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Modern touring bikes, then and now, good or bad¿

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Modern touring bikes, then and now, good or bad¿

Old 02-21-19, 09:16 PM
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Modern touring bikes, then and now, good or bad¿

Originally Posted by djb
you know chris, Ive seen you posting in the past on the crazy guy forum and perhaps another website using diff names, but it is interesting that you do these sort of posts and internet stuff.
I guess its entertainment, and thats ok, we come on here for fun and entertainment too, but you clearly have fun with the provoking aspect of it. Hey, you havent posted a youtube link to a song for a while, they are usually good songs....
cheers
I posted 1 question on cgob about photos last year and a question about stoves 3 years ago, seldom click there, since jin jeong quit posting her universewithme journal.

provoking I am having trouble finding the Provoking part of my orignal post. I quoted Surly, the Surly that makes bicycles.

In 2009, the first offroad touring bike was the Salsa Fargo. 29 x 2.5 and drop bars. Only a hand full of people know that the Fargo was born because of a road ragging fat lady in a silver Honda. Not a trick, or a guess, historical fact, a 453 pound fat lady in a silver Honda is responsible for the creation of the off road touring bikes. It,(offraod touring,) gatherd steam.

Surly Listend to folks about the need for 3 inch tires to ride the, what is now the Baja Divide, 2.5 was just not enough. Trek´s first 29+ was made for Lance Armstrong to ride around central Baja.


¨¨Believe it or not, it wasn’t until the summer of 2012 when plus tires first debuted. Surly Bikes was the originator, launching both the Instigator with 26+ tires and the Krampus with massive 29 x 3.0″ rubber. Coincidentally, it was around that same time when bikepacking began its rise in popularity. We aren’t saying that 29+ was the impetus for bikepacking, but the two seem to be cosmically intertwined. ¨¨
29+ Bikes (The Complete List) - BIKEPACKING.com
Born out of fear of Honda driving fat ladys, off road touring gives me peace of mind. Should the old look at the new¿

Look how bicycles have changed. Less is more when it comes to cargo. More is more when it comes to tires. Do old guys have enough energy to pedal something like that? Why do people still have 4 bags and 2 racks and rim brakes.



I am a card carrying member of the~559 illuminati, the new wheel order~
and always will be. Can I try a modern bike without getting in any trouble¿


The 26 Inch Wheel Flat Earth Society
So secret they have no web address.

My motivation for posting the link to modern touring bikes was the thread where a few tried to get our man to buy an aluminum 8 speed bike to see the world on.

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Old 02-22-19, 06:13 AM
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4 bags? I need the extra room for food storage at times but I don't fill the bags up when the extra space is not needed. I like the option open to pick up a rotisserie chicken, 4 ears of corn and a bottle of wine. Maybe even throw in a quart of milk, loaf of bread, jar of peanut butter, a pound of potatoes and the day's newspaper! 3 days of Mountain House dinners and energy bars is just not my style. It's really nice to be able to throw those extras on board (only when needed) into oversize bags like you would your car trunk without improvising. I'm 70 and no longer have the flexibility to throw my leg over one of those high bikepacker butt bags behind the saddle anyway. I like the weight low and balanced left and right. No problem on the roughest of gravel jeep roads. I don't tour on single tracks.

Rim brakes? I'm certainly not going to throw away my 24 year old Bruce Gordon, hand made in California gravel grinder with clearance for 45mm tires and "upgrade" to a mass produced Chinese factory bike just to keep up with the current fashion of discs and fat tires. A solution looking for a problem, my Paul cantilevers with cross top levers work fine. 45mm tires (or less) will handle any jeep road and perform better than fatties when back on the pavement.

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Old 02-22-19, 06:45 AM
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We have been conditioned

to confuse wants and needs. There are so many great older used bikes out there, and many of them can even be retrofitted with some newer tech that does make things easier (assuming the tech on the older bike is at the point of needing to be discarded). I'm not sure why we would actually need more. That said, if someone doesn't presently have a bike, there's nothing wrong with purchasing new. My personal preference is to buy used and fix up, and that's as much a middle finger to consumer society preference as it is a bike preference.
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Old 02-22-19, 10:12 AM
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I have seen the bike of the future, with a wheel size to roll over anything, super efficient drivetrain and flatless tires.

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Old 02-22-19, 10:17 AM
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet
No one else is riding it but you.
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Old 02-22-19, 10:28 AM
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Do not Stay home until you have the perfect bike to tour on..
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Old 02-22-19, 11:02 AM
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I'm not the first to say it, but I still think it's true - the best bike is the bike you ride! Here's my best bike, an '85 Raleigh Portage, which incidentally was the first commercially-sold US bike designed around 650b wheels. Canti brakes? Check. Downtube shifters? Check. Racks and panniers? Check and check!

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Old 02-22-19, 11:11 AM
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Adventure Cycling just published their annual Touring Bike Buyer's Guide, with an interesting and informative exegesis of 2019's traditional touring bikes, gravel bikes, mountain bikes and bikepacking bikes, with an eye to the best compromise to serve all your cycling + the best specialist bike for your special brand of cycletouring passion. There was a discussion of frame geometry, tedious but necessary in a world where manufacturers offer 'helpfully' named product categories like endurance, fitness, comfort, adventure, cross country, trail, sport, recreation, performance, fat, downhill, road, hybrid, pavement and heritage. They went on to discuss modern drivetrain and braking systems, and finished with the story of a retired fella who bought his young adult dream bike, a 36 y.o. Trek 720.

Good read.

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Old 02-22-19, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs
Good read.
Got mine the other day but haven't delved into it yet. Over the years they have been getting away from simply listing what's available. Much more interesting that way. Sounds like this edition keeps that up.
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Old 02-23-19, 12:52 PM
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Modern: touring forks with 10+ mounting holes.
Modern: steel with sloped top tubes to help with frame flex on 60+ cm bikes.
Old: dt braze on mounts.

​​​​​​As for four bag touring. For me, it's all about water storage when you don't feel like putting the effort into a sexy DIY solution.
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Old 02-23-19, 05:40 PM
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It's great to see such a huge variety of bicycles and touring styles available. The problem is that it makes decisons harder to make.
But for people that are not riding their bikes right now, it gives even more opportunity to argue on the internet. What could be better?
Panniers vs bike packing bags.
26 inch vs 27.5 vs 29
Drop bars vs flats vs trekking bars vs Jones ..
Plus tires vs regular vs fat
1x vs triple vs IGH
Steel frames vs aluminum vs carbon vs bamboo

Just be sure you make the right choice or you will never live it down!
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Old 02-23-19, 08:23 PM
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If you are riding on hard surface roads, 4 bags is far preferable to bikepacking bags. The load carries far better. Bikepacking bags are great for situations where you actually need them like on trails or Jeep roads but they do have a issues. The load is carried significantly higher and, in most cases, significantly forward. I find bikepacking bags to make the bike rather front heavy and the bike less stable.

Lowriders, as part of a 2 or 4 bag system, have the opposite effect. They just don’t have the clearance needed for bikepacking.
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Old 02-23-19, 09:36 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
If you are riding on hard surface roads, 4 bags is far preferable to bikepacking bags.
I largely agree, but there is a significant aero advantage to bikepacking bags if you want to hammer out km on the road at speed.
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Old 02-24-19, 09:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Soody
I largely agree, but there is a significant aero advantage to bikepacking bags if you want to hammer out km on the road at speed.
There may be an aerodynamic advantage but I doubt that it is “significant”.
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Old 02-24-19, 11:46 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute


There may be an aerodynamic advantage but I doubt that it is “significant”.
It will be interesting to see actual results of aerodynamics between a bikepacking setup vrs a traditional 4 bag loaded touring bicycle.
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Old 02-24-19, 11:50 AM
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If we think of TdF type races as indicators of what gear is fastest we could consider what all competitive cross country bikepacking cyclists are using. Very few (none) 2 or 4 pannier set ups.
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Old 02-24-19, 08:28 PM
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What's the Speed Difference Between Front/Rear Panniers and BikePacking Bags? Results - CyclingAbout.com

According to this, it's ~8%
I guess whether or not that's significant depends on if you're more the type to cut your toothbrush handle off, or the type who likes to ride with a paper maché Jim the Eagle from Badjelly the Witch

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Old 02-25-19, 09:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Soody
What's the Speed Difference Between Front/Rear Panniers and BikePacking Bags? Results - CyclingAbout.com

According to this, it's ~8%
I guess whether or not that's significant depends on if you're more the type to cut your toothbrush handle off, or the type who likes to ride with a paper maché Jim the Eagle from Badjelly the Witch
I would question whether the results are significant at all. I can see a number of problems with the "experiment". *It's on a flat track. *The triangle bag is rather small compared to what many people carry. *The measurement may not be randomized. *Did he do the bikepacking bags first and the 4 panniers last? *Did he do the measurements over multiple days? *Is 17 minutes over 60 miles that significant? What is the variance on the lap times? *There are a number of questions.

To his credit, he does state that the "normal" configuration has advantages over the aerodynamics.
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Old 02-25-19, 09:58 AM
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Originally Posted by Soody
I largely agree, but there is a significant aero advantage to bikepacking bags if you want to hammer out km on the road at speed.
Anyone else remember Specialized's Tailwind f&r panniers, shaped like airfoils? They had a plastic liner to make them hold that shape even if they weren't stuffed full.
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Old 02-25-19, 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tcs
Anyone else remember Specialized's Tailwind f&r panniers, shaped like airfoils? They had a plastic liner to make them hold that shape even if they weren't stuffed full.
Yup. Couldn't afford them. The original ones were ZZipper Tailwind panniers in conjunction with Specialized. Here's an account of someone who made them.

Apparently you can buy a more modern version that are still very pricey.
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Old 02-25-19, 04:59 PM
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At speeds under 15 mph aerodynamics have little effect. Most touring takes place at those speeds.

Going downhill, I don't care about maximum speed. I would rather save the brakes.

At speeds over 25 mph aerodynamics become very significant, but I don't need or even want those speeds.

Headwinds are a spoiler, but I prefer to avoid them anyway.
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Old 02-25-19, 07:20 PM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
I would question whether the results are significant at all. I can see a number of problems with the "experiment". *It's on a flat track. *The triangle bag is rather small compared to what many people carry. *The measurement may not be randomized. *Did he do the bikepacking bags first and the 4 panniers last? *Did he do the measurements over multiple days? *Is 17 minutes over 60 miles that significant? What is the variance on the lap times? *There are a number of questions.

To his credit, he does state that the "normal" configuration has advantages over the aerodynamics.
It is a start but I agree we need better data.
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Old 02-25-19, 07:27 PM
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Originally Posted by Bikesplendor
At speeds under 15 mph aerodynamics have little effect. Most touring takes place at those speeds.

Going downhill, I don't care about maximum speed. I would rather save the brakes.

At speeds over 25 mph aerodynamics become very significant, but I don't need or even want those speeds.

Headwinds are a spoiler, but I prefer to avoid them anyway.
If I remember correctly, air resistance is proportional to the square of the velocity. 15 mph is about 24 km/h, I never go that fast when I am touring unless I am going downhill.
I am wondering about crosswinds, is the effect worse with panniers than bike packing bags?
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Old 02-25-19, 07:34 PM
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you know chris, Ive seen you posting in the past on the crazy guy forum and perhaps another website using diff names, but it is interesting that you do these sort of posts and internet stuff.
I guess its entertainment, and thats ok, we come on here for fun and entertainment too, but you clearly have fun with the provoking aspect of it. Hey, you havent posted a youtube link to a song for a while, they are usually good songs....
cheers
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Old 02-25-19, 08:01 PM
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Originally Posted by skookum
If I remember correctly, air resistance is proportional to the square of the velocity. 15 mph is about 24 km/h, I never go that fast when I am touring unless I am going downhill.
I am wondering about crosswinds, is the effect worse with panniers than bike packing bags?
The higher the bags, the worse for crosswinds, or so it would seem. Size would matter too.

Low panniers always seemed like a good idea to me. Just high enough to clear the ground while turning.

The vast majority of unpaved roads and trails I've been on are rideable with panniers. The few sections that aren't, can be gotten through one way or another. Some singletrack is worse, but I don't encounter it often at all. If I were touring on long, pannier unfriendly singletrack, then I would do something different; but I have no plans to do that, and lowish panniers and loads work better for me. I really like having the solid platform, especially in the back.

Last edited by Bikesplendor; 02-25-19 at 08:41 PM.
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