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Building Touring wheel with carbon rims and Rohloff hub ?

Old 06-25-18, 05:33 AM
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Building Touring wheel with carbon rims and Rohloff hub ?

I got this idea to build carbon rim touring wheels with a rohloff hub. Has anyone done that and if so what would be your advice for sizing etc ... ?
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Old 06-25-18, 08:23 AM
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I think the biggest issue you'll have will be finding the suitable rims you want. But considering there quite a few reputable carbon rim makers in different price ranges that likely won't be an issue at all. I don't know much about carbon rims in the current market but a few years back light bicycle rims were considered to be ok.

As for actual building, it should be pretty much the same as building aluminum rims. Use a suitable lubrication on the outside of the nipples, use a thread locking / lubricating compound on the threads of the spokes (boiled linseed oil is the old school method but still one of the best thread lockers for spoke nipples today). The nice thing about carbon is that it can withstand higher spoke tensions than aluminum rims, at least according to manufacturer specifications. This means you can build a stronger wheel even with a dished rear hub. Considering you're going the rohloff route, you'll have no dish on the rear wheel so the wheel should be pretty dang bombproof. So much so in fact that if you think of building the wheel 700c, 32 spokes should be plenty enough.
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Old 06-25-18, 08:28 AM
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Touring? Recommend not carbon... R'off manual has recommendations of spoke lengths for a few specific rims
of Aluminium ..

My 04, Koga WTR came (used) with a 32 hole 3 cross lacing , which would have worked
if they got the key head in spoke in the right hole , furthest from the casing split bolts radiating back over them,

Now with the 36 spoke hub shell 3 cross, and the flange reinforcement ring they offer,
Can combine for hard core remote mountain adventure riding past the ends of the pavement, security,

that can make a very reliable rear wheel ..
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Old 06-25-18, 10:57 AM
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If you read the Rohloff recommendations you will find that they recommend against 3 cross. The only 3 cross Rholoff wheel I am aware of is the one that Fietsbob bought. But there probably are other wheels out there that were built by mechanics that did not read the Rohloff recommendations.


Not sure why you would want a carbon rim on a Rohloff wheel, but maybe you have a reason that I can't grasp.

Rohloff has wide set flanges, that results in the spokes that are less perpendicular to the rim than the normal wheel. Some wheel builders have had spoke breakage because of that. I have never worked with a carbon rim, thus I have no idea if this is a concern or not. Ryde (formerly Ridgida) is the only company I know that will drill a rim specifically for Rohloff that has the holes for the nipples drilled to an orientation that is closer to what you want for a Rohloff hub.
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Old 06-25-18, 11:33 AM
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I'm somewhat fond of carbon rims, having them on my road bike and fat bike. Only my touring bike doesn't have them and I was thinking that perhaps the added weight of Rohloff Hub could be offset by the carbon rim. I am aware of the pro and con dialog about carbon rims for touring but my perception seems to be moving toward acceptance now that I have been using carbon rims on my other bikes for a few years.

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
If you read the Rohloff recommendations you will find that they recommend against 3 cross. The only 3 cross Rholoff wheel I am aware of is the one that Fietsbob bought. But there probably are other wheels out there that were built by mechanics that did not read the Rohloff recommendations.


Not sure why you would want a carbon rim on a Rohloff wheel, but maybe you have a reason that I can't grasp.

Rohloff has wide set flanges, that results in the spokes that are less perpendicular to the rim than the normal wheel. Some wheel builders have had spoke breakage because of that. I have never worked with a carbon rim, thus I have no idea if this is a concern or not. Ryde (formerly Ridgida) is the only company I know that will drill a rim specifically for Rohloff that has the holes for the nipples drilled to an orientation that is closer to what you want for a Rohloff hub.
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Old 06-25-18, 01:44 PM
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus
I'm somewhat fond of carbon rims, having them on my road bike and fat bike. Only my touring bike doesn't have them and I was thinking that perhaps the added weight of Rohloff Hub could be offset by the carbon rim. I am aware of the pro and con dialog about carbon rims for touring but my perception seems to be moving toward acceptance now that I have been using carbon rims on my other bikes for a few years.
Got it. Thanks for responding.

When you add up the weight of a Rohloff hub, the spokes, the tube and tire (or sealant if tubeless), rim tape, plus of course the rim, I think it will save you very little weight but if you really want one, go for it.

You did not say anything about brakes. If you go with a disc, Rohloff does not use the standard 6 bolt pattern, you would have to buy more expensive rotors that fit on the Rohloff, another factor for your price list.

When I built up my Titanium touring bike a year ago (Lynskey Backroad) I knew it would not save a lot of weight. But I got a great deal on the frame and decided to go for it even though it did not make a lot of sense. So, I do understand the concept of wanting something that does not always make sense to others. I really like that bike and put 44 miles on it yesterday.
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Old 06-25-18, 02:15 PM
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Yea I read that, Koga, mailed me new spokes from NL when I got the bike Used.. It is for 32 2 cross .

but the 3 cross could have worked .. look at the left side of Your R'off Hub, (you have one, right?)
each of the 8 bolts that split the casing, have 2 spoke holes between them .

a spoke more at a tangent, reduces the potential ripping out a spoke hole,
that increases, as it becomes more radial, less crosses

36 hole model the casing split has 9 bolts, still 2 spoke holes, between each .
that can be built 3 cross much simpler,,

(3 x in my 32 hole Front Hubs , no problems)

MY Bike Friday 32 hole 406 rim is 1 cross ( front 3 cross also),

but the 349 rim is 24 hole , its Also large flange Hub,

Not a Rohloff , but a Sram i 9, is 2 cross on a 36 hole hub,

it crosses past a skipped hub hole at quite a tangent..


Save weight , with smaller wheels !





....
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Old 06-25-18, 02:41 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
...
but the 3 cross could have worked .. look at the left side of Your R'off Hub, (you have one, right?)
...
....
Yes I have one, 36 spoke.

When things like warranties get involved, I always recommend that someone follow manufacturers recommendations.

When Rohloff recommends 2 cross for a wheel on a full size bike (26 or more inches or more), I see no reason to suggest to others that they do something different than manufacturers recommendations.

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Old 06-25-18, 03:23 PM
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Koga is a Major manufacturer of premium bicycles They chose differently..
that's all ..

you taking this personally? but no carbon rims..

I have a 30 + year old , wheelset large flange Drum brakes, its 4 cross ,,

no casing separation to get in the way...

3X 36 hole is a pretty conservative build, OEM bikes have been shipping them for decades ,






...
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Old 06-26-18, 11:16 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob
Koga is a Major manufacturer of premium bicycles They chose differently..
that's all ..

you taking this personally? ...
...
Yeah Koga has designed and built a lot of good bikes, but that does not mean they know more about a Rohloff wheel than Rohloff.

Not taking it personally, but I would hate to see someone follow your advice without realizing that they would be violating manufacturer's recommendations when things like warranties might be involved later. And I see no technical justification for why you suggest violating manufacturer recommendations other than your wheel was built that way.
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Old 06-26-18, 11:17 AM
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Carbon rim + Speedhub seems like a bad idea. The hub is heavy AF, you will not regain those grams with C rim. More importantly for touring, C rims are deep dish, with a lower ERD and require unusually short spokes, a situation exacerbated by Speedhub's relatively large outer diameter. You may need custom-length spokes to build C+Speedhub, which limits spoke choice and makes the odds of finding replacement spokes or rim "in the field" in short time frame nearly impossible. Schedule all your catastrophic rear wheel failures in a major city with international shipping offices, cause you'll be spending weeks there waiting for bike parts.

Weight-savings-wise, you run up against diminished returns quickly in the loaded touring scenario. IOW, 50-100g weight savings at $$$ cost is a bit absurd if you haven't already carefully considered weight of all other gear. An extra full water bottle will negate the weight savings of $1000 worth of C rims.
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Old 06-26-18, 11:26 AM
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For those who read the published information ..
They deduct all the things on a derailleur drive train you don't need with an IGH,

and you could also do this y/n?

go somewhere, new, or stay home with your gram scale, weighing stuff is a choice.









...
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Old 06-26-18, 11:38 AM
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BOB, IIRC Spedhub is still heavier by 100-300g even after doing the component delete math.

To me the RS's primary advantage to derailleur drive is reduced drivetrain cleaning frequency and a superior wheel build (dishless) which may translate to greater wheel longevity. These advantages are offset by lower drivetrain efficiency/increased pedaling effort, more weight, poorer (wider) gearing steps, Speedhub-specific frame required for best appearance and much greater cost. Failed hub has to ship to Germany for warranty repair. Speedhubs are rarely seen in touring or mtbing use for good reason.

Weighing stuff is a smart choice when the stuff is human transported.
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Old 06-26-18, 11:44 AM
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I got far and wide without worrying about it... you have different priorities...
(and , it seems, obsessions)


Full service in Richmond Cal , Rohloff USA service and wholesale parts distribution is now consolidated , part of https://www.cyclemonkey.com/
was in El Cerrito/Oakland, a 1 man shop doing that..


Most brands are coming thru the 3 west coast container ports as it is..







..

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Old 06-26-18, 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by seeker333
. Speedhubs are rarely seen in touring or mtbing use for good reason..
The reason is, they're expensive.

Talking to Co-Motion at NAHBS a couple of years ago, they said half of their touring orders now are spec'd with Rohloff. Its definitely a cult following.
I have three of them.

If the OP really wants a carbon rim/rohloff combo, I would suggest talking to Cycle Monkey. They've built a lot of Rohloff bikes and have a fair amount of expertise.
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Old 06-26-18, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by seeker333
...
To me the RS's primary advantage to derailleur drive is reduced drivetrain cleaning frequency and a superior wheel build (dishless) which may translate to greater wheel longevity. These advantages are offset by lower drivetrain efficiency/increased pedaling effort, more weight, poorer (wider) gearing steps, Speedhub-specific frame required for best appearance and much greater cost. Failed hub has to ship to Germany for warranty repair. Speedhubs are rarely seen in touring or mtbing use for good reason.
....
Rohloff are quite rare in USA, in part because almost all bike components in USA go through so many hands by the time you buy it that the price becomes really high. I think I saved about $500 by buying my Rohloff from Germany instead of in USA. I bought the 250ml sized oil bottles for my Rohloff, even after paying for shipping from Europe it cost me about 60 percent of what I would have had to pay if I bought it on Amazon here in USA.

The USA suppliers have to pay a duty of something like 4 percent to import Rohloff hubs, so their costs will be a bit higher than my costs to buy direct. But 4 percent is a tiny number compared to what they end up charging when they sell them.

One of my neighbors is a bike mechanic, my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen, that says how rare they are. When I bike toured in Iceland for a month, I saw eight Rohloff hubs on other touring bikes, they are much more common on bikes ridden by Europeans.

Your other points, some I sort of agree, some I do not, but I am limiting my comments to cost issues for brevity.
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Old 06-26-18, 05:28 PM
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https://www.lightbicycle.com/carbon-mountain-bike

$195 plus shipping
from China, for carbon rims.
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Old 06-26-18, 08:13 PM
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I don't know that I would ever want to tour on a carbon rim unless maybe the Santa Cruz Reserve Carbon wheels and even then I probably wouldn't want them for touring. Most carbon rims are drilled for lower spoke counts or are maybe wider than I want. I also certainly wouldn't do a Rolhoff in carbon. 3 cross generally doesn't work but you if you are willing to pay a mechanic to play around and then buy more spokes when they try a bunch of stuff and it just won't work.

Me if I were going for a Rolhoff I would probably do a nice 2x with Sapim Strong spokes and Secure Lock nipples to probably something like a HED Belgium Plus or Velocity Dyad rim. I would also probably run a belt but I probably wouldn't use it as my world touring bike but as a really sweet commuter but who knows maybe I might change my mind after getting more time to ride one.
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Old 06-26-18, 09:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN

One of my neighbors is a bike mechanic, my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen, that says how rare they are. When I bike toured in Iceland for a month, I saw eight Rohloff hubs on other touring bikes, they are much more common on bikes ridden by Europeans.
On the Divide I saw several other Rohloffs, all ridden by Euros.
I've had mine for ten years, for the first five I never saw another, recently I've started to see a few, but they are still very rare.
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Old 06-26-18, 09:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Rohloff are quite rare in USA, in part because almost all bike components in USA go through so many hands by the time you buy it that the price becomes really high. I think I saved about $500 by buying my Rohloff from Germany instead of in USA. I bought the 250ml sized oil bottles for my Rohloff, even after paying for shipping from Europe it cost me about 60 percent of what I would have had to pay if I bought it on Amazon here in USA.

The USA suppliers have to pay a duty of something like 4 percent to import Rohloff hubs, so their costs will be a bit higher than my costs to buy direct. But 4 percent is a tiny number compared to what they end up charging when they sell them.

One of my neighbors is a bike mechanic, my Rohloff is the only one he has ever seen, that says how rare they are. When I bike toured in Iceland for a month, I saw eight Rohloff hubs on other touring bikes, they are much more common on bikes ridden by Europeans.

Your other points, some I sort of agree, some I do not, but I am limiting my comments to cost issues for brevity.
Who, from Germany, do you get a Rohloff for $500USD? All the German online vendors I checked (bike24, bike-components.de etc) list for 800-1000 Euros sans VAT and sans shipping.
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Old 06-27-18, 05:47 AM
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Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti
Who, from Germany, do you get a Rohloff for $500USD? All the German online vendors I checked (bike24, bike-components.de etc) list for 800-1000 Euros sans VAT and sans shipping.
I said I saved about $500, not paid $500. I bought it in spring 2013, at that time the cheapest I could find a Rohloff in USA was $1,500 USD but I bought it on-line from Germany. It was 876 Euros with shipping costs and that price included the special tool to remove the sprocket. I just checked my paperwork on the purchase which is how I know it was 876 but I am relying on memory for the actual cost in USD since I do not have a record of the currency conversion at that time. I also had to pay a currency conversion fee on my credit card.
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Old 06-27-18, 05:51 AM
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hmm. I'm about 3 weeks from flying to and touring Czech Republic/Germany border. Perhaps I should hope to find a deal on a Rohloff hub there and bring it back home?

Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I said I saved about $500, not paid $500. I bought it in spring 2013, at that time the cheapest I could find a Rohloff in USA was $1,500 USD but I bought it on-line from Germany. It was 876 Euros with shipping costs and that price included the special tool to remove the sprocket. I just checked my paperwork on the purchase which is how I know it was 876 but I am relying on memory for the actual cost in USD since I do not have a record of the currency conversion at that time. I also had to pay a currency conversion fee on my credit card.
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Old 06-27-18, 07:41 AM
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I can't comment much about Rohloff, but carbon rims work fine. Unless you are one of those retrogrouches constantly worries about stuff might go wrong. I've been touring with carbon parts since 2006 and I haven't had many issues. However, $500 is a big investment to put in on your bike, maybe just stick to metal bits since baggage handlers do more damages to my bike than anything else.
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Old 06-27-18, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus
hmm. I'm about 3 weeks from flying to and touring Czech Republic/Germany border. Perhaps I should hope to find a deal on a Rohloff hub there and bring it back home?
If you buy one in Europe, you will have to pay VAT of around 20% (depends on country). When you mail order from outside the EU, the VAT is deducted from the price.
There may be a way to get the VAT refunded when you leave, it would be good to know that before you go.
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Old 06-27-18, 09:09 AM
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Originally Posted by PedalingWalrus
hmm. I'm about 3 weeks from flying to and touring Czech Republic/Germany border. Perhaps I should hope to find a deal on a Rohloff hub there and bring it back home?
That could be a very good idea, but keep in mind that you pay the VAT at the store and have to get that refunded later. I do not know the process for that, my larger purchases from Europe were shipped to my home. If you can arrange for them to ship it to your home for you and avoid the VAT in the first place, that would make the VAT refund easier and it would make your luggage lighter on your trip home.

There are several German on line retailers that have very good discounted prices. You might not see such a price in a retail store. If you plan on buying while there, you could research the prices while you are still at home so you know what a good deal is when you see it. Czech Republic has their own currency, but I suspect you were thinking of looking while in Germany.

When I bought my Rohloff, US Postal Service dropped it off at my door. I was surprised, I expected to pay them customs duty but did not need to. You might have to pay duty if you bring it home on the plane, I do not know what the value cut off is. A couple weeks before my Rohloff arrived, I had to pay customs duty to the mail carrier when he delivered my new bike frame from the UK, that in part is why I expected to have to pay duty.

Rohloffs at the time I bought mine came in:
- 32 or 36 spoke
- Silver, red or black.
- Hollow axle for quick release or solid nutted axle.
- Internal gear cable or EX box.
- Rim brake or disc brake version.
- Torque arrester type.

Some of the above like color are personal preference, but the others are determined in advance based on your frame design. If you have not decided which bike this goes on, you need to decide that first to make sure that you have the right hub configuration for your frame.

I bought mine five years ago, now I think they have fat bike versions and maybe through axle versions too. A large internet seller can keep an inventory of the various options or they can get it quickly to ship to you, but you might have trouble finding a retail store that has the exact configuration you are looking for in stock.
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