossiny View Post
I wonder if any time in future they will make aerodynamic ,,carbon fiber,, panniers ,,ultra light ,,that need No rack to hook to your bike,, and charge like ,,$1000$ + for them.
One can buy a carbon frame complete bike for under $2,000, carbon front/rear rack/pannier combo could be produced for $1,200 & would save a lot of weight. Seems expensive but many tourists spend $1K for primo tents/sleeping bags that perhaps save less weight.

Originally Posted by djb View Post
A properly fit frame bag doesn't interfere with legs, or not from the few riders I know who use them.
My knees can bump into water bottles & occasionally even into the top tube. I'd guess most frame bag users wouldn't have bought one if they already had that problem.
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Old 04-20-18, 06:56 AM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by alan s View Post
Well, this is just your opinion, unless you have scientific data to back it up.
Sigh.

No, I don't have scientific data to back it up. But neither does the Cycle About post. He has data, sure, but it isn't complete. It's an interesting result but it isn't definitive since we don't know the variance. You can't draw conclusions from flawed data...well, you can but they are likely the wrong conclusions.

I'm not saying that he's wrong only that we can't know without more information.

Originally Posted by alan s View Post
Let’s get back to the aero argument, guys. I was winning that one, but this weight weenie stuff is getting in the way.
Well, no you aren't.
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Old 04-20-18, 07:33 AM
  #139  
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Old 04-20-18, 07:57 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by Rob_E View Post
The original assertion that I did not agree with was that bikepackers carry more bags, and the extra bags offset the weight savings of not using a traditional pannier set-up. All the nitpicking aside, I just looked at my own gear and did some calculations. Used 500 grams for a rear rack and 360 for front, using your suggested rear rack and a commonly recommended front rack. Of course limiting the choices to aluminum racks definitely skews the results given that steel racks also seem popular among the 4-pannier crowd and are considerably heavier.
Look at my other posts. I already addressed this. Steel racks that are popular with the 4-pannier (or 2 pannier) crowd aren't "considerably heavier". They aren't heavier at all. The Blackburn EX weighs the same as the Tubus Cargo and the Tubus Cargo is about the heaviest of the Tubus racks.

Originally Posted by Rob_E View Post
My conclusion was that in an evaluation of volume/weight, my most efficient piece of gear is my seat-post bag followed by my handlebar roll. My least efficient piece of gear was my set of front-roller classics, followed closely by my Anything Cage/bag combo.
Okay. That's your opinion. Why is your opinion "better" than mine?

Originally Posted by Rob_E View Post
I think what I missed was what you are expressing as absolutes are straight-up opinions, and opinions I don't share. I still prefer panniers when and where they are practical, but I wouldn't call them far superior. I have really only taken one trip with no rear rack at all, but that trip was around 400 miles long and involved no terrain that I couldn't have managed with panniers, and still if I had it to do over, I'd make no special effort to bring my rack and pannier set-up because the bikepacking gear was fine.
How is my opinion "absolute". It's my opinion and is based on the same thing yours is...i.e. my experiences. Frankly, for me, the bikepacking bags are something I can "endure" for about 3 days. I can go without a shower for about that long. Because of the minimalist character of "bikepacking", I don't carry any of the stuff I need for personal hygiene other than a tooth brush. I carry freeze-dried meals and then only about 3 days worth. I carry few if any comfort items and I carry minimal...well, more minimal than road touring...electronics. I don't carry anything that needs to be plugged in nor the cords to do so. It's spartan and meant to be that way.

For longer trips, I carry more stuff. Like soap and a towel for showering, a razor and stuff for cooking food. Freeze-dried is too expensive to eat for weeks on end and who want too eat it that often? I have also found through long experience that I need the extra room that panniers offer because I need to carry around 3 days of food with me most of the time...even when road touring. I've been in far too many places around the US where if I don't, I'm going to add a 20 mile round trip to the nearest grocery store to a 50, 60, or 70 mile day.
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Old 04-20-18, 08:30 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
I never remove my bags on my trips, people carry them around? Hmmm.
There are places where removing the bags comes in very handy. I don't often leave camp after I've made it but on rare occasion, I need to stock up and/or make a grocery run. I try to got to grocery stores during the day when I find one along the way but occasionally that doesn't work out. For example, at Harper's Ferry, I knew that I would be riding along the C&O where there are few grocery stores so I rode to one. I didn't what to carry everything with me so I left most of the bags (and their contents at the campsite.

Harper's Ferry also presented a unique problem that I've never encountered before...a spiral stair.

IMGP1106 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

a steep spiral stair

2015-05-20 14.52.01 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

and a very tight one

2015-05-20 14.55.21 by Stuart Black, on Flickr

I foolishly muscled the fully loaded bike up that stair in the evening when I went across but when I came back, I unloaded the bike and carried everything down the stair. With regular panniers, I just grab the handle and the panniers come off. With a bikepacking bag, the removal and installation is more involved. And they don't have all the convenient handles.

And before people go saying "the bikepacking load would have been lighter", yes, but it's not zero weight. Pushing a bike up or down those stairs is bad enough. Any extra weight makes it worse. And the bike is easier to carry with the top tube open so that would mean removal of at least the seat post bag and any frame bag which are both more complicated than panniers.

Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
Aero stuff? Not that much of a concern for me on the dirt.
That's kind of what I've been saying all along. I have said, repeatedly, that any aerodynamic differences are minimal.

Originally Posted by Leebo View Post
For me the bikepacking set ups rule, minimalist weight, less bulk than panniers and better handling on singletrack.
Again, I would agree for off-road riding. I would go that route if I were to do the Great Divide Trail or any off-road adventure. I have gone that route after trying panniers and a couple of trailers. But for on-road touring, I feel I'm already suffering enough. I'm not totally comfortable when bicycle touring but I don't feel the need to go out of my way to make it worse.
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Old 04-20-18, 09:27 AM
  #142  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Look at my other posts. I already addressed this. Steel racks that are popular with the 4-pannier (or 2 pannier) crowd aren't "considerably heavier". They aren't heavier at all. The Blackburn EX weighs the same as the Tubus Cargo and the Tubus Cargo is about the heaviest of the Tubus racks.
"No racks" weigh less than "some racks." That is what I'm saying. How this is a heated topic of debate, I do not know. I used for examples racks that are actually on my bikes, and racks that I am familiar with. You used racks you are familiar with which are lighter. Fine. They have weight. I'm obviously not a weight weenie since I seem to not only be using racks but using racks that are heavier than average. I just don't dismiss the idea that bikepacking gear is significantly lighter. When I weighed it out, I found a pound in difference, which seemed significant to me. That is my whole argument on weight.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Originally Posted by Rob_E View Post
My conclusion was that in an evaluation of volume/weight, my most efficient piece of gear is my seat-post bag followed by my handlebar roll. My least efficient piece of gear was my set of front-roller classics, followed closely by my Anything Cage/bag combo.
Okay. That's your opinion. Why is your opinion "better" than mine?
No, sorry. I have opinions. I do try to express them, but the idea that bikepacking gear has a better volume per weight ratio was something I used math for. If you've done math and came out with a different result, that's something we can compare and see why our numbers differ. Maybe we'll find a difference of opinion in what numbers should be used. That actually seems very likely. But to answer your question: Why is my opinion better than yours? It isn't. But the answer to my math problem is better than yours because you have not offered one.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Originally Posted by Rob_E View Post
Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
You seem to have missed that I, too, have used both setups. I do find the bikepacking bags to be miserable by comparison but they are less miserable for their intended use than panniers are and far less miserable than a trailer. However, on a smooth road or even on a smooth packed railtrail, panniers are far superior...even for a light load.
I think what I missed was what you are expressing as absolutes are straight-up opinions, and opinions I don't share. I still prefer panniers when and where they are practical, but I wouldn't call them far superior. I have really only taken one trip with no rear rack at all, but that trip was around 400 miles long and involved no terrain that I couldn't have managed with panniers, and still if I had it to do over, I'd make no special effort to bring my rack and pannier set-up because the bikepacking gear was fine.
How is my opinion "absolute". It's my opinion and is based on the same thing yours is...i.e. my experiences. Frankly, for me, the bikepacking bags are something I can "endure" for about 3 days. I can go without a shower for about that long.
It's that "for me" that you emphasized in the last bit that makes it clear that it's an opinion, and the lack of it in the bold part that makes it a proclamation of fact. It is statements like that combined with the tenor of the comments on this thread that seem to be arguing against any of the merits of bikepacking gear based on the fact that you don't like it. You don't have to like it. You don't have to use it. Bikepacking systems are almost certainly lighter, and are very likely more aerodynamic. So what? Panniers have other advantages. Also, I like them, and that's enough.

Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post
Because of the minimalist character of "bikepacking", I don't carry any of the stuff I need for personal hygiene other than a tooth brush. I carry freeze-dried meals and then only about 3 days worth. I carry few if any comfort items and I carry minimal...well, more minimal than road touring...electronics. I don't carry anything that needs to be plugged in nor the cords to do so. It's spartan and meant to be that way.

For longer trips, I carry more stuff. Like soap and a towel for showering, a razor and stuff for cooking food. Freeze-dried is too expensive to eat for weeks on end and who want too eat it that often? I have also found through long experience that I need the extra room that panniers offer because I need to carry around 3 days of food with me most of the time...even when road touring. I've been in far too many places around the US where if I don't, I'm going to add a 20 mile round trip to the nearest grocery store to a 50, 60, or 70 mile day.
You should totally stick to a pannier system. Everyone who tried to tell you that you would be better off with bikepacking set-up is wrong. Even though I don't think anyone told you that.
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Old 04-20-18, 11:17 AM
  #143  
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I missed the part where, except for the frame bag, bike packing bags are impossible to take off and leave at camp.
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Old 04-20-18, 05:45 PM
  #144  
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Make your own bags Ņ good idea
2 racks, 4 panniers = 10 pounds
bob trailer = 12 pounds
bike packing home made gear = 3 pounds

What you all missed.
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack
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Old 04-20-18, 11:00 PM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack
The reality is low-riders don't work well in many situations including cities, where low-riding-panniers are apt to hit curbs. I'm thinking in a few years low-riders will be be out-of-fashion.
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Old 04-21-18, 10:27 AM
  #146  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chrisx
Panniers dont fit on trails, my low rider rack lasted exactly 3 miles,
2 miles to get to a trail, and 1 mile to bump into a rock and break the rack

The reality is low-riders don't work well in many situations including cities, where low-riding-panniers are apt to hit curbs. I'm thinking in a few years low-riders will be be out-of-fashion

I donít think anyone has suggested one doesnít have to look where one is going when operating a vehicle. Isnít this kinda like keeping your inside pedal up when cornering? In the down position, my pedals are closer to the ground than a lowrider pannier and only marginally higher when horizontal.
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Old 04-21-18, 11:41 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by L134 View Post
In the down position, my pedals are closer to the ground than a lowrider pannier and only marginally higher when horizontal.
Pedals move and can be positioned to avoid obstacles. Additionally they are much closer in vs. panniers. But I agree avoiding obstacles is the way to go.
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Old 04-21-18, 08:19 PM
  #148  
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I just stumbled across this carbon fiber rear rack with matching bags. Looks pretty slick. Anyone have any further info on them, or seen them in person?

https://www.tailfin.cc/
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Old 04-21-18, 09:21 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by BigAura View Post
Pedals move and can be positioned to avoid obstacles. Additionally they are much closer in vs. panniers. But I agree avoiding obstacles is the way to go.
depends on what model of each. my loaded rear bags (15L) stick out practically the
same as my platform pedals (within 1/2"). bags have 16" ground clearance.
pedals have 5"/19" clearance.

front bags are smaller. (i don't have smaller bags or lowrider on hand to measure)
instead of lowrider, use an equivalent weight platform rack with top rails. in that
case you'll have the same width, but higher clearance than the rear.

(.......or just watch where you're going.)
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Old 04-22-18, 04:39 AM
  #150  
BobG
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Originally Posted by chrisx View Post
Panniers dont fit on trails...
Well, sometimes that may be true but they'll work on many trails as long as they are not too narrow and gnarly. Back in 1991 I cycled the Coromandel Walkway in New Zealand to complete a road loop around the peninsula. I was on a touring bike with low riders on the front and high riders on the rear. Back then mountain bikes were the new thing and "bikepacking" was 20 years or more in the future. Also rode 2 weeks of MT Great Divide Trail with low riders. Had fun despite my inadequate gear!

https://outthere.kiwi/wp-content/upl...l-Walkway9.jpg
https://outthere.kiwi/coromandel-walkway/
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