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36 or 40 hole hub?

Old 01-12-19, 06:35 AM
  #1  
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36 or 40 hole hub?

Been looking for a standard small flange 36 or 40 hole REAR hub with cartridge bearings that does not cost over 200 bucks. Must be silver, polished preferred. Any ideas where to find one? Cassette 10-11s or threaded for freewheel, makes no difference.
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Old 01-12-19, 07:09 AM
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suzue hubs,

https://www.bikemania.biz/suzue-clas...8aAvGGEALw_wcB
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Old 01-12-19, 08:37 AM
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novatek. taiwan production. can be found rebranded with dozens of labels.

you can get the freehub body in alu or steel. this'n on ebay has the steel freehub, 4xcartridges, silver. $45 with shipping.



https://www.ebay.com/itm/Novatec-D04...F7_g:rk:8:pf:0

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Old 01-12-19, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Been looking for a standard small flange 36 or 40 hole REAR hub with cartridge bearings that does not cost over 200 bucks. Must be silver, polished preferred. Any ideas where to find one? Cassette 10-11s or threaded for freewheel, makes no difference.
Velo Orange Grand Cru. It doesnít appear that they come in 40 hole but if you use a triple butted spoke like the DT Alpine III, you get the same strength and durability as a 40 hole with a 36. This article has a good explaination. I wouldnít put the strength differences at +10 spokes as in the article but it does make the wheel a lot stronger.
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Old 01-12-19, 11:02 AM
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Is there anything other than the usual knock off hubs as listed above? This is for a touring bike and the ability to have repairs done most anywhere is needed, plus strong reliability. DT Swiss like quality engineering. If they had a 36 hole 350 that would be the ticket once the finished was striped off, but they only go up to 32 spokes.

Have looked through QBP and J&B, but don't see anything as described. Used Phil Wood hubs will work, however there is nothing locally. I don't do ebay so that is not an option.

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Old 01-12-19, 11:58 AM
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If , as I expect , you want a freehub, consider an axle lrength modified Shimano tandem hub for the 40 or 48 spoke holes

they ship as a 145, but buying a regular 135 axle and less spacers on the left end will get you on the road.. think long term , you can easily replace the driver,
not so easy if proprietary..

My Mid 80s Specialized Expedition came with a Suzue/Sanshin(?) Hub set 40 hole freewheel 6 speed..
at the time you could get a 40 /40 front and rear pair..

Broke up the pair with my Co Worker, I kept the front, built a Phil 48.. 126, kept the 6 speed freewheel spec, used friction bar end shifters..


Rim was Mavic's Mod 4.... 40 & 48 hole a double ferule double wall.. 622-35 tires.

I now see the tourist repair end,, too
Damage a rear rim you are more likely to get a spare 36 spoke wheel , sooner..
40/48 will be special order and a delay is inevitable for the repair



...

Last edited by fietsbob; 01-12-19 at 12:14 PM.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:00 PM
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I purchased new 48 hole front and back PW hubs at a great price on ebay. They show up - but only occasionally.
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Old 01-12-19, 12:18 PM
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48/48 pair will mean you have a spare rear rim, and you just buy a new front wheel .. when you damage the rear..
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Old 01-12-19, 12:22 PM
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Hub width of 130,135,142,148,150 or 157?
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Old 01-12-19, 12:27 PM
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My vote is for Phil hubs. Also 36 spokes as that is FAR more available in distant places then 40 hole rims are. Andy
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Old 01-12-19, 12:50 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Been looking for a standard small flange 36 or 40 hole REAR hub with cartridge bearings that does not cost over 200 bucks. Must be silver, polished preferred. Any ideas where to find one? Cassette 10-11s or threaded for freewheel, makes no difference.
Assuming 135mm OLD and rim brakes, Hope (UK) makes one, but polished silver version is hard to find in USA. So, Germany (select country/language for accurate pricing) :

https://www.bike24.de/1.php?content=...c%5B18407%5D=0

If you drop the cartridge bearing requirement, you can still get XT and LX level hubs in silver pretty cheap:

https://www.bike24.de/1.php?content=...c%5B18407%5D=0

https://www.bike24.de/1.php?content=...c%5B18407%5D=0

You'll likely find more German/UK/etc sellers with similar prices/availability. If you raise budget, then Chris King, Industry Nine, Phil Wood and White Industries have desired hub. Personally I'd go with XT hubs, they're a great value, and wheels are ultimately just another disposable bicycle part. You can buy a lifetime supply of XT hubs for the cost of a single boutique maker hub. If you need a disc brake capable hub, or a non 135 QR hub, then your choices are even further limited.
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Old 01-12-19, 01:20 PM
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Deeper rim more effective than more spokes. Stiffness of rim with depth goes up much more rapidly with depth than with number of spokes. 32-40 is a small percentage. When a rim doubles in depth, stiffness goes up by a factor of 4. Thus our 370 lb. tandem (all up touring weight) tours perfectly well on 36H deep rims with 18g CX-Ray spokes. No rim deformation or spoke breakage even on cobbles. Run the strongest rear hub you can find at your budget and just use a deep rim. We run Kinlin XC279 rims on CK hubs. That rim is both wide and deep, great for touring tires, That's a killer combination but probably overkill for what one really needs in terms of a hub.
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Old 01-12-19, 01:28 PM
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36h is plenty, unless you're on a tandem, or if you and/or your gear is particularly heavy. I tour on 32h (front and rear) and my rims don't go out of true over the course of a 5,000 km tour.

As a few others have mentioned, it's also a lot easier to find replacement parts for 36h, since 40h is uncommon. 32h is generally even easier, but I understand choosing 36h for peace of mind, especially for the rear, especially if you're a big guy.

It's not a bad idea to go with 36h rear, 32h front, but I simply got a good deal on a 32h wheelset, so I went with that.
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Old 01-12-19, 02:07 PM
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I like using a 40 spoke rear wheel whenever possible. This is not an opinion based on touring mind you, but I always load down the bike around the city and have a habit of breaking spoke heads on the drive side. The old Norco Magnum touring had a 36/40 split as factory standard.
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Old 01-12-19, 10:06 PM
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My fat arse and all my gear use 32h hand built wheels with Paul hubs, Sapim Strong spokes and SecureLock nipples on WTB Frequency CX rims with no problems. Granted Paul doesn't make the cassette hubs anymore but White Industries makes fine hubs in different drillings that would dandy for a touring bike. Maybe if I was world touring would I go 36h but even then I probably wouldn't. If I needed a new spoke I could get a new spoke and if I needed a bunch of spokes, that sounds like a new wheel or rebuilding the hub into a new rim and I would probably have an easier time find a 32h rim these days.
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Old 01-12-19, 11:06 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Is there anything other than the usual knock off hubs as listed above? This is for a touring bike and the ability to have repairs done most anywhere is needed, plus strong reliability. ...

what's your intended usage? i've been using the novateks for years now, moderate load, on and off road. had one set of bearings go out on tour - but that's due to riding in the mud during the monsson, and the carpy cartridges installed for the chinese market. you get better quality overseas. i now carry a spare set of cartridge bearings, weighs half an ounce or so.
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Old 01-13-19, 12:04 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Is there anything other than the usual knock off hubs as listed above? This is for a touring bike and the ability to have repairs done most anywhere is needed, plus strong reliability. DT Swiss like quality engineering. If they had a 36 hole 350 that would be the ticket once the finished was striped off, but they only go up to 32 spokes.

Have looked through QBP and J&B, but don't see anything as described. Used Phil Wood hubs will work, however there is nothing locally. I don't do ebay so that is not an option.
The Velo Orange hubs can be disassembled down to the bearings tool free. The bearings are readily available 6902 cassette bearings. For your suggest budget, they are a pretty good choice.

You could spend a bit more money and get White Industries MI5 for $140 front and about $330 for the rear. They are available in 36 and 40 spoke versions as well. They are high quality well built hubs. They just cost a bit more than what you asked for.
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Old 01-13-19, 12:40 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
Been looking for a standard small flange 36 or 40 hole REAR hub with cartridge bearings that does not cost over 200 bucks. Must be silver, polished preferred. Any ideas where to find one? Cassette 10-11s or threaded for freewheel, makes no difference.
you want a 10/11 speed cassette hub or a threaded freewheel hub- it makes no difference?

so confusing that it doesn't make a difference to you as the strength between the two is significant. Is an 11 speed threaded freewheel even made? And if so- why?

I mention this because you later mention field serviceability as a must. I would think freewheel would be immediately eliminated because of this.

also, options mentioned so far havent been knockoffs. They are actual brands.

a 40h hub on a modern semi-V(28mm deep) rim with common double butted spokes is massive overkill. No harm in it, I guess, but a well built 36h wheel with quality components(so not a freewheel) will handle fully loaded touring without issue.

the VO hubs already mentioned and dismissed are very good since they meet all your needs and are easily serviced.

good luck sorting this out.
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Old 01-13-19, 06:59 AM
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Regarding 40 vs 36, when I first got into touring I was shopping around for a 40 or 48 set of parts to build up a robust wheel for my first touring bike. And I quickly concluded that 36 was much more common. And if I needed a repair on a trip, 36 would likely be a huge advantage for sourcing repair parts. That was in 2004.

When I was building up another touring bike two years ago, I asked a mechanic that I respect what he thought of some of the various touring rear hubs out there. In my case it would use a disc. He said that for touring with a heavy load, he would only consider a steel axle hub with quarter inch ball bearings. He pretty much talked me out of the cartridge bearing hubs.

I bought a Shimano M756A rear hub at a fraction of the cost of some of the higher end hubs that need the bearing cartridges to be pressed in or out, etc. Since I had already used XT steel axle hubs (not the newer design hubs with Aluminum axles) on two other touring bikes that used rim brakes, I was already familiar with them.
https://si.shimano.com/pdfs/ev/EV-FH-M756-A-3295.pdf

I do not carry cone wrenches on a bike tour, but every bike shop has them and should have a jar of ball bearings on the shelf.

I do not regret my decision. Just thought I would throw out an opposing view.

But I tour with a friend that has always toured on a Phil rear hub, I understand your desire for cartridge bearings. Neither of us has had a hub problem.

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Old 01-13-19, 10:11 AM
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Hub failures from what I've seen over the years are pretty rare, though they can happen. I think you can lower the odds even more with just a little attention to somewhat regular maintenance. And for this reason, I like Shimano cup and cone hubs. And I too feel that a 36 spoke well built wheel is very adequate for all but the very heaviest rider with a ton of gear.

Btw, for those that insist on a steel axle, Wheels Manufacturing has replacement steel axles, both quick release and solid, that I'm sure are extremely well made as everything else I've seen of theirs is very high quality.
https://wheelsmfg.com/catalogsearch/...?q=steel++axle

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Old 01-13-19, 10:52 AM
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I can see where some confusion sets in when trying to figure out the end goal with freewheel or cassette hub. Let me explain. I am using Suntour Barcons and will be able to run anything on the rear, so the number of sprockets back there makes no difference. Figure every Podunk town in the USA has a Walmart now and if a freewheel blows out it can easily be replaced with the purchase of an el-cheapo bike.
Have had two touring bikes with 40 hole hubs, so figure may as well do it again, however I agree with the assessment that a deep profile rim coupled with 32 spokes is very durable as my long commute bike has just such an arrangement and has been literally perfect for nearly 10 years, so a 36 hole with a no so deep profile rim is a serious consideration, but I have no issues going either way. If a 40 hole rim is damaged out in the middle of nowhere, no question about it, there I sit until a replacement ships in. I am aiming for a more traditional looking rig, so a large profile rim is not desired and see now that a 36 hole rim is the better way to go.
After much consideration, Phil Wood is where I am headed, despite the cost, and have placed an inquiry with them. If they only had the JIS square taper BB available along with a 1" threadless headset the essentials would be all Phil. Going to be mix and match as far as this stuff goes.
Thanks for the input everyone.
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Old 01-13-19, 11:31 AM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
... If they only had the JIS square taper BB available ....
A UN-55 is pretty cheap and often lasts a long time, get one of those and then start watching for a good price later on the Phil that you want.

I put a UN-55 on my expedition bike, holding up quite nicely.
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Old 01-13-19, 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
When I was building up another touring bike two years ago, I asked a mechanic that I respect what he thought of some of the various touring rear hubs out there. In my case it would use a disc. He said that for touring with a heavy load, he would only consider a steel axle hub with quarter inch ball bearings. He pretty much talked me out of the cartridge bearing hubs.
Just to be clear, Iím not questioning your decision but I question the mechanics advice. I have no idea why some people are so adamantly against cartridge bearing hubs. The bearings in a 6904 bearing are about 1/4Ē in diameter. They support an axle that is unthreaded. Cutting threads into a tube is a stress riser and makes the axle more prone to breaking.

I would never choose loose bearings for long term wheels because they need to be serviced regularly to remove contamination. Thatís not because cartridge bearings canít be contaminated but because it doesnít matter if they are contaminated. You just replace them. Contamination in a loose bearing hub could lead to damage to the cups of the hub which would kill the wheel. The same canít be said for cartridge bearing hubs.

Additionally, many of the cartridge bearings hubs can be have the freehub removed without too much difficulty. This makes spoke replacement simple.
You are much more likely to need to replace a spoke than do anything to the hub while on tour.
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Old 01-13-19, 02:08 PM
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Done that

Originally Posted by Andrew R Stewart View Post
My vote is for Phil hubs. Also 36 spokes as that is FAR more available in distant places then 40 hole rims are. Andy

used a original design Phil freewheel hub on my bike, touring, foe a decade freewheel threaded now the Field Serviceable Axle offers a simple bearing replacement

I got a similar easy to replace bearings feature in a set of Bullseye hubs... they drop in a 6001. they and Phil are more a Medium flange . .







....
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Old 01-14-19, 03:02 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by cyccommute View Post


Just to be clear, Iím not questioning your decision but I question the mechanics advice. I have no idea why some people are so adamantly against cartridge bearing hubs. The bearings in a 6904 bearing are about 1/4Ē in diameter. They support an axle that is unthreaded. Cutting threads into a tube is a stress riser and makes the axle more prone to breaking.

I would never choose loose bearings for long term wheels because they need to be serviced regularly to remove contamination. Thatís not because cartridge bearings canít be contaminated but because it doesnít matter if they are contaminated. You just replace them. Contamination in a loose bearing hub could lead to damage to the cups of the hub which would kill the wheel. The same canít be said for cartridge bearing hubs.

Additionally, many of the cartridge bearings hubs can be have the freehub removed without too much difficulty. This makes spoke replacement simple.
You are much more likely to need to replace a spoke than do anything to the hub while on tour.
There's nothing inherently wrong with cartridge bearings. I primarily use cartridge bearings due to the ease of service and I strongly believe they are the only proper choice for headsets for example. However it needs to be said that typical ball bearings, while more prone to contamination (though not a big issue with modern good quality seals) and certain types of user error induced damage, are also more rugged and allow for more botch jobs on the road. A pitted race can be ground smooth, balls can be replaced easily and usually the tools required for servicing a ball bearing hub (such a shimano) are pretty basic. Now even more so than in the past since Shimano has started adding a hex locknuts on some of their hubs. On the other hand a cartridge bearing usually require some sort of pressing tool to install them. Or you can use the old bearings. But sometimes the old bearings are not available. I recently serviced my Hope RS Mono rear hub and one of the cartridge bearings had quite completely disintegrated. Luckily only minor cosmetic damage on the hub axle itself but the bearing inner race had cracked in several places and the bearing pretty much just fell out when I stripped the hub. So using that particular bearing as a substitute pressfit tool would not have been feasible. On that note, a steel cartridge bearing disintegrating inside a hub can absolutely destroy an alloy axle or hub body or both. If the bearing pieces get wedged and seize it will strip the softer alloy badly. The chances for this happening though are very small.

I honestly had no idea. The hub was working pretty normally and I serviced it because the spinning of the axle was not 100% smooth when spinning it with my fingers. Either I was very lucky or Hope Hubs are something different altogether.
The bearings at the time of service had probably around 8000 miles of touring and at least as much regular utility / exercise riding in all types of conditions on them.

So while both systems work perfectly well they do have compromises in different areas and it is then up to the end user to choose what properties are valued more over others. But a good quality rugged hub that has been serviced properly should not just fail on tour. While it is a possibility it is a slim one and probably should not factor too much into the overall decision. It is also possible that a hub flange cracks and at point the hub is toast (though it would be neat to have an alloy hub with replaceable steel flanges...). Personally I choose hubs in terms of home shop serviceability and for me cartridge bearings win. I hate fiddling with ball bearing adjustment and cartridge bearings do not have that issue. And I have the press / removal tools at home so that servicing is not an issue in that sense.

I'd prefer a hub that allowed both so the ability to either pressfit ball bearing cups into the hub or the ability to press in beefy cartridge bearings. user's choice. That way if one was really paranoid about the possibility of catastrophic bearing failure one could carry a spare system with them and replace on the road.
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