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-   -   2019 Salsa Marrakesh. (https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/1156092-2019-salsa-marrakesh.html)

AlanK 09-21-18 08:10 PM

2019 Salsa Marrakesh.
 
The 2019 models keep coming. The only significant change seems to be replacing the Brooks saddle with the WTB Volt 142. Considering how polarizing Brooks saddles are I don't know whether to consider this an upgrade, downgrade, or neither.

Overall it's still essentially the same bike: great for touring and a capable all-arounder if a bit of a tank:

https://salsacycles.com/bikes/marrak...arrakesh_deore

J.Higgins 09-22-18 04:13 AM

Notice how everything you shop for now is smaller and you pay the same price? Prices keep rising and packages of food are smaller. Its just another corporate Salsa move to charge more and pay less. A WTB saddle probably costs them 10% of what a Brooks costs them. Oh, they'll have a good reason for why they made the switch, probably blaming it on sales or customer preference, but in the end its probably just to squeeze more blood out of the turnip.

dannwilliams 09-22-18 05:54 AM


Originally Posted by NoControl (Post 20579707)
Notice how everything you shop for now is smaller and you pay the same price? Prices keep rising and packages of food are smaller. Its just another corporate Salsa move to charge more and pay less. A WTB saddle probably costs them 10% of what a Brooks costs them. Oh, they'll have a good reason for why they made the switch, probably blaming it on sales or customer preference, but in the end its probably just to squeeze more blood out of the turnip.

I bought my Marrakesh this past April. I was stoked about getting a Brooks as standard equipment but understood they are not for everyone. After motor than 500mioes of saddle time, I swapped it for a WTB Volt. My a$$ is much happier! My thinking is not the $$ difference, rather a Brooks is not the saddle for everyone. I also am happy with the WTB Silverline on my Salsa Colossal, made it easy to find a new one for the Marrakesh.

IPassGas 09-22-18 07:46 AM

Silly for touring. A curved fork reduces road vibration. But I guess the disk brakes are sexy looking.

revcp 09-22-18 07:54 AM

42mm tires,
 

Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 20579845)
Silly for touring. A curved fork reduces road vibration. But I guess the disk brakes are sexy looking.

even at 60 tpi, will dampen the road chatter as much as fork rake.

katsup 09-22-18 08:00 AM

They chose a nice color.
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...fb6f7279e9.jpg

fietsbob 09-22-18 09:32 AM

One major builder uses Physics-Logic, and so Curved blades , get No Disc.
Reasoning; every time you hit the front brake you un curve the left blade ,
more than the right,
because of the forces of the brake applied on the left blade.
so wheel twists a little.. within the fork, etc.

So stiff and straight is your tradeoff for having disc brakes..

fietsbob 09-22-18 09:38 AM

and Ass to Saddle.. best match of , cannot be done at a factory level since they have no control
over the shape of the pelvis of the buyer..


:innocent:

mstateglfr 09-22-18 10:44 AM


Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 20579845)
Silly for touring. A curved fork reduces road vibration. But I guess the disk brakes are sexy looking.

how is this claim still going on?
a curved fork does not absorb more vibration.
a curved fork and straight fork with the same rake will feel the same. Both will absorb the same vibration and spring the same amount.

further, the wall thickness of the blades is quite important. A 1mm blade under a 125# rider is excessive and would feel harsh compared to a .8mm blade, and thats regardless of if its straight or curved.

as has been mentioned too, tire width and pressure play a big role on vibration damping.

This is coming from well experienced and respected builders. Sachs. Llewellyn. Colnago. Grant Peterson of all people even acknowledges the spring and damping of a curved blade is a myth.

with the same rake and tube diameter/thickness, forks will perform the same- straight or curved.

IPassGas 09-22-18 11:50 AM


Originally Posted by mstateglfr (Post 20580056)
how is this claim still going on?

a curved fork does not absorb more vibration.

a curved fork and straight fork with the same rake will feel the same. Both will absorb the same vibration and spring the same amount.


further, the wall thickness of the blades is quite important. A 1mm blade under a 125# rider is excessive and would feel harsh compared to a .8mm blade, and thats regardless of if its straight or curved.


as has been mentioned too, tire width and pressure play a big role on vibration damping.


This is coming from well experienced and respected builders. Sachs. Llewellyn. Colnago. Grant Peterson of all people even acknowledges the spring and damping of a curved blade is a myth.


with the same rake and tube diameter/thickness, forks will perform the same- straight or curved.

True, if the fork is properly designed to flex. But, the norm on mass production bikes is straight stiff forks to work properly with disk brakes. This article is appropriate

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...des-dont-flex/


Perhaps, the Marrakesh has some flex, good for Salsa. But then a rim brake would allow a fork with more flex and more shock absorption for touring.

mstateglfr 09-22-18 12:20 PM


Originally Posted by IPassGas (Post 20580135)
True, if the fork is properly designed to flex. But, the norm on mass production bikes is straight stiff forks to work properly with disk brakes. This article is appropriate

https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/...des-dont-flex/


Perhaps, the Marrakesh has some flex, good for Salsa. But then a rim brake would allow a fork with more flex and more shock absorption for touring.

yup, the Heine test. I dont disagree thst forks flex. I accept thst they flex. The video bike has a French bend on the fork which is, for all intents and purposes, not seen anywhere on production bikes or even handbuilt bikes. That style is so rare it shouldn't be used as a discussion point.

the fork in that YouTube video flexes. Absolutely. And a straight fork at thst same rake would also flex. I doubt any straight forks have 65mm of rake though since that much rake isnt a popular design style, so there is then no test to show the flex.

a 45mm rake(much more common on drop bar bikes) will absorb the same road chatter on a straight blade fork as a curved fork.

as for disc brakes, well there are still curved disc forks, albeit few options.
if the tubing is the same, a straight fork will flex and absorb the same as a curved fork.

the test was basically written about as a passive advertisement for what he sells- kesai tubing.
there were no numbers about rake of each fork. Why not? It was even mentioned in the discussion section, but not addressed again.


well at least i answered my rhetorical question of how this misinformation continues to be repeated- its because of simplistic studies(by an otherwise excellent team who typically sets up fantastic studies) and also because many dont understand the numerous working parts of a comfortable fork.

saddlesores 09-22-18 12:28 PM

but they sure are pretty...


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6f84f62524.jpg

tyrion 09-22-18 12:44 PM


Originally Posted by mstateglfr (Post 20580165)
yup, the Heine test. I dont disagree thst forks flex. I accept thst they flex. The video bike has a French bend on the fork which is, for all intents and purposes, not seen anywhere on production bikes or even handbuilt bikes. That style is so rare it shouldn't be used as a discussion point.

Wouldn't this Soma Grand Randonneur fork be considered having a French bend?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2569267d4c.jpg

(Serious question. I've wondered if that fork would have more shock absorption than most forks.)

fietsbob 09-22-18 12:46 PM

BITD, For Cobbled/ farm roads the fork blades had a Tight radius J bend at the tip,
and on the nicer ones, 531 fork tubes were quite thin wall ..
so they did take up some road roughness.. that was like in the 50's..

interestingly the German Tout Terrain Forks had 1 blade larger on the left,
so as to compensate for the additional forces, of the caliper on the fork tip.


...

AlanK 09-22-18 01:56 PM


Originally Posted by NoControl (Post 20579707)
Notice how everything you shop for now is smaller and you pay the same price? Prices keep rising and packages of food are smaller. Its just another corporate Salsa move to charge more and pay less. A WTB saddle probably costs them 10% of what a Brooks costs them. Oh, they'll have a good reason for why they made the switch, probably blaming it on sales or customer preference, but in the end its probably just to squeeze more blood out of the turnip.

I'm actually surprised bike companies aren't having to cut more corners with all the recent trade issues between the US and Asia. Many speculated it could lead to significant inflation for overseas made products, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case with bikes. So far if there are any prices increases seem nominal.

Your assertion that the WTB saddle costs 10% of the Brooks is hyperbolic fallacy. The WTB typically retails for about $80, a standard mens Brooks is about $110. Many riders don't seem to like the Brooks anyway.

Do some research before espousing counterfactual, ideological rhetoric.

mstateglfr 09-22-18 02:38 PM


Originally Posted by tyrion (Post 20580195)
Wouldn't this Soma Grand Randonneur fork be considered having a French bend?

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2569267d4c.jpg

(Serious question. I've wondered if that fork would have more shock absorption than most forks.)

yes. That has 65mm of rake, I think.

J.Higgins 09-22-18 06:11 PM


Originally Posted by AlanK (Post 20580255)
I'm actually surprised bike companies aren't having to cut more corners with all the recent trade issues between the US and Asia. Many speculated it could lead to significant inflation for overseas made products, but so far that doesn't seem to be the case with bikes. So far if there are any prices increases seem nominal.

You assertion that the WTB saddle costs 10% of the Brooks is hyperbolic fallacy. The WTB typically retails for about $80, a standard mens Brooks is about $110. Many riders don't seem to like the Brooks anyway.

Do some research before espousing counterfactual, ideological rhetoric.

Ouch, okay. :o

DropBarFan 09-22-18 10:20 PM

Looks like a good touring bike & I like the color. IMO it makes sense for better-quality bikes to include cheapo pedals & saddle since so many riders have their special preferences.

saddlesores 09-23-18 01:21 AM


Originally Posted by NoControl (Post 20580530)
Ouch, okay. :o


can't necessarily equate the retail price to the wholesale price, nor to the unit cost paid by a high-volume distributor.



then consider some of these are made in-house or under contract to the brand/assembly......that 10% hyperbolic fantasy may not be so fantastic after all.

AlanK 09-23-18 04:57 PM


Originally Posted by saddlesores (Post 20580875)
can't necessarily equate the retail price to the wholesale price, nor to the unit cost paid by a high-volume distributor.



then consider some of these are made in-house or under contract to the brand/assembly......that 10% hyperbolic fantasy may not be so fantastic after all.

That might be true in some cases, but considering WTB saddles are stock on many different bikes by different manufacturers it's highly improbable the saddle on the Marrakesh is made 'in-house'. It costs less than the Brooks, but no way it's 90% less. That's just NC being hyperbolic.

Spoonrobot 09-23-18 08:55 PM


Originally Posted by mstateglfr (Post 20580056)
how is this claim still going on?
a curved fork does not absorb more vibration.
a curved fork and straight fork with the same rake will feel the same. Both will absorb the same vibration and spring the same amount.

further, the wall thickness of the blades is quite important. A 1mm blade under a 125# rider is excessive and would feel harsh compared to a .8mm blade, and thats regardless of if its straight or curved.

as has been mentioned too, tire width and pressure play a big role on vibration damping.

This is coming from well experienced and respected builders. Sachs. Llewellyn. Colnago. Grant Peterson of all people even acknowledges the spring and damping of a curved blade is a myth.

This is almost entirely wrong. Testing both - static and dynamic - shows that curved forks, even a moderate curve to rake the fork around 45mm, deflect much more than a straight leg fork. And the more the fork legs are raked, the more compliant the fork is. Steel straight leg forks are for ease of manufacture or aesthetics and are a negative for ride quality. There have been numerous tests showing this - Rinard's tests as well as Heine's tests in BQ Vol. 6 #3 . It's also easy to double blind test for yourself. The lever arm for curved forks is in a different spot than straight blade forks and gives much more compliance.

Straight blade forks flex sure but they flex much less and in different places than curved blade forks.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...84d198f724.jpg



with the same rake and tube diameter/thickness, forks will perform the same- straight or curved
Impossible, a raked fork will not have the same tube diameter or thickness as a straight blade fork due to how the legs are bent. So in addition to the difference due to the curve there is always a tubing issue as well.

What's also fun is that it's possible to back into seeing the different fork flex from different fork rake by mounting low rider racks that attach at the drop out and the mid-fork eyelets. On a curved form the change in compliance is extremely obvious - the fork gets much stiffer as the primary area of compliance is triangulated and allows little flex once a rack is attached. On a straight blade fork there is very little change with low rider racks as the compliance is almost entirely up near the fork crown where the tubes are much larger in diameter and much stiffer due to proximity to the crown.

mstateglfr 09-23-18 09:40 PM

Ill let all the famed builders know they are wrong at our next gathering.


also- I receive BQ, so please don't think I dislike the company, but at what point can at least some of their testing be viewed as confirmation bias and performed to market their product?

also, I'm at a loss on the rinard test. Ive read it before- it shows forks deflect. I just googled it because i admittedly dont have an eidetic memory, and again came away with the article being about how forks deflect under a static weight.
ok then.

I was going to post this in the earlier response, but regretfully didnt. The fact that this is such an unclear point(and it is unclear, regardless of claiming it isnt) should give pause to claiming a curved fork absorbs more vibration.
I hate take a page out of the lazy anti climate change folk, but if there is conflicting views, then it isnt clear cut.

All my road, gravel, and touring forks are curved, so I would love to be able to confidently say they absorb more road vibration. Just waiting for some good testing. It's such a meaningless thing though at this point(in reference to how bikes are built now), I doubt it will be done.

Spoonrobot 09-24-18 11:27 AM

Trolling around Paceline it appears the claim from Grant Peterson also mentioned his evidence of lack of fork flex included paint chipping off if forks did flex appreciably. Which is hilarious, would you be so kind as to share the article if you have it available? I looked in the index of Rivendell Readers and was not able to find anything.

But just to make sure this shakes out fair I will claim Dave Kirk as being in the curved camp as well as every French constructeur.

mstateglfr 09-24-18 08:47 PM

Yeah, I've also read that Kirk said curved forks flex more.

DropBarFan 09-24-18 09:17 PM

Interesting that Colnago says straight forks absorb as well as curved: old Columbus steel Colnagos had the prettiest fork bend which by itself probably sold a lot of frames. Curved vs straight fork argument will become moot after a major US bike maker produces a drop-bar version of Euro aluminum frame/suspension fork bikes. For same weight as trad steel one gets better handling/comfort/safety. Suspension fork also allows one to use narrower faster tires. Susp fork can be adjusted for rider weight while hard forks are an inherent compromise.

mstateglfr 09-26-18 09:02 AM


Originally Posted by DropBarFan (Post 20584214)
Curved vs straight fork argument will become moot after a major US bike maker produces a drop-bar version of Euro aluminum frame/suspension fork bikes. For same weight as trad steel one gets better handling/comfort/safety. Suspension fork also allows one to use narrower faster tires. Susp fork can be adjusted for rider weight while hard forks are an inherent compromise.

Got pics of what you are talking about?

It sounds like bikes from the 90s by Schwinn and Cannondale. The '98 SchwinnCircuit had a RockShox Ruby fork.https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f72511d545.jpg
is this what you mean?

DropBarFan 09-27-18 09:57 PM


Originally Posted by mstateglfr (Post 20586769)
Got pics of what you are talking about?

It sounds like bikes from the 90s by Schwinn and Cannondale. The '98 SchwinnCircuit had a RockShox Ruby fork.https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f72511d545.jpg
is this what you mean?

I was thinking more of a drop-bar version of bike like Kalkhoff Endeavour Pro. BTW today on 50mm-tire Disc Trucker in the rain I ran over a small invisible pothole & wow, one hand almost came off the handlebar. Susp fork would have absorbed that w/o panic. Susp fork can cruise faster over bumpier sections & is esp safer IMO on descents where roads/paths are often the roughest.

https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b2cdd25c56.jpg

1-track-mind 11-02-18 05:13 PM

I think this tread drifted a bit, but can someone comment about the overall performance of the bike other than the saddle and front fork.
One dimensional ? Heavy ?

AlanK 11-04-18 10:40 PM


Originally Posted by 1-track-mind (Post 20645643)
I think this tread drifted a bit, but can someone comment about the overall performance of the bike other than the saddle and front fork.
One dimensional ? Heavy ?

Funny how that happens isn't it? :foo:

The Marrakesh is great as a dedicated all-road touring bike. I don't know if one-dimensional is an apt description, but it's probably not a good option as an all-arounder because it's pretty heavy and isn't very nimble. The sliding drop-out enable a variable wheel-base, so it can be made more nimble. The bottom-bracket is low like most dedicated touring bikes. This makes it more stable while loaded, though there isn't much clearance.

The Marrakesh would probably be one of my top considerations if I only wanted a dedicated touring bike, but there are other touring bikes that work better as all-around bikes like the Kona Sutra.

J.Higgins 11-05-18 10:58 AM


Originally Posted by DropBarFan (Post 20589590)
Susp fork can cruise faster over bumpier sections & is esp safer IMO on descents where roads/paths are often the roughest.

This I agree with, but how does a suspension fork compare with a rigid when putting watts to the pavement?


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