Miele Man

When I am touring or even camping there are two things I want to keep completely dry. One is my sleeping bag and the other is me tent. I have a large lightweight tarp I put over my tent and fly if it looks like it's going to rain. That way when I break camp and it's raining my tent stays dry as i fold and roll it up and pack it. In all my years of camping and bicycle touring I've never had anything that was inside two heavy-duty green garbage bags get wet.

Cheers

tspoon

I had some waterproof ones I ended up selling but not for any particular reason, just didn't need them anymore. Later I got some cordura type, not particularly even water resistant. I just ended up using thick plastic bags, which were also handy for separating things out and sort of organising them. The setup worked fairly well, was lightish, and you could separate damp stuff from dry stuff too, like not-washed-yet clothes, or the camping gear that never dried before you packed up. As others have said, regardless of what bag you have, they don't dry inside it, you take them out to do that.

Lately I just put everything I'll only need at night in a dry bag and strap that to the front carrier. Again, damp stuff gets a plastic bag around it. For stuff I need during the day I have a trunk/rack-top style bag on another carrier behind. That one is a cheap model from Aliexpress. When it rains I use a $0.50 small pack rain cover with elastic over it. Usually after a few days use the cover needs repair, which is done with duct tape, and then it's okay until the end of the trip (most of my trips are <20 days).

I cycle in rain alot, my hometown gets over 2000mm annually. Recently I used my setup during an 8 hour period without any break in precipitation. For long parts of that 8 hours the rain was hammering, and the winds were also high. Nothing got wet.

So, there's multiple ways to keep stuff dry, all of them are easy, so when looking for gear, you can concentrate on whatever over features you find important too.

staehpj1 

Interesting approach. My experiences and approach are a little different...
I haven't carried a tent on my recent trips (I have been using a tarp and hoopless bivy or bug bivy depending on the trip lately), but have never been on a trip where the tent was truly dry. I also have never been on a trip where the wetness was a real problem. I always had some wetness in or on the tent either from condensation or from precipitation. I often used single wall tents that required a little wiping down inside in the morning to mop up a bit of condensation. It was never a big deal. I just figure tents are typically never really dry at least not reliably so in all weather. I often have used single wall tents and they are never completely dry at all. They always required managing a little condensation.

I always carried my tent outside the panniers (on top of the rear rack) rain or shine. I roll the tent with the top parts inside and the bottom outside protecting it and the fly (if the tent has one) either protected with the top or packed separately depending on whether it was wet or not. Regardless of whether it was sunny or torrential rain the tent never seemed to get one bit wetter or drier during the day unless I laid it out in the sun to dry during breaks. A dry tent was still dry when rolled out at the end of a rainy day and a wet tent was still just as wet when rolled out at the end of a sunny day. I seldom have ever needed to lay out the whole tent mid day but have done it with the fly now and then.

BTW, I love the DWR treated shell on my down bag. What little condensation I get in my bivy tends to collect either under the sleeping pad near my feet (a few drops easily mopped up in the morning) or on top of the bag over my thighs (another few drops easily brushed or shaken off in the morning). I have used that bag extensively in all kinds of conditions and it has never gotten wet or even damp enough to be cold or otherwise uncomfortable.

These days I generally try to plan my tours in less rainy locales and/or seasons where possible, but I do still wind up seeing wet weather (hard to avoid on long tours) and I have done plenty of camping in wet seasons and climates in the past. I can recall plenty of spring canoe trips where it rained every day all week and we did fine dealing with our tents despite the fact that they were never really dry.

BTW, for me the use of the big tarp over the tent would make the tent redundant and I'd just skip it altogether. That is sort of what I actually do by either cowboy camping or using a hoop-less bug bivy under a tarp. Just a different approach. I tend to try to go with as little gear as I can and still camp and cook in comfort.

Tourist in MSN

Totally agree on sleeping bag. Even inside a water proof pannier, I also use a waterproof but breathable compression sack for sleeping bag.

We disagree on importance of a dry tent, but I won't argue as we each have different opinions.

indyfabz

Same here. Bag is compressed and goes in a pannier.

And rain is not the only thing that can cause a went tent. Last Friday I finished an up and back on the GAP. Tuesday the Wednesday were hot (89 degrees) and extremely humid. The temperature dipped at night causing dense fog. Fly got wet, along with everything else, including the bike. Set out the tent at the end up the day and it dried in no time flat.

ortliebsforever

After reading all responses to this question so far there's not much to add. I do have to say, though, that the kind of bag you use may be determined by how great a risk you're taking when bikepacking in extremely remote areas such as Yukon, NWT, or Alaska. I always ride alone. There is no backup for me. So gear is life-support. Waterproof Ortliebs have kept me alive.

But organization is of great importance. Instead of risky plastic bags to keep dry stuff dry inside a non-breathable Ortleib bag I reccomend the lightweight Outdoor Research waterproof rolltops for either wet stuff that you don't want to make the inside of your Ortleibs wet, or for dry stuff that you can't risk getting damp from the inevitable moisture that can collect in the Ortleibs. My tent and rainfly always go into seperate lightweight rolltop dry bags that go inside the Ortleibs. Organization is also very important when it comes to rain or wet snow riding that puts you at risk of hypothermia, even in summer.

Borderline hypothermia is pretty much taken for granted when you're doing hard-core bikepacking. When you stop riding and you're soaked and tired from a rough day you have to be able to unpack quickly and know that you have perfectly dry clothes and a dry sleeping bag. You really need to train under these conditions. Inside the Ortleibs there will be wet stuff and dry stuff mixed. On a long rain ride in the backcountry you can't avoid this. For those times that you're truly borderline hypothermic you have just a few minutes to get dry and warm. The better you organize and train, the better chance you have to avoid going over the edge into full hypothermia. On that borderline edge you will be uncoordinated and mentally goofy. Good organization that doesn't change from day to day comes in handy when your brain begins to shut down. Packing and unpacking becomes a meditation that you do exactly the same every day for safety's sake.

Also you have to consider food odor. I started using the US Navy approved double-zip food bags to isolate food odor. One Ortleib bag gets food in grizzly or polar bear country. The other three NEVER see food or utensils. In the far north you're at risk for even sleeping in the same clothes you eat in. The Ortleib rear-rollers help to seal odor to some degree, and do so far better than a cordura bag. In the far north there are no trees for hanging food - none that are tall enough, anyway. The double-ziplock food bags are rated for something like 100' depth or something like that. If you're near a creek or lake you can sink your food with rocks on top of the zip bags to keep them from floating away. Never had a bear or any other creature go for food sunk in water, especially running water. I also use these bags for Pacific Crest Trail and other backpacking ventures, and always just sink the food bags instead of hanging or carrying so-called bear proof containers. Those containers just attract bears.

The National Park Service demands that you use those containers and I think that's dumb. Had a ranger baffled once when she asked to see my bear proof container in the North Cascades backcountry. I walked her over to the creek nearby and three feet underwater was a week supply of food. So what I'm saying is that the Ortleib rollers are quite useful not only for waterproofing. They can be easily washed inside and out to manage food odor and will dry much faster than if you wash your cordura bags. Cordura absorbs odors. And they are tough to deodorize.

Follow the Salmon River upstream in Idaho over the pass down into Missoula. At or near the top of the pass is a huge tourist parking lot and lookout. On the opposite side of the highway is an enormous praire dog megalopolis. Walk your bike out into the middle of praire dog town and prop it up with a stick or rock and go sit out on the side of the highway and watch what happens. The little buggers are curious as all get out and they'll crawl all over the bike. If you have no food odor exiting the dedicated Ortleib bag containing food, then the praire dogs just walk away, bored with the no longer curious thing that sits in the middle of their town. That's my kind of test for entering the backcountry alone with sometimes two weeks worth of food. First grizzly I ever encountered on a bike tour was within the city limits of Prince Rupert, Canada. Once I camped along side the road at a pull-out that had an outhouse on the (then) unpaved Stewart-Cassiar highway. Threw my dedicated food Ortleib on top of the outhouse thinking that the bears wouldn't be able to smell the difference between the terrible smell of the old outhouse and any food odor.

My down bag, down parka, and thermarest go into an Outdoor Research rolltop waterproof bag that straps to the top of my rear rack for bikepacking or for very long self-supported tours with little civilization. The trick is to use your stove in the vestibule of your tent to warm up for the morning and get as much moisture out of the down before packing it up for the day in that drybag. This doesn't take but a few minutes and it works. Also, what really works well is to string up a large sil-tarp when rain riding BEFORE pulling out a tent that's still a bit damp. Well, this works if you have trees to string the sil-tarp onto. I've carried poles for the sil-tarp when necessary so it's up high enough to stand under while setting up the tent and unpacking in rain or wet snow. An 8'x12' sil-tarp weighs practically nothing.

The key is to figure out a system that works well so that moisture and food odor are both isolated. Then you use that system religiously. Learn it so that you can pack and unpack with your eyes closed and one arm tied behind your back. At that point you can be quite safe and comfy in the backcountry. But you do require a heat source and a good lightweight stove is necessary.

For civilized rides where laundromats are available then I don't see a problem either way, waterproof or not.

Not to belabor the point, but I like to ride fast on dirt and gravel in the outback. My panniers must be solidly attached to very strong racks or the load shifts with high speed manuevering. I've always liked the Ortleib rollers for their fairly stiff backing plate plus the fact that the fabric is so tough that the bags can be packed very tightly to keep the load from shifting even a tiny bit.

I guess I'm just an Ortleib kind of guy. I've lost count of how many pairs I've owned over the past decades. They don't wear out, but start to look sort of ragged after awhile. So I get new ones. I like pretty. A clean, well maintained bike and gear in the remote backcountry is a kind of psychological thing when you find yourself pushed beyond your limits. Maybe if you ride with a partner that's not so important.

Sorry for the rant. But you can't blame a guy who uses the moniker 'ortleibsforever.'

djb

not a rant, just a convinced endorsement, and thats ok.

now the submerged food Ortlieb, now that is unique! Kinda goofy, but hey, I guess it works.

I've used them since about 93 or 94, and recently do that "bulk up the rack rails" trick , and dont use the inserts, I find it makes for a "no rattle" , very solid setup, which is great over rough surfaces.

geoffs

I/We have had a few sets of non waterproof bags before we upgraded to Ortlieb waterproof bags. We've ridden many times in torrential rain while touring and not once have they ever let us down. It's such a relief to get to the end of a long wet day and just know that all your things are nice and dry and you haven't made the discovery that the bag you are using as a liner has a tear and your clothes are all wet. We were riding along the Danube many years ago in the rain and spotted a sign with an exclamation mark on it and something in German underneath. While we were wondering what it was a warning for, all of a sudden the path dropped away and we were riding in a culvert. No problem we thought just a bit of a dip but we were fine. That wasn't what the warning was for. The warning was for the deep section that we hit at 20kms/hr that had water about 18" deep in it. That did give us a fright. When we reached the town we were planning on staying in we decided it was to wet to camp and checked into a little hotel. When we unpacked our bags, even though they had been covered in water, not a drop was inside. I wouldn't even let the thought of using non waterproof bags speculate about crossing my mind.

ortliebsforever

Please notice that I have not been submerging the Ortleibs, but have used the heavy duty submergable dual-lock zip locks developed for the Navy that are found in backpacking stores, even REI. I double the zip locks when I'm in the backcountry and know that I'll be submerging them.


I've experimented over the years with replacing flexible plastic backing plates in panniers using aluminum. Always was a fanatic about precision handling at high speed on dirt. The problem with using a less flexible material for the backing plate to keep the bags from shifting on the racks is that the edges eventually cut through the fabric of the bag. The Ortleib rear-rollers have proven to be stout enough under all conditions just as they come from the factory. It's the mounting that's critical.


I use the Ortleib top hooks that snap onto the rack, then use two of the Ortleib bottom hooks (on each bag) wherever they can be placed to securely engage with the rack, and then at the very bottom I attach a 1.5" wide velcro strap that goes around the rack bottom tube and pulls the bag firmly down onto the top hooks. I also use two .75" wide velcro straps next to each top hook. I can lift the bike by grabbing the carrying strap on the Ortleib and the bag does not shift. The velcro attaches to the bags by going under the plastic stiffners on the outside of the bag wherever there's a screw that can penetrate and clamp down directly on the velcro strap.


Velcro has never failed. Get creative with it and those bags will never shift on the racks. Removing the bag really is simple. If you stitch soemthing to the edge of the velcro to be used as a pull-tab to disengage the velcro the removal of the bag from the rack is easy.

djb

That velcro modification certainly sounds like a simple system that works very well.
Good idea.

Tourist in MSN

My backrollers have always stayed where I put them with the Ortlieb hooks, I never found a need to add more velcro or anything else. I did put some plastic tubing on my racks to prevent chaffing. Photo shows the plastic tubing held on with electrical tape. But it is an older photo, this past summer for my tour I reduced the amount of electrical tape and used some zip ties to supplement the tape. The plastic tubing and a few layers of electrical tape over the Tubus Logo rack tubing is just right diameter to use the Ortlieb upper hooks without the inserts.

indyfabz

Same with my Ortlieb Packers. I did managed to lose one of the bottom hooks from one of the front ones. Bungeed the bottom around the rack just for peace of mine and to keep the thing from banging against the rack when I hit bumps.

ortliebsforever

Thanks for posting that photo. I still don't have enough posts to be able to attach a pic.

The velcro straps I use on the top, next to the hooks, slip underneath the plastic rail that the hooks are fastened to. The screws that hold those rails onto the bag at the end of the rail penetrate the velcro. The reason for adding the velcro is not to keep the bags from moving back and forth but to securely fasten the backing of the pannier flat and tight against the rack. That's my strategy - to fasten that entire backing plate as flat and tight as possible to the rack. Unfortunately some racks aren't designed in such a way to provide much support for the backing plate of the bag.

I tend to use the Ortleibs as you would use a stuff bag. Everything in it's place inside the bag, and stuffed tight. Stuffing the Ortleib tight like that tends to put a pretty good curve in the backing plate if that plate isn't tied tight and flat against the rack.

In your pic I would have a second bottom hook that engages the other tube of the rear rack as it passes behind the plastic oval that you mount the hook on. The bottom screw in that plastic oval is usually the screw that I use to penetrate the wide velcro strap that pulls the bag downwards and tight to the rack frame, using the bottom tube of the rack.

Yes, I know that I'm committing overkill.

But the idea is to have the entire load I'm carrying move with the bike under all circumstances and not have the load sort of shimmy or wiggle around at speed on rough surfaces.

I've always loved the design of the Tubus racks. They are a minimalist's dream. When the Old Man Mountain racks hit the market I started getting ideas. Rack designs that fully support the bag's backing plate became my mantra.

But then I've always used extraordinarily stiff aluminum frames for touring that many riders would sneer at as being way to uncomfortable. For me, comfort is a relative thing. Handling at speed with a full load when I'm far away from civilization was my obsession.

Reliability, handling, then comfort.

Probably my obsession was with the generation of endorphins more than anything else. There's not one tour where I failed to arrive home with any money remaining in my pocket. Thankfully there were headhunters (contract agencies) that would put me to work with one phone call. It was a good life - work a year, ride a year; work two years, ride two years. The work was always engaging and challenging. I also taught at the undergrad level.

I could never commute on a bike in the city while working. At least not without keeping my eyes down, away from the horizon. I used the Burke-Gilman trail in Seattle (I lived in a house directly on the trail). If I looked up at the horizon, or looked out over the water towards the Olympics while riding to work on the trail, it was quite possible that I wouldn't make it to work at all. I never was happy on a bike unless there were hundreds of miles in front of me. If there ever was a 'crazy guy on a bike' it was me. I just didn't advertise it.

Overkill should be my middle name.

Tourist in MSN

To me a curve or a few bulges sticking out of the panniers is no big deal. As long as nothing rattles I am pretty content.

fvernon

I use waterproof panniers for most big trips (Ortlieb Bike-Packer Plus) and love 'em, but I live in the southwestern united states and really like the simplicity of breathable front rack panniers for fair-weather trips & CC Touring. I have a pair of vintage Overland Equipment front panniers that are perfect for that.

Has anyone tried treating breathable panniers with something like NeverWet?

ortliebsforever

Wow. That is one fine photo. It makes my ruined heart sing.

I will say that I've never packed that much gear, even on very long into-the-arctic rides. Four large rear rollers is what I use, and one lighter-weight Outdoor Research waterproof rolltop stuff sack strapped longitudinally on the rear rack, if necessary, with nothing but lightweight down in it to keep center of gravity low.

I also have to admit to spending more than average on the lightest and most durable gear. If the tents had to be four-season I tried to keep them as light as possible. Also I was an early adopter of sil-tarps back when they were so cost-prohibitive that you'd only see them in the backcountry once in a while (Pacific Crest Trail through-hikers).

So I carried all the necessary stuff, but it packed down further than heavier gear. Clothes were much the same. I used Patagonia silk-weight a lot. It packed down to nothing and dried almost instantly when washed. Along with an 800-fill down bag and down parka there was always warmth available whenever needed, but would pack into very small space.

I used to get lots of flack from fellow riders for using that same 'B52 bomber' bottle cage and carrying huge, oversized bottles. Everyone would ask me why I'd want to carry so much water. I'd just chuckle and go on my way.

Your pic, though, makes me want to jump on and ride. The scenery reminds me of where I really want to be - far away from every human and every human-made thing that I didn't carry with me for purposes of travel and survival.

djb

I assume you are American, but Canadians of my age grew up reading books by an author by the name of Farley Mowat, of being out in the wilderness and about animals etc. I always enjoyed his books and they surely helped foster a love of being outdoors, along with of course our family outdoor activities.
It was interesting as a young adult to read a book he wrote later titled, "And no birds sang", about his experience as a young soldier in ww2 and his participation in the Italian campaign-and very specifically to then understand his post war desire to be out in the wilderness, after witnessing all the ugliness of war and human nature....

Your comment made me think of him, and reading that book and understanding so much more the reasons he had the experiences he did in the Canadian wilderness after the war.

And yes, I sometimes use a rack pack, but learned early in to put lighter stuff in it, so while it might look bulky, it's not necessarily heavy, to keep weight lower.

PedalingWalrus

Not to hijack a thread but it is interesting to see the reporting on inspirational outdoor writers in various countries. In Russia it was probably Vitalii Bianki (sic), Czechoslovakia probably Jaroslav Foglar, Canada (per your post) Farley Mowat, USA was it Zane Grey or E.T.Seton or is that too dated?

Tourist in MSN

Thank you. I built up that bike to be the bike that I could take anywhere with the confidence that it would take me back out when I wanted it too. The frame is rated for 60 kg of weight excluding the weight of the rider, which is something like 130 pounds, not counting the weight of the unladen bike. I am quite sure I was not even close to the rated capacity, which is why that bike handled great without any wet noodle feel to it.

Thought you might like this photo too.

ortliebsforever

I love that scene - endless open road in a place I'd want to be.

A good part of my life has been spent working in the woods in the Pacific Northwest plus specializing in maintenance of snow grooming equipment (sno-cats) and heavy equipment for Cascade ski resorts. Did a lot of long distance backcountry travel in winter. Living for years literally on the Pacific Crest Trail (Stevens Pass) gave me natural easy access to all of the surrounding wilderness areas.

Ya don't have to be Canadian to know Farley Mowat. Besides, when I decided to go back to university at 35y/o my degrees were all in psychology. I pursued Deep Ecology at an acedemic level. Leaving the only real home I ever had to go back to school and then eventually working in cities doing engineering and research had to have a safety valve. Serious bikepacking just came naturally.

I've lived within just a few short miles of the border with B.C. I used to spend so much time touring Canada that I learned to make a little switch in my head that could turn me into a Canook whenever I crossed the border. Nobody ever thought I was an American. In my current location I can walk down my street two blocks and look out over the water at Vancouver Island. What a wonderland of wilderness that island used to be. But a lot of roads have been built, and paved, even in places that you'd never expect. Still, the Island is a great destination for the bike tourist and even the bikepacker.

Beware the blackflies though. Vancouver Island has worse bug infestations in the backcountry than anywhere in the far north. The blackflies eat you alive. The ferry to Prince Rupert leaving the northern tip of the island is the fastest way to get to the far north.

The Stewart-Cassiar Hwy. was once unpaved and hardly traveled. Once you're at the Alaska Hwy. junction you've got many choices of direction you can take. You don't need an off-road bike to do this trip. A bike tourist could go West on the Alaska Hwy. to Tok junction, then south, eventually down through the Matanuska Valley and into Anchorage to fly home. From the Yukon/Alaska border on the Alaska hwy. to Anchorage is about 900 miles, but don't quote me. My memory is not that good. In the past it's taken nine days to ride that section.

The Stewart-Cassiar junction to the Alaska Hwy from the Yellowhead Hwy (5) east of Rupert is about 400 miles or so. If a rider begins on the Olympic Peninsula and uses the ferries, the entire loop is a great summer's ride. The best part is the cinnamon buns in Yukon. Everyone has their own recipes there. You can gain weight easily by stopping at every coffee shop or restaurant along the way for cinnamon buns and coffee. Very nice midnight sun so you don't have to sleep.

djb

funny, but I always kind of figured that only Canadians read or knew Farley Mowat books, dont know why I thought that, but did.
The "Never Cry Wolf" movie was very well done, having read the book as a kid. Boy, that movie must be pretty old now, 80s maybe? I will ask senor google.....

yup, 1983
probably read the book in the 70s, I see it was published in 63.


anyway, there is a wonderful peacefullness and calmness from being out in the middle of nowhere isnt there...

ortliebsforever

There is "a wonderful peacefullness and calmness" from living and working full-time out in the middle of nowhere. I paid the price for leaving that life to engage with the outside world.

Did six years at university living in various apartments, duplexes, etc. with nothing but touring gear. Slept on the floor on my thermarest. Also tended to wear spandex full-time (still do). I used to plan to attend certain academic conferences during winter - the kind in Southern California. That was a great excuse to fly the bike south to attend the conference and ride for a week or so before heading home. I did much the same after I began working and teaching. But at that point I was able to quit jobs and ride for extended periods. Work a year, ride a year.

Also did not own motor vehicles for over twenty years. It wasn't until I hit 60y/o that I began accumulating the usual stuff.

But to get the thread back on track, much of the peace that comes from extremely challenging wilderness travel - especially solo - is dependent upon the gear you take with you and how well you know how to use it.

When Ortlieb bags first came on the scene for me, I never gave them up. I did tend to use black or the dark blue. No loud screaming colors for me. The yellow pair I have now are the first bright color I've owned.

I found that it paid to have a bike and gear that appeared professional and well maintained. Especially in the 80's while riding through places that never saw bicycle tourists I stood out like a sore thumb. That meant attracting the attention of local law enforcment. Also, appearances make a huge difference when interacting with the general public.

In both the U.S. and Canada there are certain communities that don't take to strangers all that well. I speak of native reservations and religious communities. Being out there solo on a bike actually helped gain me some social inroads into these communities, but still, appearances matter. And I learned not to try to go into stores or markets on the wrong day of the week in small Mormon towns. The native peoples in Canada were much more difficult to manage than in the U.S. I did my best not to look like a bum and to learn how to show due respect. Several times I would go into stores and stand in line at the cash register just to be ignored until I left the store (Montpelier, Idaho and Dease Lake in B.C. come to mind, but that was a long time ago).

I always tried my best to ride from home to wherever I wished to travel to, then ride back home. That meant lots of rural backroads and lots of small towns of all kinds, all far away from the usual bike routes.

In my mind, anyway, Ortileb rollers not only worked in my favor as waterproof and durable bags, but also as being non-descript in appearance such that the entire bike appeared under-stated and less than pretentious, without lots of pockets and fancy design doo-dads. There are circumstances wherein you simply do not want to flaunt the appearance of wealth any more than necessary.

Carbonfiberboy 

Waterproof. Plus we put everything made of cloth in a waterproof compression sack, so several extra-small compression sacks and one medium which holds tent and sleeping bag on the rack top. That's for 2 people. For one person, a small sack should work for both. The tent goes in a plastic bag in the compression sack to keep the sleeping bag dry. Volume is the same problem as weight, since volume breeds weight. The several sacks is how we stay organized. Plus non fabric items are sorted into a series of ziplock bags of various sizes. We put a few extra ziplocks of various sizes in the bottom of a pannier. Thus everything we take out of a pannier in a rain storm stays dry. The idea of a waterproof pannier is that the stuff inside should stay dry.

dualresponse

Thanks all for your replies. I went with drumroll..... The orts... A local bike shop lets you borrow theirs for a trial, so I ordered through them. They work great. Right now, I've got a little tooo much capacity, but in the future I might get some smaller front bags. Sorry if these pics upload too big. It reflects the overambitious nature of the current bags!