jefnvk

So I finally bought a standard Brooks B17 this morning, found for $70 at the REI Garage Sale with the note "Rode once, too hard, didn't want to take time to break in". Fast forward to the second REI I went to this morning, and they had a cutaway B17 in the bin for $60 with more or less the same note, that I didn't buy.

I've never ridden a cutaway saddle before. What are the differences between the cutaway and non-cutaway? Is it a massively noticeable difference. Wondering if I shouldn't go back and buy the second as well, as I've been wanting more saddles with bag loops for my Carradice..

tyrion

I think the cutaway versions won't hold up as well under heavier riders. But for $60, I'd still get it.

fietsbob

Ive been Faking the Bag mount and using Italian saddles.. ( Avocet was made by selle Italia)
The Minoura , behind the saddle double water bottle cage mount works well
the 2 arms fit right through the strap holes, and I use P clips
screwed to the upper threaded insert, around the dowel..

Doug64

I have used a Brooks Imperial on my touring bike for about 2 years (about 4000 miles), and still have mixed feelings about it. Recently I got a pretty bad blister because my saddle was positioned a little off center when reassembling my bike at the start of a tour. Not the saddles fault. My problem is getting the saddle position dialed in to my riding position. The B17 saddles have relatively short rails, limiting the amount of for and aft adjustment. I am still playing with seatpost setback to fine tune my setup. Other than the one case mentioned above, it has been a fairly comfortable saddle.

I have never ridden a "solid" B17, but I rode a Brooks Pro for years. The Pro was noticeably harder. However, I think that is like comparing oranges and grapefruits. At $60 it would be worth a try, and if you don't like it you can sell it at little of no loss.

Tandem Tom

I have 3 Brooks B17's on different bikes. I have modified all 3 with cut outs and on 2 of them along with my wife's I have changed out the steel rivets to the copper ones. The B17 on my touring bike is also laced.
All the saddles are much more comfortable with these modifications. We just returned last week from 2 months of touring in Europe. Once again very comfortable!

jefnvk

Went back and snagged it. Guess I can do my own side by side comparison next spring to know how to eventually outfit the rest of the stable!

seedsbelize 

I've not ridden cutouts yet either, but I'm about to imperialize an old Fujita Belt saddle. At that price I would have bought them both too.

djb

I've never ridden on a cut out type seat, and have always had concerns about how the defined edges of the cutouts would be and if they could be an issue, specifically like in Doug's situation.

what I would recommend is not putting on any proofide, the previous owners may have, and its not good to overdo it as it can oversoften the leather.

be very attentive to small seat positional changes, like any seats , a tiny position change can make all the difference.

having both will be fun to compare. A few years ago I went to buy one used Brooks, a C17, and the guy had other like new ones. I ended up leaving with three of them, the c17, a b17 and a sprung b17. Figured I'd sell the ones I didn't like or use, but even after some of them sitting in a drawer for ages, they are all on bikes now and all have their merits.

oh, also I would NOT muck around with the tension thing. I have ridden lots of kms on my various leather Brooks and really haven't had to tighten them more than just a wee bit.

happy comparing and making small adjustments. Like other seats, mine work best pretty much level.

davester

If you are susceptible to genital numbness due to saddle pressure on the perineum then you need a cutout saddle. I'm one of those people and after suffering for many years, getting a cutout saddle was an epiphany. Numbness be gone! I am extremely happy with my B17 Imperial. I do however think that it may not last as long as a non-Imperial since there's less material to hold its shape. Note that the Imperials come with lacing holes along the sides to help hold the shape of the saddle.

Note that I frequently ride century or longer rides, which is where numbness becomes apparent. If you don't ride very far (i.e. 40 miles or less at a time), then you may never notice.

djb

Jeff, I edited what I wrote earlier, saw that it was missing a "not"

I had meant to write " I would NOT recommend tightening the tension bolt"

my experience has stown over the years that by not oversoftening the leather with too much proofide, and not letting the seats get rained on and ridden wet, which will stretch the leather, my seats have minimal sag, and so haven't needed tightening other than the smallest amount.

basically while it's great that the leather takes the shape of your keester where the sit bones are, you want rest of the leather area to remain in more or less its original position.

I recommend getting a Brooks rain cover. They redesigned them a few years back and they protect the under part of the saddle, as there is more material than the older model I have. I gave my wife my first Brooks last year and so bought a new cover for her. She really likes the seat and once she got the position dialed in, it's been her most comfortable bike seat ever.

Tandem Tom

Since I am also a woodworker I have very sharp marking knives. You can also use an Exacto knife. I drilled the holes for the lacing.

jefnvk

The previous owner did put on the proofide, at least half of the little pack that comes with the saddle (the rest is conveniently in a plastic baggy in the box ). The only adjustment I made was to the Imperial, to just snug it up a touch. At the full out setting that it was at, the bolt was a little loose, there is half of a thread showing past the nut now. The standard looks like it just came off the shelf, can barely see where it was even clamped.

I gotta say, $20 for the REI membership to get these deals was money well spent! Just wish they'd go back to putting bikes in the sale!

wschruba

I've had both--found the Imperial 'softer', as in, more flexible...which is not surprising considering the large hole in the middle/need to lace it together.

From a use standpoint, no difference. Maybe a bit cooler in the summer.

J.Higgins 

I have nightmares about wasps stinging my taint through the cutout hole.

mev

My experience:
1. I typically put the B17 without cutouts on my touring bikes.
2. In 2014, I brought back my "India bike" to the US to get it ready for a long 2016 tour. I then upgraded the saddle to a B17. Somehow I wasn't quite paying attention and ended up with a B17 with a cutout.
3. My first extended trip with the bike was in Armenia/Georgia in 2015 and the saddle wasn't quite comfortable. Not quite sure what was going on. However on return, I did a more careful positioning of the saddle matching another bike - adjusting both front/back as well as tilt.
4. That particular bike and saddle was then comfortable and I used the bike on a majority of my ride across the Americas (27,000km of which my guess is >20,000km was on this bike/saddle combination).
So for me at least, the saddle positioning was a more important factor than whether it had a cutout or not. I think it does "flex" a bit more, though some of my other bikes without cutouts have far more mileage on them and have correspondingly sagged a bit more than this one.

robow

I have ridden standard B17's for 20+ years but 2 years ago when I found I needed another Brooks for an additional bike, I bought an Imperial and switched it over to my touring bike. Truthfully, I can't tell that much difference between the two. The Imperial might be a little softer and might sag beneath a touch more but both are are comfortable.

JaccoW

I've always had perineum problems with regular saddles and the Imperial was my first one.

I currently have a Lepper Tourer on my touring bike which is stiffer than a B17 and has a shaped leather "cutout".

djb

Jacco, I wonder what "vegetable leather" is?

interesting technique of molding the depression into the form of the "leather". I imagine this non animal product allows for them to do this with heat and moisture?
How long as this company been making seats with this material? I assume it is a Dutch company?

JaccoW

The Dutch translation is vegetable tanned leather. So my guess is they missed a word there.

Most leather is tanned using chromium salts but vegetable tanning is making a comeback in lots of industries because even though they are more expensive to produce they end to be softer and have a lot less impact on the environment. Chromium tanned leathers is harder wearing in some applications. I already knew a bit about this from my time selling hiking boots at a outdoor gear retailer but I found this an interesting read on the topic. EDIT: More on the difference in chromium tanning.

Lepper is a very old company, almost as old as Brooks and lots of classic Dutch bikes still use them.
From the top of my head they use heat and a mold to shape them and they tend to use thicker leather than modern day Brooks.

phughes

Interesting seat. Is there any tension adjustment? Curious how it would be very long term without it. I also wonder how the edges of the channel will feel after the seat breaks in some. As long as that never becomes an issue, it looks as if it would be a very comfortable seat.

How long have you had the seat? How does it feel?

djb

thanks Jacco for the explanation. Hope it is comfortable for you and lasts a good long time.
cheers

jefnvk

@djb FWIW, the Brooks are labelled as vegetable tanned as well.

Those Leppers look interesting, albeit more or less the same price as Brooks. Are they common in the Netherlands?

davester

Brooks is definitely not the only game in town. There's https://rivetcycleworks.com, https://selleanatomica.com, and I think quite a few more. I've only tried Brooks myself but I've been tempted to try some of these other brands.

JaccoW

It has a regular allen key bolt on the inside.


I've had the saddle since soring this year and put maybe 1000km on it with days of up to 100km.
It has been very comfortable with some perineum pressure when I ride it in just jeans without cycling shorts. But I believe that might also be because of me sitting too far forwards on the bike. I notice too much pressure on my wrists so I have ordered stem with less reach.

Bonus shot:

JaccoW

I can show you some side by side shots later this week but maybe I'll open a new thread for that.

As for other leather saddles, there is also Gilles Berthoud and Spa Cycles Nidd (B17 alternative with thicker leather).

Fun fact, Lepper used to make the Lepper Voyager that had a Reynolds 531 frame @294 grams. The frames had a tendency to break though.