djb

you read of how in a totally muddy cruddy cyclocross race, pads can get ground down to nothing in short order, which is bonkers.
I've luckily never toured in conditions like this, certainly not for long anyway, and not with extended downhills.
Even with unloaded riding I haven't been in bad conditions too much, and certainly not where extended braking waa required.

staehpj1

I have done a lot of muddy riding off road with rim brakes and a good bit with discs as well most of it MTB-ing and not as much touring. I have has issues with worn out pads on tour and replace pads often. Once in the Appalachians I feared I was going to be walking the downhills until I got to a bike shop. I lucked out and ran into some friends I had met earlier in the trip and they had some (2) spare pads. The pads I had looked like they had more wear than they did because there were metal ridges protruding into the compound otherwise I'd have replaced them sooner.

The bigger problem IME is that rims wear out with rim brakes. I have replaced rims in the middle of a tour a couple times because of rim wear. It is much easier to replace a rotor. You could even carry a spare if you wanted to. I have gotten to really like discs in recent years and while most of my bikes still have rim brakes, my preference is now for discs.

With discs you still need to replace pads, but less often IME and you don't wear out the rims.

phughes

Why are people braking so much downhill? The only time I brake going downhill is when the cars ahead of me are going too slow and I have to brake to slow to their speed. At the same time I am muttering about stupid slow drivers. I live in the Pittsburgh area, and we have plenty of hills. I also commuted in the Ozarks, which also has lots of hills. Both places gave me speeds of up to 45 mph on downhills if I wanted to push, and in the Pittsburgh area, that is coupled with nice curves. You can keep the speeds down more by sitting upright, using wind resistance to slow you down.

Oh, and rims last a long time. If you are wearing rims out in two years, you are doing it wrong. See above.

staehpj1

Yeah, I have ridden place where you could descend 5000' without braking. I have also ridden where the turns were super tight or the surface really bad and speed needed to be kept low.
Depends on how many miles per year you are riding and what kind of miles. I think I might have worn out a MTB rim in two years at some point when I was riding a lot of muddy runs and riding pretty close to daily back in the day. On the road I don't think I have ever worn out a rim in less 60-70k miles (best guess), but someone might do that in two years.

phughes

I just think the rim wearing out argument is ridiculous. We rode rim brakes for many years. It never was really an issue. Disc brakes didn't exist. That is not to say I think rim brakes are better than disc. Disc brakes are fantastic. I just don't see rim brakes as being particularly bad. They do have to be set up properly though, just like anything. It's just that back in the 70s and 80s, I didn't hear all my friends complaining they had to replace their rim because the braking surface wore out. There are plenty of reasons disc brakes are a good choice, there is no need to manufacture a fiction about rims wearing out quickly in order to justify buying a bike with disc brakes if you choose. I still ride rim brakes and have no issues.

As for the Long Haul Trucker, I have one, with rim brakes. I do not like the new Disc Trucker as much as my LHT. It has nothing to do with the brakes though, it is the new frame design. They took everything I liked about the LHT, and changed those points. It's a great bike, and well designed, but I prefer the old design better. Personal preference.

veganbikes

Plenty more people buy eeBrakes and Paul stuff otherwise they wouldn't exist and their stuff wouldn't sell out quickly. But yeah I get other people make rim brakes I wasn't stating they don't I am just saying when the really good stuff is gone we will see the signs. Paul has been keeping a lot of older school stuff alive for a long time and the eeBrakes are fantastic, it has ZERO to do with so called elitism is all about really excellent braking. You can get fine braking from TRP or Shimano brakes I have and still use them on some bikes with no qualms but having used eeBrakes and Paul brakes on bikes I have felt better braking.

I know it is hard to deal with quality costing money, I would love to see eeBrakes come way down in price, I would still buy them if they cost half as much or even less because I think the system offers better braking. It is not so much show but better performance and a unique design that I really do think works quite well. Though admittedly, yes, the El Chulo edition did match my road bike and that is why I got those, it was superficial but I am sure you have had a similar moment with something in your life and if not congrats you a true martyr.

I think you have missed a lot of posts because I frequently tout the benefits of upgrading cables, housing, pads and shoes to improve braking before upgrading calipers. Though yes I have recommended the Jagwire Elite Link system so I guess that could be considered elitism but that just happens to be what they call it. I also have suggest the Allez Elite for a road bike which is actually not the top end for Specialized but it again uses the word "elite" so I guess if you are really grasping at straws you could consider that elitism as well.

When you start to see the higher end stuff going out of production you start to see things go down in quality and move further and further down till it is harder to find. Downtube shifters are starting to significantly go away though they are still making them "for the 6 people that buy them each year". (for the record aside from position I do like downtube shifters but with Gevenalle and Paul thumbies mounts you can move those to a better position and I don't want to see them go away nor do I want an end to rim brakes)

staehpj1

I think it is a factor. For some mayne not much of one for others a bigger one, depending in part on the usage and conditions. Before discs were popular I never complained about wearing rims out because that was just the way it was. Rims were just something that got replaced at some interval with some kinds of usage. With other usage they last much longer. Now discs are an option that allows for avoiding that. Are rim brakes terrible? No. I still have them on most of my bikes, all of my road oriented bikes in fact.

I am 70 years old and have ridden my whole life. In that time I think I have replaced about 5 or 6 worn out rims. Some years I was riding 10k miles per year and some not much at all. Some of that time I was racing mountain bikes on the muddy trails of Maryland, Pennsylvania, Virginia, and West Virginia. Some years all of it on paved roads. So for me I'd say it is a factor. Not a huge one though.

Doug64

phughes

Sure it is a factor. My opinion though, is that the argument is ridiculous. It is not a situation where you will be on tour and suddenly you need a new rim. It takes quite a while to wear out the braking surface of a rim. They last a long time. The rim braking surface wearing out is the last criteria I would use for justifying disc brakes over rim brakes.

veganbikes

You filthy elitist
The funny thing with Paul is his stuff isn't always traditionally sexy it is a very utilitarian look in a lot of cases but that does it for me. It is just good quality stuff made in the U.S. that has shown to work well.

djb

Lets face it, wear that causes a rim to be replaced happens over a long time, or on a really long expedition type trip that probably 90% of us aren't doing, and even then it's only going to be an issue in yucky riding conditions.

And if course some people brake a lot more than others, which can be a factor.

Tourist in MSN

In my case on Pacific Coast, you get to the bottom of an 8 percent grade, sharp 90 degree turn to go over a bridge and then another sharp turn to start climbing up an 8 percent grade.

And I stupidly thought that I had gotten my bad shimmy figured out at home, so I brought the bike with a frame that Surly was was perfectly normal when I filed a warranty claim. And the bad shimmy meant that if I went over 23 mph it became uncontrolable. I mentioned in my previous post that the frame went into the recycle bin when I got home. I talked to a frame builder about that frame, she described in great detail how the welder had messed up their heat settings on the bottom bracket shell welds and how that weakened the entire frame.

But, even if I had the best bike on earth, loaded down with camping gear, call me a wimp if you want but when the speed gets over 35 mph, I am putting on the brakes. Going down Going to the Sun Road, I stopped twice to check my rims, one of those times I decided the rims were warm enough that I should wait a while for them to cool. I have no desire to have a blowout.

Tourist in MSN

One of my neighbors blew out a rim from rim brake wear, but he commuted on that bike. And he had lots of corrosion issues from commuting in winter when there was a lot of de-icing chemicals on the roads. That was when he worked part time as a bike mechanic.

He said that his rim brakes started to rub, he was not sure why but he figured when he got to work he would put the bike up on the work stand and try to figure that out. But, less than a mile later his rim blew apart. His rubbing brake that he first notices was from when the rim started to separate.

balto charlie

Too funny. Lots of older bikes out there that fit your needs. I bet in the next 6-12 months used bikes will be flooding the market. Once large events, movies, restaurants etc open up folks will be selling their Covid period bikes.

balto charlie

One of my rims split, had to have 40K mikes on it, perhaps more. My daily commuter for many many years. I rode with the split rim for a few days before I realized how bad it was. Ultimately, it was a none issue. Just bought some new ones and was back in action. I have gotten rid of a few rims due to extreme wear, they were grooved out. Certainly not a reason not to buy them. I lost more rims due to potholes and rocks (mnt bikes) than wear.

robow

I've always found Kool Stop Salmon brake pads not only increase braking ability but also seem to be easier on my rims. These pads may wear down a little more quickly than some but I find that I can still get a couple years or more out of a pair and changing out cartridge pads is no big deal. Consider trying some if you seem to be wearing down your rims too quickly

phughes

So, did you wear your rim out every two years?

Many of us have hills. Many ride loaded. Many have rain. I used my bike for all my shopping for two Winters, so I had salt and traction material to deal with as well.

Okay, you have described my ride into town, except, I leave my house, turn left, 10 percent grade, up the same, 15 percent grade, down some, then 8, then... Or, if I go right, it is down an 8-12 percent grade with sharp curves. If I want to venture on through some of the back ways into the next town, there is one grade that is around 20 percent. Hills are hills.

Yes, if your bike is not stable, I get it. If it is fully loaded and you have a sensible speed limit you adhere to, I get it. Know your bike, and know your limits. That is just smart. am still amazed at how much sitting upright using your body as a sail slows you down. That, along with braking, but not staying on the brakes, keeps the speed down nicely.

I am fortunate that my bike is very stable at speed, even when fully loaded. I bought my LHT the largest size that would fit me, so I would have a little more wheelbase, and would have more of a French fit, which I believe makes a more stable bike than getting a smaller frame with the seat jacket up. It is dead stable at high speed. I hit a chunk of concrete going downhill at 40mph and it just kept going. The rim was flared out on each side where it hit, but the bike kept going straight. I was shocked. Many bikes don't ride like that at speed.

The question is, are you wearing out rims every two years? Do rims wear out? Yes. Do most people wear them out every two years? No. Can someone wear them out in two years? Sure, but I guarantee you would have to work at it. Rims are a wear item. Do disc brakes pose the same problem? No, but discs do wear, though they are easy to replace, and your load carrying capacity won't be compromised when they are worn. It is also easy to carry extra brake pads for disc brakes on tour. Of course you can carry rim brake pads too, but I have yet to wear a set out on a tour.

My point is not that rim brakes are the best brakes known to man, that's just ridiculous. My point isn't that the braking surface on a rim won't wear out on a bike with rim brakes. That too is ridiculous. My point is, the argument that rim brakes wear your rims out in two years, therefore you should not get a bike with rim brakes, and only use disc brakes, is absolutely ridiculous. We used rim brakes for years. Your bike won't explode, that only carbon fibre bikes.

The hyperbole regarding rim brakes on this thread is also ridiculous. The OP wants to find a LHT in his size, with the old frame style that has rim brakes. The the thread degraded into the horrors he is in for if he finds one. He will have to get two more jobs in order to pay for all the rims he will wear out. The horror. I still like rim brakes. My bike stops. I prefer to not have the added torsion on the spokes that comes with disc brakes. Personal preference. Rims for rim brakes with the same spoke count will usually be stronger than a rim made for disc brakes. If I needed a new touring bike, and all I could find was a model with disc brakes, would I dismiss it out of hand? No, of course not. I am sure I would be perfectly happy with it.

But the OP wants a LHT with rim brakes. I have one. I love it. The rims haven't worn out in 9 years, despite multiple tours, commuting, and pleasure riding, let alone two years. A lot of that pleasure riding has been on the GAP, which is crushed limestone, and the C&O, which is...mud. They will wear out at some point though. And yes, someone else could have worn them out in a year if they rode all day, every day, brakes a lot, never cleaned the rim surface, and generally beat the bike. But the argument is ridiculous when the OP simply want a bike with rim brakes. It's his choice.

saddlesores

really the main drawback from rim brakes is when
they (and/or) the fenders get clogged with mud.
especially that nasty, sticky, supergluey red clay.

detachable fenders are nice, but can't do that
with brakes......need to find a convenient pothole
full o'water to wash the caked mud off the brakes
and rims. no big deal, we're on tour, right? we
gots time to take ten minutes to clean off the rims.

wondering if some of the fast wearing out of rims
is caused by just trying to ignore the mud, figgering
it'll fall off eventually, gotta keep moving or else.

https://c8.alamy.com/comp/CX9HWB/mou...mud-CX9HWB.jpg

imi

Depends where you are. A 26” rim-brake wheel can be found just about anywhere in the world, the specific disk rotor for your system maybe impossible to find.

HTupolev

Depends on the region. Partly because of road and traffic design affecting the amount of required braking, partly because of an area's climate and chemistry.

The Seattle area is perpetually covered in a fine dust that never gets fully cleared from the roads, and which turns into a nasty abrasive when wet (and the roads are wet a lot here). I had one interesting comparison, two rims of the same model line, one on a bike that got used only in sunny weather and another on a bike that I was using near-exclusively in wet conditions: after around 1500 miles on each, the sunny-weather rim still looked new, the rainy-weather rim had very obvious concavity, and had burned through a hefty chunk of its safe usage life.

That was a fairly cheap rim and probably wearing faster than most, but it's not an unusual theme. Everybody who rides in the wet here is familiar with the situation. And yeah, there are people who burn through rims on a two-year cycle or faster, especially commuters.

I've also been in the room when the rim on someone's rain bike exploded due to brake track wear while airing it up before a ride. That's an extremely violent event: along a stretch of the rim the hooks separate from the rim base, there's a sound like a gunshot, and the tire blows off. If that failure had decided to happen during the ride, the fact that the guy hadn't checked his rim wear in a while could have resulted in serious injuries to himself and others (especially since it was on the front wheel).

staehpj1

Maybe. I have had the opposite problem though. I was riding a bike with 32 spoke 700 cm rims and was unable to source a rim that suited me without ordering and waiting. I was on tour and in a small-ish town in the middle of nowhere. I probably would have been able to find most reasonably standard rotors as this was a well stocked shop with all kinds of MTB parts. I think this is a fairly typical situation in much of the western US. I wound up buying a complete 36 spoke 7 speed wheel (it was a vintage 1990 bike which I still like and ride). My preference would have been a 32 hole Mavic Open Pro rim. What I got was a lesser rim with 32 spokes on a built up wheel. I was happy to have anything because the rim was worn out with chunks falling out of the braking surfaces and ready to completely fail at any moment. I knew the rim was near end of life, but figured it would last one more tour. It turned out that a month on the road was more than it had in it.

I used to subscribe to the practice of starting tours with everything fresh, but found that I wound up with tons of half worn stuff that never got used. So since my tours are all long or at least long-ish I started just changing stuff when needed even if during a tour. In this case I waited too long.

BobG

This 27" wheel (retired in '94 at age 12) has always been used with rim brakes. It has been ...

-across the US on the TransAm
-from CO to AB Canada (lots of gravel)
-from SK Canada to NM (lots of gravel)
-from SF to Crater Lake
-on a loop through BC
-from Zurich to Bordeaux
-from Geneva south through the Alps and back to Geneva
-around the perimeter of New Zealand's south island (some gravel side trips)
-around the Coromandel Peninsula on NZ's north island (including one single track)

Probably several other trips I've forgotten about. A generic Nashbar rim on a Campagnolo hub. The close up shows the normal striations that any rim will get over time ...





They would be good to go again but I've worn out the bike frame they were built for. The only rims I've worn out sidewalls on were MTB wheels back in the 90s when I was into muddy New England mountain biking.

Tourist in MSN

I commented I wore down some pads braking down hills on Pacific Coast.

You commented you could not figure out why people are braking down hill.

I gave a more lengthy response to my specific example.

I am not sure what your point is. I commented above that "Yeah, I have never completely wore out a rim brake track. I have noticeable wear on a couple rims, but still quite safe." And you then wrote this post starting with "So, did you wear your rim out every two years?"

One of my bikes has disc in back, rim brake on front. All my other bikes are rim brake. I am perfectly content with rim brakes.

Germany_chris

I don’t think rim brakes are dead but I wouldn’t buy a new bike that wasn’t thru axle and disc since that’s where the market is going.

The great bicycle shortage is showing that companies just won’t put effort into what they perceive as old. I can buy all sorts of new 28/32 disc wheels but Pacenti, VO, and Mavic are about it for in stock 32/36 rim brake. I’m sure we’ll start getting more in back in stock as the year goes on (looking at you Velocity) but they’re just not the future

phughes

My point is not about you or your situation, it is about the argument regarding rim brakes being bad because you will wear your rim out every two years, in answer to the OP who wants a rim brake style LHT, and is asking where to get one. Your situation is your situation, and I have no issue with it. Rim brakes work fine, and in many ways disc brakes are superior. That doesn't make rim brakes obsolete, or suddenly dangerous, and I know you never said that. The vast majority of people don't wear out rims every two years, but some can. That doesn't change the fact the OP simply wants a rim brake model LHT.