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Rim brake touring bikes extinct?

Old 03-15-21, 08:01 PM
  #101  
indyfabz
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Originally Posted by Fuji1986 View Post
Was her name Ellen by the way? (Won't use her last name to protect privacy.) I had a friend by that name who rode XC on a Volpe in '99 (Northern Tier).
OMG! Yes! Ellen. Small world!

The following year I was riding in Yellowstone when another woman who had been on the tour pulled alongside me in a car and said hello.

Last edited by indyfabz; 03-15-21 at 08:11 PM.
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Old 03-15-21, 08:07 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Fuji1986 View Post
Thanks for keeping eye out, but please don't spend too much time on it. I think it's a needle in a haystack at this point . . .
Don't worry, I look out of interest more than anything. Hope you find what you're looking for.
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Old 03-15-21, 08:09 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
OMG! Yes! Ellen. Small world! The following year I was riding in Yellowstone when another woman who had been on the tour pulled alongside me in a car and said hello.
Amazing. Small world indeed. I ran into her here in VT when she was visiting a couple of winters ago. Doing well, lives out west now. Your group came through my then-hometown in '99, and seeing her enthusiasm was one reason I did the Northern Tier myself three years later.
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Old 03-15-21, 08:30 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Fuji1986 View Post
Amazing. Small world indeed. I ran into her here in VT when she was visiting a couple of winters ago. Doing well, lives out west now. Your group came through my then-hometown in '99, and seeing her enthusiasm was one reason I did the Northern Tier myself three years later.
One day early on in the trip she and I volunteered to be “rabbits.” We started out early from Rockport, WA, to secure sites at Colonial Creek Campground for the rest of the group because you couldn’t reserve sites ahead of time. Our reward was not having to carry group groceries from Newhalem. Turned out the place was virtually empty. I had never camped before the trip. She showed me how one fills out the envelope and puts it in the iron ranger. We then dropped our gear and rode backwards to meet others in the group. Very strong rider.

Last edited by indyfabz; 03-15-21 at 08:35 PM.
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Old 03-15-21, 08:39 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
One day early on in the trip she and I volunteered to be “rabbits.” We started out early from Rockport, WA, to secure sites at Colonial Creek Campground for the rest of the group because you couldn’t reserve sites ahead of time. Our reward was not having to carry group groceries from Newhalem. Turned out the place was virtually empty. I had never camped before the trip. She showed me how one fills out the envelope and puts it in the iron ranger. We then dropped our gear and rode backwards to meet others in the group. Very strong rider.
Yep, very strong, only 21 or 22 years old then. I don't envy you guys having to take out Washington Pass in the first week--from sea level. I hit it on the next-to-last day going the other direction and was flying by that point. I remember buying a brick of fudge in Newhalem as my reward.
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Old 03-15-21, 08:45 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Does Bianchi still make that? One of the women in my ‘99 cross country trip rode one.
Yes, it is still made. My first Volpe was a 2007 and the one pictured is a 2013.

If your friend's Volpe was stock, she had to be tough. Her cranks were probably a 52/42/30 and the rear cluster was a 13-26. The 2007 was better with a 48/36/26 and an11-32 cluster, but after our XC trip, I still did some serious changes.

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Old 03-16-21, 09:23 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
If your friend's Volpe was stock, she had to be tough. Her cranks were probably a 52/42/30 and the rear cluster was a 13-26. The 2007 was better with a 48/36/26 and an11-32 cluster, but after our XC trip, I still did some serious changes.
She was tough, but I think she had something larger than a 26t in back.

And we all survived with rim brakes.
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Old 03-16-21, 11:14 AM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
So what do you think of the horizontal drop outs as displayed in the couple frames above? Deal breaker ? Never been a fan but then I'm often the one where if it can go wrong............
Ive ridden multiple horizontal dropout bikes and it just isnt an issue. My old touring bike had em and my current one has em. One of my road bikes has em(older80s frame with modern 11sp drivetrain and bits). A quality internal cam skewer is all thats needed to never think about the dropouts because the wheel stays where it should be. One of my bikes has little screws as a limit for placing the hub so it aligns perfectly right away. The other current bike has shorter dropouts so I just pull the wheel to the back and its aligned.

I like the look of vertical dropouts better- they are smaller. But in practice, I couldnt care less what is used.
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Old 03-16-21, 12:58 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by robow View Post
So what do you think of the horizontal drop outs as displayed in the couple frames above? Deal breaker ? Never been a fan but then I'm often the one where if it can go wrong............
I have them on my Troll, but I also have those Surly "monkey nuts" that increase teh wheelbase by about a cm, and I just slide the wheel all the way in til they hit the end, so no wiggle room of alignment etc.
My wifes Troll doesnt have these spacer things, but again, the wheel just goes into the droput until the end, so is seated properly.
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Old 03-16-21, 01:49 PM
  #110  
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I think the horizontal dropouts on modern frames is mostly to make the frame work well with an internally geared hub so you can adjust chain tension without needing a separate chain tensioner. but the frame will still work well with derailleurs too.
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Old 03-16-21, 01:55 PM
  #111  
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ya, the Troll was designed with that in mind, IGH, and for easily sticking on Bob trailers too, but work fine with rd.
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Old 03-16-21, 03:52 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Fuji1986 View Post
I have been considering a new touring frame and have looked many times at the Surly LHT, which is pictured to this day with RIM brakes on their website. After checking with the local dealer, though, I've learned that the rim-brake LHT has been cancelled. I've scoured the websites of Surly dealers across the country looking for a closeout frame in my size (58 or 60) but so far no luck.

I agree with Grant Petersen's assessment of disc brakes, but can't afford the rim-brake Rivendells. Wondering if anyone knows of other brands still making affordable touring frames spec'd with cantis that can take fatter tires like the Surly. Thanks.
Check out the SOMA Saga, which is the touring frame that SOMA makes. I think you can still find frames for rim brakes. Cheers
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Old 03-16-21, 03:57 PM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Fuji1986 View Post
I have been considering a new touring frame and have looked many times at the Surly LHT, which is pictured to this day with RIM brakes on their website. After checking with the local dealer, though, I've learned that the rim-brake LHT has been cancelled. I've scoured the websites of Surly dealers across the country looking for a closeout frame in my size (58 or 60) but so far no luck.

I agree with Grant Petersen's assessment of disc brakes, but can't afford the rim-brake Rivendells. Wondering if anyone knows of other brands still making affordable touring frames spec'd with cantis that can take fatter tires like the Surly. Thanks.

l, for one, have converted to disc brakes on my touring rig. I am not going to regurgitate all the pros and cons of disc vs rim brakes here. There is one thing that I found to be very good with disc brakes: you can continue riding with quite a bit of side to side wobbles in the wheels. I once broke 2 spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel ( chain fell o
off large cog into the wheel, but managed to limp 25 miles, still with braking, to bike store to get it repaired. Not sure if I could do that either the old rim brake wheel.

BTW, I use the mechanical disc brakes, which seemed to have less dragging, and 160 mm disc on front, 140 on rear to shave a couple oz off.
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Old 03-17-21, 11:21 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by tang1223 View Post
l, for one, have converted to disc brakes on my touring rig. I am not going to regurgitate all the pros and cons of disc vs rim brakes here. There is one thing that I found to be very good with disc brakes: you can continue riding with quite a bit of side to side wobbles in the wheels. I once broke 2 spokes on the drive side of the rear wheel ( chain fell o
off large cog into the wheel, but managed to limp 25 miles, still with braking, to bike store to get it repaired. Not sure if I could do that either the old rim brake wheel.
.
Sure you could. People have encountered that issue many times in the past eon since the advent of rim brakes. Adjust the brake arms so the pads are farther from the rim, and ride on. If it is really bad, then pop the brakes open like you would if you were removing the wheel. In your case braking power would hardly be affected since it was your rear wheel You still have a front brake which gives the majority of braking power anyway.

I love the anecdotal stories regarding any new thing on a bike/car/motorcycle. "I'm glad I got ABS on my new motorcycle, it saved my a** the other day." As if the millions upon millions of miles put on motorcycles without ABS all resulted in fiery crashes. Had the rider no had ABS, they would have probably, had they been experienced, been just fine.

In your case, (paraphrasing) "I'm glad I had disc brakes when my spokes broke, leaving me with a wobbly wheel. There is no way I would have been able to make it another 25 miles with rim brakes. I would have been stuck, left at the mercy of the wild animals, and roving violent gangs bent on doing stranded bicyclists harm. As it were, my disc brakes saved my life, allowing me to ride 25 miles more to a safe location." When in reality, you would have been able to ride 25 miles with rim brakes too.
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Old 03-17-21, 02:03 PM
  #115  
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This isn't really true though.

I've been changing over my mtb brakes from old school cantis to either V with compressionless housings or disc. The stopping power is very noticeable and I can do stuff now that I couldn't before simply because I can stop when I want. Of course I used to mtb - but not to the same degree.

Not saying the need is as dramatic for touring but one can't argue there is no difference.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 03-17-21 at 02:15 PM.
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Old 03-18-21, 12:36 AM
  #116  
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I'm also fairly certain that before the time of ABS, motorcycle rides ended far more frequently in fiery crashes than they did after ABS. Two wheeled vehicles tolerate loss of front wheel traction pretty badly so even an experienced rider could easily go down in the event of a front wheel slip. Also ABS allows for one to steer while going for maximum braking which is a definite safety improvement.
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Old 03-18-21, 01:37 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I'm also fairly certain that before the time of ABS, motorcycle rides ended far more frequently in fiery crashes than they did after ABS. Two wheeled vehicles tolerate loss of front wheel traction pretty badly so even an experienced rider could easily go down in the event of a front wheel slip. Also ABS allows for one to steer while going for maximum braking which is a definite safety improvement.
When I was a young sprout out on the prairie it was not unheard-of to have a few wobbly pops on a Saturday night and take the one ton grain truck out for some gravel road racing. I could never get the hang of not locking up the brakes before a T and would invariably put er in the ditch. Four times in one night!

It was a long walk back to the farm for the tractor to pull it out.
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Old 03-18-21, 03:30 PM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
When I was a young sprout out on the prairie it was not unheard-of to have a few wobbly pops on a Saturday night and take the one ton grain truck out for some gravel road racing. I could never get the hang of not locking up the brakes before a T and would invariably put er in the ditch. Four times in one night!

It was a long walk back to the farm for the tractor to pull it out.
It is a wonder any of us lived long enough to get gray hair
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Old 03-18-21, 04:15 PM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I'm also fairly certain that before the time of ABS, motorcycle rides ended far more frequently in fiery crashes than they did after ABS. Two wheeled vehicles tolerate loss of front wheel traction pretty badly so even an experienced rider could easily go down in the event of a front wheel slip. Also ABS allows for one to steer while going for maximum braking which is a definite safety improvement.
Do you even ride a motorcycle? Sorry, your post is filled with the most horrific hyperbole related to motorcycle crashes I have ever seen, and absolutely not even close to being grounded in reality. There is an incredible amount of traction on the front when braking. As for experienced riders go, part of being experienced, is knowing how to brake to the threshold of traction. It is something you need to practice. I am not a huge fan of stunt riding, but I appreciate the talent of those who do, and all you need to do is see one do a stoppie in wet conditions to know that what you are saying is absolutely incorrect.

The rear tire is where you lose traction upon braking, since the weight is transferred forward as you brake, causing the rear to get light. That is why you don't stop the rear brake, you use the front, and the rear, but you must properly modulate the rear, or it can lock up. Not difficult if you actually learn to ride.

For me, I have well over 200,000 miles on bikes, I have lost track really, and it is probably nearer 300,000 miles, not including racing. I do not have a bike with ABS, and purposely bought my sport touring bike without it. I have yet to go down in a fiery crash, if I do, I can guarantee it wasn't the brake's fault, or the lack of traction on the front tire. It was me, or some moron running into me.

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Old 03-18-21, 08:00 PM
  #120  
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There's no doubt that electronic aids like ABS , traction control and stability control have saved countless thousands of lives, and I have no problem with that.

it can be said though, that for those of us driving and riding motorcycles pre electronics, we sure as heck developed a good feel for braking , throttle control, and holding and controlling slides.
I still get a kick fighting with something on the edge of traction, and holding a slide is one of life's great pleasures.

re fiery motorcycle crashes. Ya, crashes happen when you don't judge braking properly for the available traction, front or rear, but fiery instances generally don't happen, not in my experience turfing my bike into the weeds (motorbike, usually from my tiny amount of time racing)
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Old 03-19-21, 08:08 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
Do you even ride a motorcycle? Sorry, your post is filled with the most horrific hyperbole related to motorcycle crashes I have ever seen, and absolutely not even close to being grounded in reality. There is an incredible amount of traction on the front when braking. As for experienced riders go, part of being experienced, is knowing how to brake to the threshold of traction. It is something you need to practice. I am not a huge fan of stunt riding, but I appreciate the talent of those who do, and all you need to do is see one do a stoppie in wet conditions to know that what you are saying is absolutely incorrect.

The rear tire is where you lose traction upon braking, since the weight is transferred forward as you brake, causing the rear to get light. That is why you don't stop the rear brake, you use the front, and the rear, but you must properly modulate the rear, or it can lock up. Not difficult if you actually learn to ride.

For me, I have well over 200,000 miles on bikes, I have lost track really, and it is probably nearer 300,000 miles, not including racing. I do not have a bike with ABS, and purposely bought my sport touring bike without it. I have yet to go down in a fiery crash, if I do, I can guarantee it wasn't the brake's fault, or the lack of traction on the front tire. It was me, or some moron running into me.
Sooo, ABS is only used in rear tires?

though looking at statistics ABS has reduced motorcycling fatalities and injuries more than 25 % in Europe. In certain countries nearer to 50 %. So it's probably a pretty useful system.
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Old 03-19-21, 08:32 AM
  #122  
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Egads, I just realized this (ABS braking) will probably become a thing in bicycles pretty soon. Some may naysay and suggest there is no need but I will point to electronic shifting...


2025 thread topic: 205mm, dual rotor, hydraulic, ABS front brakes: Are they too old school for touring?
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Old 03-19-21, 09:18 AM
  #123  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Egads, I just realized this (ABS braking) will probably become a thing in bicycles pretty soon. Some may naysay and suggest there is no need but I will point to electronic shifting...


2025 thread topic: 205mm, dual rotor, hydraulic, ABS front brakes: Are they too old school for touring?
chuckle
yup, stuff does change. I certainly see that with the advances in battery technology, very light solid state battery systems will mean a lot more common use of electric motors in bikes. But lets face it, using ones own physical effort is always going to be a part of a life style and behaviour that helps keep our old bods in shape as the decades move along. Think of the fat, lazy, blobby humans in that cute Disney movie, E-whatsit or whatever it was.

re ABS and dual rotor. I'll never forget being out on track in a practice session in the rain, first time on track with a dual rotor light bike. Probably had too much front tire pressure to boot---but bingo, lock up the front, go down, and am sliding down the track on my back hearing my Yammy scraping along ahead of me, and all I could think of was, "G.....ammmit, I'm ruining my rain suit!!" (that I put on so my leathers wouldnt be soaked for later)

its no surprise to me that modern motorcycle electronics et al have greatly reduced messups by riders and all the consequent injuries.
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Old 03-19-21, 10:55 AM
  #124  
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ABS for rim brakes has already been invented. Actually now that I think of it I think I saw a system for bicycle discs as well but it's a big piece of kit still.
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Old 03-19-21, 01:48 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Sooo, ABS is only used in rear tires?
What do you even mean by that? Nothing I wrote even remotely implies that, nor did anything I wrote imply that ABS is only necessary for the rear, or desirable.

Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
though looking at statistics ABS has reduced motorcycling fatalities and injuries more than 25 % in Europe. In certain countries nearer to 50 %. So it's probably a pretty useful system.
Your use of hyperbole, i.e., fiery crashes, is exceeded only by your lack of reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say ABS was not a good thing, or not useful. I took issue with your hyperbole, as I do in any discussion related to new technology vs old technology. Hyperbole such as yours, has no useful place in a realistic comparison and discussion.

As for the studies, I have read them, I am extremely active in motorcycling, and as such have to keep up with the current trends and technology. The studies do not take into account the behaviors of the groups who buy ABS, or more accurately, what factors make them decide against ABS when they purchase a bike. The studies also fail to take into account the advances in tire technology as it relates to wet surface traction. Here is a quote from one study that came to the same basic conclusion as the one you cited, "However, this study is not free of limitations. ABS was studied as optional equipment, so the cohort of motorcyclists who choose ABS may differ in some substantive way from those who decline to purchase it. In particular, motorcyclists who choose ABS may be more concerned about safety than those who decline, thus leading to lower fatal crash rates through other safer riding practices."

And another, more damning, "Drivers of non-ABS motorcycles were slightly more likely to have been cited for speeding or to have blood alcohol concentrations of 0.08 g/dL or higher. The non-ABS fatal crash involvements also were slightly more likely to occur in states with helmet laws, both universal and partial, and to involve only the motorcycle."

The studies also do not take into account the safety gear worn, which have gotten markedly better over the years. They padding on jackets are better, helping to prevent many blunt force injuries.

I ride all year, in Pennsylvania. This year I rode a bike with a sidecar though, but usually it is my Kawasaki Concours. Years ago, I rode a 1986 Goldwing, no ABS back then, from Pittsburgh to Nashville overnight. It snowed on me as I was going across Ohio. I still was able to ride on the interstate, and was out before they began to treat the road, since it began while I was riding. I was able to ride, turn, and brake without dying in a fiery crash. I took that same Goldwing out one day in an ice storm. Why? Because I'm an idiot, and wanted to see how it would handle the ice. I rode the road behind the houses in my plan, about 1/8 of a mile, with curves, 100 percent ice covered, and untreated. I got to the end of that road, where it met up with the main road. To get back home, I was going to have to turn left up a hill. I opted to turn right, downhill, go to the stop sign where it was relatively flat, stop, turn around and go back uphill, around a bend, then around another bend, then turn 90 degrees left, downhill, then at the bottom of the hill, braking involved, turn 90 degrees right, and back to my garage. IN all that, on solid, untreated ice, complete with braking, no ABS, no one died in a fiery crash. No one even crashed, fell down, fell over, failed to stop, had to yell frantically, "Get out of my way, I can't stop!"

I took issue with your ridiculous statement regarding fiery crashes. It has zero basis in reality, and is the type of argument I get very tired of here, and everywhere discussions take place. In fact, hyperbole like yours is how we end up with seriously misinformed people. So please, stop. ABS is a fantastic technology, but it does have limitations. The one thing I really dislike about it, is the fact those who learn to drive with it, never learn to control braking without it. When it fails, and I do not mean a massive mechanical failure where the ABS is defective, or no longer works, I mean on solid ice, and the wheels lock up, the driver doesn't not know what to do, and they remain on the brakes, leaving them with no control. Yes, ABS will lock up on solid ice, on a good hill. In order to work, ABS needs to read different wheel rotational speeds, on ice, there comes a point where that may not happen, allowing the wheels to lock up. That leaves you with no control. If you learned to drive with no ABS, you would understand how to deal with that situation, namely getting off the brake, and pumping the brake as you do without ABS. That will allow you to steer, and control the car.

So please, stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. Stick with reality, and facts, not statements like, fiery crashes. Injecting hyperbole into an argument is there only for inciting an emotional response. Emotions are not a good barometer of reality, and a very bad way to make an informed decision.

As for ABS, it is a good technology, and it is getting better all the time, namely, as far as motorcycles are concerned, cornering aware ABS. Disc brakes are very nice as well on bicycles, but rim brakes will stop you as well, and you will not die in a fiery crash.

Last edited by phughes; 03-19-21 at 01:53 PM.
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