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Question about Surly Troll dropouts

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Question about Surly Troll dropouts

Old 10-04-19, 11:11 PM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by alan s
Surly says the largest rear rotor is 160 on the older version of the dropouts. Not sure whether that changed. The disc brake mounting point is adjustable fore and aft to match the axle position.
Oops, I forgot that it's only the front that is 180mm on the newer troll frames.
And thanks for the confirmation of the fore aft adjustment.
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Old 10-05-19, 12:51 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by rmball28
If you do not move the axle all the way to the front it is easy to pull the wheel out of alignment. In order to move the wheel up you have to buy a special disc brake adapter from surly,
I found it impossible to move the axle all the way to the front unless the number of chain links are just right. I did have to by a special disc brake adapter (not from Surly) to mount my Shimano Hydraulic disc brakes. It was somewhat frustrating to find this out, but once mounted I love my hydraulic brakes. I guess I'm not exactly sure what you are referencing here. The mounting thingy to the frame?
Originally Posted by djb
the monkey nuts I have on my troll are these ones
https://surlybikes.com/parts/monkey_nuts

the ones that are locked in place with a small allen key tightened bolt.
It must be because of the rohlof requirements that the dropouts are the design and shape and length they are, but that has always been the whole thing with the troll.

I just put the wheel as far as it can go, and its done.
.
I found the monkey nuts that came with the troll somewhat useless. If I take out one too many links there isn't enough room for the monkey nuts.....if I have one more the Rohloff hub starts to fall out the back.
Thanks to Alan , I've now realized the Tugnut is the answer to my problem.....which is.... over time, the hub starts to move forward.

I love the Troll but it is my first bike I had to build myself. It was certainly a learning experience but the goal was to have a bike that I could ride without much maintenance ....since I hate maintenance. It is worth the initial trouble.
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Old 10-05-19, 07:31 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by boomhauer
I found it impossible to move the axle all the way to the front unless the number of chain links are just right. I did have to by a special disc brake adapter (not from Surly) to mount my Shimano Hydraulic disc brakes. It was somewhat frustrating to find this out, but once mounted I love my hydraulic brakes. I guess I'm not exactly sure what you are referencing here. The mounting thingy to the frame?

I found the monkey nuts that came with the troll somewhat useless. If I take out one too many links there isn't enough room for the monkey nuts.....if I have one more the Rohloff hub starts to fall out the back.
Thanks to Alan , I've now realized the Tugnut is the answer to my problem.....which is.... over time, the hub starts to move forward.

I love the Troll but it is my first bike I had to build myself. It was certainly a learning experience but the goal was to have a bike that I could ride without much maintenance ....since I hate maintenance. It is worth the initial trouble.
The Tuggnut works well without the Monkey Nuts. The Monkey Nuts may actually make it more difficult to get the chain off if the wheel canít go forward enough. In addition to initial chain tension, as the chain wears, you can make small adjustments to keep correct tension with the Tuggnut.
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Old 10-05-19, 08:07 AM
  #29  
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here is my recap of all this for txthroop

the whole troll dropout design was made with the kinda neat possibilities of running a rear derailleur, IGH stuff and easily attaching a bob trailer or whatever.
When I first heard about this bike, and had been always dreaming of doing some latin american trips, it seemed like a great choice. The idea of a Rohlof had kicked around in my head, but in the end, I decided that the extra money for one, a good $1500 cad., was money I would put towards airfare and other stuff for my trips, and anyway, I've used derailleurs happily and at least know how to deal with them and keep them in good working condition, so I just went with what I know and that has been extremely reliable for decades of regular biking.

re this whole monkey nuts /tugnuts thing, my bike came with the allen key type monkey nuts, which position the wheel 15mm or whatever further backwards on the frame , but I'll be honest, I dont know or dont recall the reasoning. My wifes troll that doesnt have them works perfectly fine even after I changed the shifters, so setting up the trigger shifters was as easy as on any bike, so there you go.

Like I mentioned, I remove Troll rear wheels very very infrequently, so infrequently that I forget how its a bit futzy, but really it just means having to hold the chain more with your fingers to get the chain off or on the cassette.
I changed tires on my wifes bike once, and no flats since; and on my bike I changed tires a few times trying out diff tire options at first after getting it, but after putting on the Supremes, Ive only had one flat in three years or whatever it is now----I could see however that if you were riding in an area where you get many flats a day from thorns or something, it would be slightly annoying, a bit more than a more easily removed wheel , but then you'd be pissed off anyway getting multiple flats so to me its not a real diff

but again, a frame like the Bridge Club was brought in my Surly simply to address that not lots of people buy Trolls, partly cuz they are "old fashioned" 26 inchers, and partly because bikepacking is waaaaaaaay more popular than fully loaded touring, so it made sense to make a frame that frankly hardly anyone is going to actually put a Rohlof on or pull a Bob trailer, so come out with a cheaper frame with regular dropouts, and all this makes a good, more sellable option to a Troll or an Ogre.

The Bridge Club is similar to the troll in that it can take fairly wide tires in 700, 27.5 or 26 wheels:

"Clearance for 700 x 47mm tires (with or without fenders), 27.5 x 2.8” tires (27.5 x 2.6” with fenders), and 26 x 3” tires (26 x 2.8” with fenders)"

re frames--the Troll and Ogre still have that toptube to seattube angled reinforcing tube (that bit under the front of the seat) that to this non engineer eye, probably makes the frame a bit stiffer and maybe better for fully loaded trips, but who knows--and I'm sure its the combination of regular dropouts and lack of this extra tubing gives it the lower price--plus they want to grab some more of the "bikepacking pie" and "27.5" sales wise.

there are lots of bikes out there that can take wide tires now, but I still like that these bikes are versatile and perform well.
I guess I'm used to the horizontal dropouts, but they certainly dont impede the use of the bike, and I still love that I could totally change my troll from dropbars and slicks to some interesting bars like Jones or one of the other more offroad/rough road suitable bars, take off my fenders and slap on some 2.5 or nearly 3 inch tires, some changes to gear carrying, and I could go off on totally diff trips with the same bike and it would work great.....

one thing though--holy crap up here in Canada these bikes have gotten expensive over the years. A stock Troll is now $2500, add in taxes and thats $2875

a bit over the top I find.
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Old 10-06-19, 07:59 AM
  #30  
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Thanks for all the feedback and especially djb for the thorough recap! You guys have been hugely helpful in making me feel confident about going with a Troll. I expect to stick with 26" wheels and a derailleur on the bike which means I can leave the axles bottomed out in the horizontal dropout. It seems like this position has been trouble free for most people. If I get a wild hair and change up the back end, some Tugnutts should provide the needed stability for a wheel positioned anywhere else in the slots. And brake position can be adjusted easily using the similar horizontal slots provided.

I've continued to come back to the issue of wheel size during this process. The Troll, Ogre, ECR etc seem to vary mostly according to the wheel sizes they are built for. Although, I'm sure I could eventually get used to any size wheel, my current daily driver is a LHT with 26" wheels and that size just feels right - or more accurately, the larger wheel sizes just feel big. This new bike will be a commuter for me, occasionally carrying up to 45 lbs. or so. It will tow a trailer when I have more weight or bulkier items. I may eventually put a mid-drive ebike motor on it. I like the idea of having strong 36h wheels for all these things. Other wheels might be just fine, but I'm confident in the 26ers on the Troll will be up to anything I'm going to ask of them - and I'm not worried about being "old fashioned" Also, 98% of my riding is on paved roads or smooth gravel trails - I don't have a strong need for larger wheels that rough trails call for. But! If my riding changes in the future, it seems like a Troll could take a larger wheel - at least a 27.5 - without any trouble.

The price of a Troll is not insignificant and for what I'm doing the Bridge Club is probably a better value. However, I am very happy with the stock set up on a Troll whereas I would want to change at least tires and handle bars on a BC, so that would increase the base price some. Also, my LBS has a new Troll that's been sitting around for a couple years and they'll give me a discount on it. All things considered, I'll end up paying about $250 more for this Troll than for a BC. Also, for whatever reason, I feel drawn to the Troll more than the BC and I've learned over the years that I need to go with my gut whenever possible. Otherwise, it costs me more in the long run when I inevitably get the thing I really wanted in the first place.

So, I'll be getting the Troll and thanks to you all, I'm confident it will be a good bike.
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Old 10-06-19, 08:52 PM
  #31  
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Well I hope if you get one that you find it is the right bike.
I was cleaning bikes yesterday so took some photos of the two dropouts to show diff wheel positions.
Brown one the 10 spd 2017 model with wheel set all the way in, and my black one with the monkey nut thing in there, and consequent disc mount position.
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Old 10-06-19, 08:54 PM
  #32  
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Old 10-06-19, 09:12 PM
  #33  
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Hey no problem, hope some of it helped.
I did read that the monkey nuts help with some tires not interfering with the fd. My bike was set up as a mtb with chunky knobby tires, so maybe that's why they were put on.

One attraction for me with 26ers is lower gearing slightly compared to bigger wheels, maybe stronger wheels due to shorter spokes (might be old wives tales) and finding 26 in tires easier in some developing countries in small shops.

All pluses to me for some of my trips
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Old 10-06-19, 09:48 PM
  #34  
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Monkey Nuts give more clearance for fenders. May be other reasons for them.
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Old 10-07-19, 04:33 AM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by alan s
Monkey Nuts give more clearance for fenders. May be other reasons for them.
that makes complete sense, setting the wheel closer to the end of the bike means it increases the chance of getting the wheel and tire past the fender without having to loosen it.
I'd never thought of that. If I ever put fenders on my wifes bike, I would look into getting another set.
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Old 10-07-19, 07:22 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by djb
that makes complete sense, setting the wheel closer to the end of the bike means it increases the chance of getting the wheel and tire past the fender without having to loosen it.
I'd never thought of that. If I ever put fenders on my wifes bike, I would look into getting another set.
Actually, the added clearance is at the chainstays and bridge, on the older style frame, with wide tires. I set the fender pretty close to the rear wheel, so loosening the fender is always necessary.
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Old 10-07-19, 09:34 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by alan s
Actually, the added clearance is at the chainstays and bridge, on the older style frame, with wide tires. I set the fender pretty close to the rear wheel, so loosening the fender is always necessary.
I did have to add an aluminum spacer at the bridge area, to get my fender closer to the front of the wheel near the fd

what I meant was that at the rear, at least you gain the 14mm of the monkey nut thing of having to slide the wheel back less out of the horiz dropout, and given that I purposely left more space between tires and fender, I have enough room not to have to loosen the rear fender.

but I realize that the choice of more space isnt for everyone, and fenders will work better closer for less water going all over.
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Old 10-07-19, 11:14 AM
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Are monkey nuts and tugnutts more or less interchangeable if the goal is just to move the wheel back some (with a derailleur - not an IGH)? Is it necessary to increase the chain length when making relatively small adjustments like these or does the derailleur have enough built-in slack for that?
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Old 10-07-19, 04:07 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Txthroop
Are monkey nuts and tugnutts more or less interchangeable if the goal is just to move the wheel back some (with a derailleur - not an IGH)? Is it necessary to increase the chain length when making relatively small adjustments like these or does the derailleur have enough built-in slack for that?
thought I answered but it went and disappeared.

re interchangeability etc of the diff ones, I dont know, but Im sure some Surly searching can find out.

re chain length--nope, you set chain length by the big/big combo of chainrings and rear largest cog. Look up Park tools video series to help and understand with bike mechanic stuff, specifically on how to size a new chain. Easiest way is put new chain on big big, dont run it through the rd pulleys, bring ends together and add two links. Straightforward and fast to do.
I always double check on the net to make sure Im doing it right, buts its very straight forward.
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Old 10-07-19, 08:10 PM
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Thanks, djb. I really appreciate all your help.

I stopped by the LBS and brought home a "new" 2017 Troll this evening. It was collecting dust at the shop but except for the color, it seems like everything is the same as the current model. The worst part about it is that color - brown. The best parts are everything else No pics yet but I'll get one for you guys since you've been such a big help. I won't have time to ride for the next couple days so look for something later this week.
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Old 10-08-19, 06:54 AM
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Tell everybody it is Hershey brown, then it will look better.
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Old 10-08-19, 10:45 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by boomhauer
but the goal was to have a bike that I could ride without much maintenance ....since I hate maintenance. It is worth the initial trouble.
hey, I meant to comment on this earlier, but forgot.
Given that you hate doing maintenance, give some thought to those tough plastic German made chain covers that cover the chainring, the rear cog and both exposed parts of the chain inbewtween.
Its an enclosed system that will keep all the dirt and mud and crap off the chain--which given a IGH, keeping the chain lubed properly and clean is the only real thing to deal with--the straight chain line fits perfectly with an enclosed chain guard, and its a complete given that you dont have to clean/lube the chain very often as its not getting crud on it, and as someone who doesnt like maintenance, you wont have to flip the rear sprocket for wear, or replace the chain all that often.
It just makes sense to me, take away abrasive stuff getting onto a chain, chainring teeth and rear cog teeth, and you'll be probably doubling or tripling the chain life and wear on rohlof cogs.

If I were to go the rohlof route, I would seroiusly look into this product. I cant recall the brand that makes it, but it would have real life advantages for less work or attention paid to drivetrain cleanliness and would pay real life benefits as per chain life and cog wear over time.

if I were doing a lot of dirt road riding, this would be top of my list. Same with rain, and especially rain and dirt roads...
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Old 10-08-19, 10:55 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Txthroop
Thanks, djb. I really appreciate all your help.

I stopped by the LBS and brought home a "new" 2017 Troll this evening. It was collecting dust at the shop but except for the color, it seems like everything is the same as the current model. The worst part about it is that color - brown. The best parts are everything else No pics yet but I'll get one for you guys since you've been such a big help. I won't have time to ride for the next couple days so look for something later this week.
no probs.
hey, they are pretty neat bikes, take care of it and it will retain its value for a along time, if for some reason you decide you dont like it. There are very few used ones, and they are very sought after, especially given that they are a bike that can be set up so many diff ways.

and yes, I find the colour to be rather "blah". My wife didnt care and it was such a good deal, I jumped at it, figuring what I said to you, that if it didnt work out, I could resell it very easily. There are folks out there looking for a solid bike to do big trips on, and the Troll is still one of them.
I assume its stock and has the 2.5 ET tires on it, and Jones bars? Very soon afterwards, I bought some deore 10 spd trigger shifters, which is imo nicer to ride/shift with compared to the thumbies.
I may one day reuse these thumbies on my Gevenalle shifters and switch it to 10 spd (if I can do the switch, if not mine will stay 9 spd)

re gearing, dont forget that its easy to change the granny gear 26t chainring to a 24 or even 22 if you need lower gearing. A cheap and easy way to get it lower than the already very nice low of 19 gear inches with the 2.5in tires. I put 1.5in tires on my wifes bike, so its low is now 18 gear inches, nice and low and very useful and makes climbs so much easier if needed.
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Old 10-08-19, 02:47 PM
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Originally Posted by djb
...
Given that you hate doing maintenance, give some thought to those tough plastic German made chain covers that cover the chainring, the rear cog and both exposed parts of the chain inbewtween.
Its an enclosed system that will keep all the dirt and mud and crap off the chain--which given a IGH, keeping the chain lubed properly and clean is the only real thing to deal with--the straight chain line fits perfectly with an enclosed chain guard, and its a complete given that you dont have to clean/lube the chain very often as its not getting crud on it, and as someone who doesnt like maintenance, you wont have to flip the rear sprocket for wear, or replace the chain all that often.
It just makes sense to me, take away abrasive stuff getting onto a chain, chainring teeth and rear cog teeth, and you'll be probably doubling or tripling the chain life and wear on rohlof cogs.
...
It is called a chainglider. I do not use one, but those that use it love it. Users boast of longer chainlife, minimal maintenance and they claim their kids do better in school. (Ok, they don't claim that about their kids, but almost.)
https://www.hebie.de/en/protection/c...ainglider/350/

Because I do not use one and do not plan to, I have not been following the latest details. Rohloff switched from using a threaded sprocket to a splined sprocket with carrier a few years ago. And I am not sure if the chainglider plays well with the different system. If interested, research it. SJS website says it won't work, but that might not be up to date.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/chainset...for-38t-black/
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Old 10-08-19, 04:13 PM
  #45  
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thanks.
seems to me it would be great to have on a bike. Maybe it rubs and makes an annoying noise...?
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Old 10-16-19, 10:04 AM
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Here she is! I've been able to ride about 30 miles since I brought it home and it's been more fun than I expected. Very different from the 26" LHT and I really like it. It's higher, more nimble, seems to roll a little smoother and stops on a dime. Here are my first thoughts:

Wheel size - Although they're still 26" wheels, I underestimated how much of a difference going from 1.5" tires (LHT) to 2.5" tires would make. Between the softer ride and the slightly improved attack angle, they really feel like a luxury.

Seat - Unfortunately, some of that luxury is lost in translation with a stock saddle that isn't comfortable for me. I'm thinking of trying one of the carved Brooks Cambium saddles. C15 or C17?

Disc brakes - Avid BB7s. Fantastic! This is my first bike with disc brakes and - strictly for stopping power - they're great. What remains to be seen is my experience with maintaining them and maintaining the bike parts around them. People seem to have a love/hate relationship with disc brakes and I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Taking wheels on and off seems to be a more delicate operation than with rim brakes. Also, I think I hear subtle pings and tings coming from the rotors. Could just be the spokes settling in but I'm thinking more the brakes. I'll be looking at them more closely.

Jones Loop bars and cockpit: Very comfortable so far and I'm quickly getting used to the thumb shifters.

Crank arms: Definitely need more time to evaluate this one. The Troll has 175mm cranks, which is up from the 170s I have on the Trucker. This is a very noticeable difference to me but I'm not sure if it's better/just different/worse.

I have installed front and rear racks now but haven't been out with a load on it yet. I'm very interested to see how it rides when loaded.

I think my biggest conundrum at the moment is what kind of fenders to try with the 26x2.5" Extra Terrestrial tires. There's nothing out there I can find to fit these. The Planet Bike Cascadias come in a 26x60mm size or 29x65mm; the first may be too narrow, the second may leave a huge gap between the fender and the tire. SKS has these https://www.sks-germany.com/en/produ...els-75-u-long/ but they will likely have the same gap issue. Has anyone had any luck with fenders for this size tire?

In my initial excitement for the new Troll, I was worried my LHT might get relegated to the back corner of the shed. However, since the roads were wet on Monday and the Troll doesn't have fenders yet, I rode the Trucker to work. I was happy to realize I still love that bike and I'm less concerned about neglecting it now.
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Old 10-16-19, 01:11 PM
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I use SKS X-blade and Shock Blade, and, yes, there's a gap. Especially when I run my narrower tires (26 x 2.3), but the extra space makes wheel changes easier, even if it does let a little extra water through. Didn't know the Troll came with 175 cranks. If you're not sold on them, I'd swap in some 170s. One of the first things I noticed when switching from my LHT to my Troll was that the higher bb made me much less susceptible to pedal strikes. That can be canceled a bit by the longer cranks, I'd think. I've always run 170 on mine.
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Old 10-16-19, 03:06 PM
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I think you will like that bike. Like I said before, tell people it is Hershey brown, that makes the color more palatable.

Touring on 26 inch wheels, if the trip will mostly be on pavement I use 40mm wide Marathons (with Greenguard), if more of the trip will be on gravel, I use 50mm wide tires, and if I expect some difficult terrain I use 57mm wide tires. You will find that there are wide tires that have low rolling resistance and others that have very high resistance, so be careful when tire shopping. I do not have a Troll, the widest tires I can fit on one of my bikes are 57mm.

Discs, avoid getting any oil or lube or any chemicals on them. That can contaminate the pads. Skin oils can also be a problem.

If you get any knee pain where you did not have pain on your LHT, you might want to switch to 170mm crank arms.

Originally Posted by Txthroop
...

In my initial excitement for the new Troll, I was worried my LHT might get relegated to the back corner of the shed. However, since the roads were wet on Monday and the Troll doesn't have fenders yet, I rode the Trucker to work. I was happy to realize I still love that bike and I'm less concerned about neglecting it now.
I regularly ride several different bikes. It is personal preference, but I think most people have more than one bike and ride the one that is best equipped for a particular ride. A couple months from now, for me that decision will be based solely on whether or not I feel I need studded tires.
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Old 10-16-19, 06:47 PM
  #49  
djb
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Re the tires, in the photo of my bike in Honduras, those are 2in tires, and while the et's run fairly well on pavement, I'd only use them for predominantly dirt riding, and loose and rocky stuff.
You might want to hold off on fenders until you're sure.

Lots of interesting tires out there. I just like the supremes but many other great options, and the 2in Supremes roll nicely and still great over rough surfaces.

My sks fenders probably wouldn't fit with the 2.5 et's but they might. I think they are the 55 model, but not sure.

Brakes-Yup for me they are great. Strong, simple, and I've figured out the technical screwing around to make them work now. Loaded the bike stops very well, but remember, I'm a light guy.

Cranks, mine are 175 and to be honest, although I thought I'd prefer 170 or 172.5, they and my knees get along and I've spent months on the bike with no issues, so for me at 5 10 ish, works for me.

Seat... Hey, personal. I did have a c17 that works well, although I prefer my leather b17s more, but again, personal...

I too really like how its nimble.
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Old 10-18-19, 06:58 AM
  #50  
djb
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probably too late to bring this up, but do be careful of crossthreading rack bolts etc, I found that on my wifes bike, the same year as yours, that either paint or just tight clearances made for sometimes very hard tightening required of rack bolts--now I actually see this as a good thing, as the bolts are very secure and I didnt put any loctite on them, and they seem to have stayed tighter over time compared to other bikes in my past--but I could see that you could more easily do a cross thread boo boo.

I imagine you've gotten a rear rack already, I think you said you did.
If not, the trek aluminum double layer one is reasonably priced and has long adjustable rods that worked well for my wifes XS frame, which needed longer rods. I used a tubus logo just because I had seen many photos of them on trolls, so I knew they worked, and I was planning long trips so spent more on the racks because of this.
The Trek backrack deluxe seems well made and Ive used similar alum racks for decades with no issues, and having the lower rails for your panniers is nice to bring the weight down lower. Especially the xs frame with 26in wheels is a lot better with this type of rack that brings the panniers lower, easier moving the bike around.

re fenders--if you do end up getting some and have mounting questions, I can show photos of how I used aluminum spacers to work around hiccups. A really good mechanic helped me a lot with ideas, stuff I would have taken forever to figure out.
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