KC8QVO

Is it just me or do you find loaded bikes more stable also?

I suppose a lot of it has to do with where the weight is - down low off the sides of racks vs on top.

I rode my folder yesterday for a day trip and it actually handled speed and going around turns a lot better. The "twitchyness" of the small wheels seemed like it was absorbed by the weight more. Not sure on weight, but between food, camp stove, coffee thermos, water bottles, gear, lots of clothes, and my battery to run my electronics I was probably around 30lbs + bike weight (26lbs I believe). That was the heaviest this bike as been. With just the bar bag (my usual for tools, snacks, etc) and a water bottle it is a lot more responsive - almost too responsive.

stardognine

Definitely more stable, if you're a stringbean like me. 😁 I was amazed to see recently, that I weigh 155, exactly what I weighed when I graduated H.S. 🙄

I really noticed it yesterday, coming down a mountain, with semis passing, plus a high wind advisory in effect. 😳 I wasn't aware of the wind advisory, or probably would have waited another day.

Maybe this helps explain, why I'm not exactly a weight-weenie, about tools & such. 😉

KC8QVO

I'm about the same, a bit lighter. As for the wind - I hate wind. Especially if I go out for a day trip (out and back) and I have a tail wind going out. Fly with the wind on the way out and crank like heck on the way back - after being worn out from the miles.

Tourist in MSN

The big coffee thermos makes the bike look better to us coffee drinkers.

KC8QVO

It is heavier and more bulk, but it certainly is faster having ready-made coffee.

I have a method for brewing up coffee with my camp stove set up where I use a plastic water bottle (disposable kind with the screw cap). I cut the bottom off and use the top/cap side as a funnel. Then I zip tie a coffee filter to the ring below where the cap goes (right side up, or upside down when brewing coffee it would be above the ring). Then I put ground coffee in the bottle. Then I pour boiling water in and let the coffee run out in to a thermos. This keeps the mess contained to the water bottle and filter and keeps the pot clean.

However, a stronger and more sure bet way to make coffee I've done is to put the grounds straight in the pot and heat that way. It is a bit harder as I don't like to get the water boiling (boiling over-cooks the coffee). However, it comes out stronger. Once it is brewed I strain with the same bottle/filter method above to keep the grounds out of the thermos. It makes more of a mess, though, because coffee grounds are now in the pot.

So I guess it all depends on how I want to do it. If I am on a trip where I can't brew at home before I go then it's a toss-up what way I do it. Some of it depends on the coffee also. I've found coarse-ground coffee to come out weaker with the grounds in the bottle/filter. Whereas regular, more finely ground coffee works better. So brewing straight in the pot with coarse ground ends up better.

Most of the time I use an MSR Simmerlite white gas stove - backpacking and biking, but also on the road too some. I have a butane/canister stove that is real easy and quick to use, but it is tall, unstable, and I can't control the heat well (I like a lower heat flame and this one goes out too easy at the temp I want it). The Simmerlite has worked better over the years. Plus the fuel is cheaper.

andrewclaus

At some higher speeds, you might get a shimmy with load that's not there unloaded. Lots of variables, from load mounting and position, to tires and bearings, to frame material dynamics, to the phase of the moon and how you part your hair.

I remember jumping on my bike after unloading it from my first multi-week tour, and I fell right off the other side. I was used to the inertia of the load keeping the bike up.

stardognine

Ha, I almost did that today. 😁 I took everything off the bike, to adjust my saddle's angle a smidge, and when I tried getting on for a short test ride, I lifted the weight of the load, that wasn't really there. 🤔😉 It wouldn't have mattered, but an attractive female saw it, and couldn't help laughing a bit. After my initial embarrasment, I had to laugh too. 😊😉

DeadGrandpa

I loaded my carbon "Adventure" bike with a handlebar roll, frame bag and rear rack with medium panniers. I was going to back country dirt and gravel roads and was loaded with a week's worth of food and two days of water. On paved roads before I exited civilization, it was fine where the road was flat, but downhill it shimmied badly and I abandoned the ride.

I later solved the problem with an ExtraWheel trailer and no rear rack on the bike. That was fine for pavement, but I got a rigid plus bike for back country rides. Overall, a "bikepacking" bike is a bit more top heavy than my previous touring bike (with front and rear panniers), but you gotta use the proper tool for the task.

PedalingWalrus

On single bikes - definitely more stable
On our tandem bike - need to distribute weight evenly for optimal stability

staehpj1

Interesting. For me the problems with my Dahon (mine is a Helios) were twofold and both may have an effect on how/if I'd manage with a load on the bike.

First I never found that I could set it up for a riding posture that I liked. Getting anything like the position on my road or touring bike was impossible (I like them both set up pretty much the same). I gave up on that and decided that it was okay as is for a casual upright tooling around town posture with the bars kind of high and close. I did chop a little off the front mast to allow the bars to go a little lower and considered adding a stem with some reach and drop bars, but decided it was futile to try to make the bike something it wasn't.

Second, I found that the masts flexed badly if you pedaled in a way that applied any lateral pressure to the bars or saddle. I found that okay for casual tooling around on flat ground but not so great for climbing of harder/faster riding.

For me both of those factors pretty much ruled out riding with much of a load on the Dahon. Hauling a bag of groceries on flat ground back to the boat in port now and then was a fine use. It also ruled out anything resembling performance riding.

It is hard to separate stability from the crazy flexing of the masts, but I found the ride horrible with my loaded Dahon Helios. I ruled out touring on it entirely in the past. Since then I started packing ultralight and now can manage with 10-12 pounds of camping/cooking gear. I could possibly manage the Dahon better now with that lighter load, but am not sure I want to since I am not crazy about the Dahon's ride even unladen. Just maybe I might consider it for a tour where it's ability to fold is a real advantage. I have not ridden it in a few years, maybe I should give it another chance since I have a possible tour in the works where a folder might have an advantage.

staehpj1

On my non-folders I always found the load unsettling at first. I like to be able to throw the bike around a little. I like to be able to rock it side to side a little when accelerating or climbing. Maybe the bike is more stable when loaded, but I always took quite a while before I settled into the feeling of it. Even then I never really liked it. I did get used to it though. When I rode an unladen bike again after a few weeks or months on a loaded one it was a shock, but it took only a few minutes to readjust and it was a great feeling of joyous freedom. I guess that is why I love ultralight touring.

So yes stability, but to me not really in a way that I enjoy.

bikenh

Try placing all the weight on one side of the bike and then go ride it and see how well you like. You need to keep the weight evenly dispersed between both sides of the bike for it to help any. Does it help any, probably. I haven't ridden with front panniers as of yet but I would tend to think they would help out even more than rear panniers, especially as the speed gets higher/going downhill.

KC8QVO

Interesting assessment. Maybe I don't ride as "hard" as you do, but I have never sensed flexing in the "mast", as you call it. I am not putting much force on the bars in my pedaling strokes - and again, I am not riding "hard". I suppose climbing hills is the exception, but even in those circumstances I haven't felt anything flex.

That is one of the attributes that impresses me about the bike I have, actually. For such a small bike it is very ridable for me - and even with a decent load. Maybe it is a newer design that minimizes the flexiness you allude to, or just a different model/design. I wouldn't think twice about taking the Mariner D8 for a tour if a compact bike was going to be better than a full-size. I do want to put better bars on it and a second chain ring to drop the gearing lower for climbing, but even as it sits it is a good bike.

staehpj1

My Helios is at least 12 years old and I have not ridden it in quite a few years. I definitely have not used it since I moved to Tallahassee 5 years or so ago.

At times, I tend to mash a big gear and side load it so I tend to flex a frame whether a folder or not. I suspect it was worse when I was a strong young man, now as an old man it may be less true. I probably ought to get it out and take it for a spin and see if I still feel the same way about it.

Tourist in MSN

I think I recall that you at one time said you used to race. Your comments above makes your riding style a bit more clear. Sounds like you are still racing when you are touring.

I have bad knees, I have not stood on the pedals to accelerate for over a decade, my knees are much happier that way. The last time I stood on the pedals to accelerate, I limped for a month or two after that. It would never occur to me to apply any lateral force on any part of any bike I am riding, especially one that I am touring on.

I have done some brevets but no racing of any kind.

***

I do not have a Dahon, my folding bike is an Airnimal with 24 inch (507) wheels. If you are curious, photos at this link:
Folders in the wild - post your photos

I initially found the seatpost mast extension to be more flexible than I liked, but after several hundred miles I got quite used to it. I never noticed any side to side flex, but I did notice fore and aft flex at saddle height.

The reach on that bike is shorter than I normally use, but I have the handlebars lower to accommodate that handlebar position, thus my upper body has about the same forward lean on that bike as on my touring bikes. That lower handlebar height might also reduce any steerer tube extension flex too.

staehpj1

Perhaps, but maybe decreasingly so as I approach 70. Still yes a lot of what I love about cycling is the feelings of riding that I relate to riding in my younger years. I did a tour on my 1990 race bike a few years ago and may do a tour on it again this coming year.

The Airnimal always kind of fascinated me, but I never had the chance to ride one. It looks as if the Airnimal, unlike the Dahon, can be set up to fit the way I'd like it to. The much lower bar position I prefer would probably eliminate at least some if not most of the flex in the front mast. The long seat mast remains, but I suspect that I might be more able to live with that, not sure though.

At the time I bought the folder I was mostly just looking for something to keep on the sailboat and the Dahon was more in the price range I was willing to spend for that. At other times I considered a folder or a coupled bike for touring, but never wanted to deal with a case because I did point to point tours and that complicated what to do with a hard case. Shipping it ahead to the tour end point seemed like too much of an expense/hassle to the extent that it negated the advantage.

These days more airlines have finally started to have more reasonable policies for bikes in oversize boxes, so my interest has waned. The times I might use a folder these days are for a trip where I might use Greyhound or where I might want to take a bike along on a non cycling trip with my wife who no longer rides. I don't think I can justify the expense of a real nice folder like the Airnimal, but might take the Dahon along. I kind of wished I had the Dahon along when I was in Hawaii recently, but wanted to be able to take an empty bag to bring back some koa lumber.

I probably shouldn't look at the current offerings from Airnimal. I might be tempted

djb

KC, I thought of this topic yesterday when I commuted and the winds were gusting up to 60, 70, 80kph

over the years, I have certainly noticed that when riding a bike with heavy panniers, it certainly makes it easier in gusty windy conditions, which is nice. Yesterday I had two full panniers, one with books in it, and the bike wasnt too bad for being blown around, despite me being a lightweight.

Ive ridden through some very windy areas in other countries, and was I glad the bike was fully loaded, although there were times that it was so bad that after struggling for hours with terrible gusty sidewinds and passing trucks changing the wind flow and adding their own bow waves , my hands were toast after an hour or two from fighting the bike to stay on line and not get blown into the path of passing traffic.

that experience convinced me I had made the right decision to use slightly flared out drop bars, as being in the wider drops a lot was the saving grace for struggling along in the granny gear on the flat, and fighting to keep the bike straight constantly.

Tourist in MSN

Mine is the Joey model. They made a lot of good changes to mine after I bought the frame and fork in 2006. I would not be surprised if the current one is stiffer too.

I bought frame and fork and built it up to use for airline travel. It was a mistake on my part to buy, it was billed as the best handling folder that would not exceed the airline specifications for luggage size, but a year or two after I built it up I learned that Airnimal being a UK company used British Air airline luggage criteria that was more generous than USA. Thus, the bike case that Airnimal sold for it was not sold in USA. I only learned that when I tried to buy the case well after I built it up. And then the dealer told me it would not fit in any USA airline sized case of 62 inches. Thus, the bike was permanently stored in the back of my truck in case I drove somewhere and wanted to go for a bike ride, was not used for its original purpose of airline travel.

A decade later when I came home from my Iceland trip, after taking my S&S bike out of the S&S Backpack case I was looking in the case thinking that was a huge amount of room, maybe my folder would fit. Tried to see if my Airnimal would fit, and with enough disassembly it would. So, for the first 10 years that I owned it, I could have traveled on airplanes with it, but was given bad information so did not try. Fast forward to the present, I am retired and no longer travel by air for work, retired years ago so have only taken it on a plane once. That one time I flew Southwest, my S&S Backpack case was my second free checked bag so it flew for free.

I think the Joey model that I have was made more for commuters, less for performance cyclists. I think you would be much happier with the Chameleon model which is more racy. I have 24 inch (507mm) tires on mine, that is a bike tire often used on kids bikes. But the Chameleon I think only comes in 24 inch (520mm) tires that are more racy. Years ago Airnimal even advertised that someone rode a Chameleon in a triathlon event and the rider was on the podium.
https://www.bikeradar.com/reviews/bi...-ultra-review/

As you know, all folders are compromises, the better they fold the worse the ride, etc. The Airnimals do not fold as easily or as compact as other folders but have a better ride. Thus, do not think the Airnimal would be as portable as your Dahon, it probably would not be.

Tourist in MSN

I hate days like that. I usually just sit those days out, like the day when I was sitting in the bakery getting some breakfast and took the photo of my phone, below.

djb

I only had short distances to ride, so took the chance.
I was able to take quiet streets and go on sidewalks when needed, and was lucky for the gusts all in all.

Tourist in MSN

The day that I went to that bakery for breakfast, had a tailwind for that part of the ride. On the ride back to the campground, walked the bike almost the whole way, was only a couple of km. When the gusts hit me while walking I would grab the brake levers so I did not lose headway as I walked.

staehpj1

Yeah for me and for touring in particular a less convenient fold would certainly be acceptable if it allowed better performance or other advantages.

Then again the idea of a folder (or a coupled bike for that matter) is getting a bit moot for me since the airlines have started to allow full sized bikes to fly as one of your regular checked bags. As I said, I may use my Dahon for certain things, but don't think I am too likely to invest much in a nice folder these days. On the other hand situations change and a need might arise. If I were to find myself living on a sailboat full or part time or something one might be just the ticket. Stranger things have happened. Not too many years ago I didn't expect to be boat-less or living in Florida.

KC8QVO

I was just catching up on the last couple posts in this thread and happened to re-read this. Reading it after my last trip it had a whole other meaning having gone through high winds fully loaded too. Interesting experience. At least in my case the wind was in the direction of the side of the road and not in to traffic...

djb

that experience actually had the wind blowing towards my side of the road, so coming from the left, but the wind wasn't consistent, and the narrow shoulder then had a dropoff of at least a couple of inches onto dirt, but then just a few feet over more was a steep embankment, so I had to work not to get blown over the edge, but the on/off gusts always had me moving around from my steering input or body weight corrections.
When a truck would pass, sometimes close, their bow wave would push me further out to the right, so I'd have to anticipate this, and increase my corrections to not be blown onto the side down off the dropoff, but then a second later the trucks draft would suck me towards the side of the truck, so it was a constant back and forth of working to stop being blown one direction and having to react super fast to not get sucked in towards the truck.

wasnt fun, but it was what it was.

another time, when riding through a different area with strong winds, we met two cycle tourers who had had to take a day or two off because the winds were just too strong, and the woman had been blown right off the road, as her scraped up handlebars confirmed.

so yup, sometimes you just draw a short straw, and like in your case, it messes up your expected day.
One thing you learn with cycle touring is that its always a good idea to have some extra days for unexpected stuff, weather or whatever.

and we arent robots, we cant cycle along at a consistent speed all day, like Google maps or a paper napkin calculation will suggest....we often get slower as the day goes on, or need more breaks.

AngeloDolce

Are those normal panniers with 20 inch wheels? If so, do you have a frame to provide a higher attachment point for the panniers, or how do you attach them with smaller wheels? On my folder with 20 inch wheels, the rack seems too low to hold larger panniers. (I'll have to try a saddle bag.)