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Rim brake touring bikes extinct?

Old 03-19-21, 06:54 PM
  #126  
350htrr
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
This isn't really true though.

I've been changing over my mtb brakes from old school cantis to either V with compressionless housings or disc. The stopping power is very noticeable and I can do stuff now that I couldn't before simply because I can stop when I want. Of course I used to mtb - but not to the same degree.

Not saying the need is as dramatic for touring but one can't argue there is no difference.
Really... I have seen it argued all the time on this forum...
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Old 03-20-21, 01:35 AM
  #127  
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I would like to direct your attention to the two quoted messages directly below and moreover the bolded parts. In the first quote written by you we observe the first use of the phrase "fiery crashes" in conjunction with the ABS system also establishing a chronological context between before ABS and after ABS

In the second quote (by me) we again see the phrase "fiery crashes" and again it is framed with a chronological context of before ABS and after ABS. By using the same phrasing and referring to the same context as a previous message in the reply is what I believe is called a rhetorical device. Using such device anchors the reply to the original message negating the use of quotation tools.

I would also like to point out that I only used the phrase "fiery crashes" once.

Originally Posted by phughes View Post
Sure you could. People have encountered that issue many times in the past eon since the advent of rim brakes. Adjust the brake arms so the pads are farther from the rim, and ride on. If it is really bad, then pop the brakes open like you would if you were removing the wheel. In your case braking power would hardly be affected since it was your rear wheel You still have a front brake which gives the majority of braking power anyway.

I love the anecdotal stories regarding any new thing on a bike/car/motorcycle. "I'm glad I got ABS on my new motorcycle, it saved my a** the other day." As if the millions upon millions of miles put on motorcycles without ABS all resulted in fiery crashes. Had the rider no had ABS, they would have probably, had they been experienced, been just fine.

In your case, (paraphrasing) "I'm glad I had disc brakes when my spokes broke, leaving me with a wobbly wheel. There is no way I would have been able to make it another 25 miles with rim brakes. I would have been stuck, left at the mercy of the wild animals, and roving violent gangs bent on doing stranded bicyclists harm. As it were, my disc brakes saved my life, allowing me to ride 25 miles more to a safe location." When in reality, you would have been able to ride 25 miles with rim brakes too.
Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I'm also fairly certain that before the time of ABS, motorcycle rides ended far more frequently in fiery crashes than they did after ABS. Two wheeled vehicles tolerate loss of front wheel traction pretty badly so even an experienced rider could easily go down in the event of a front wheel slip. Also ABS allows for one to steer while going for maximum braking which is a definite safety improvement.
Originally Posted by phughes View Post
What do you even mean by that? Nothing I wrote even remotely implies that, nor did anything I wrote imply that ABS is only necessary for the rear, or desirable.



Your use of hyperbole, i.e., fiery crashes, is exceeded only by your lack of reading comprehension. Nowhere did I say ABS was not a good thing, or not useful. I took issue with your hyperbole, as I do in any discussion related to new technology vs old technology. Hyperbole such as yours, has no useful place in a realistic comparison and discussion.

As for the studies, I have read them, I am extremely active in motorcycling, and as such have to keep up with the current trends and technology. The studies do not take into account the behaviors of the groups who buy ABS, or more accurately, what factors make them decide against ABS when they purchase a bike. The studies also fail to take into account the advances in tire technology as it relates to wet surface traction. Here is a quote from one study that came to the same basic conclusion as the one you cited, "However, this study is not free of limitations. ABS was studied as optional equipment, so the cohort of motorcyclists who choose ABS may differ in some substantive way from those who decline to purchase it. In particular, motorcyclists who choose ABS may be more concerned about safety than those who decline, thus leading to lower fatal crash rates through other safer riding practices."

And another, more damning, "Drivers of non-ABS motorcycles were slightly more likely to have been cited for speeding or to have blood alcohol concentrations of 0.08 g/dL or higher. The non-ABS fatal crash involvements also were slightly more likely to occur in states with helmet laws, both universal and partial, and to involve only the motorcycle."

The studies also do not take into account the safety gear worn, which have gotten markedly better over the years. They padding on jackets are better, helping to prevent many blunt force injuries.

I ride all year, in Pennsylvania. This year I rode a bike with a sidecar though, but usually it is my Kawasaki Concours. Years ago, I rode a 1986 Goldwing, no ABS back then, from Pittsburgh to Nashville overnight. It snowed on me as I was going across Ohio. I still was able to ride on the interstate, and was out before they began to treat the road, since it began while I was riding. I was able to ride, turn, and brake without dying in a fiery crash. I took that same Goldwing out one day in an ice storm. Why? Because I'm an idiot, and wanted to see how it would handle the ice. I rode the road behind the houses in my plan, about 1/8 of a mile, with curves, 100 percent ice covered, and untreated. I got to the end of that road, where it met up with the main road. To get back home, I was going to have to turn left up a hill. I opted to turn right, downhill, go to the stop sign where it was relatively flat, stop, turn around and go back uphill, around a bend, then around another bend, then turn 90 degrees left, downhill, then at the bottom of the hill, braking involved, turn 90 degrees right, and back to my garage. IN all that, on solid, untreated ice, complete with braking, no ABS, no one died in a fiery crash. No one even crashed, fell down, fell over, failed to stop, had to yell frantically, "Get out of my way, I can't stop!"

I took issue with your ridiculous statement regarding fiery crashes. It has zero basis in reality, and is the type of argument I get very tired of here, and everywhere discussions take place. In fact, hyperbole like yours is how we end up with seriously misinformed people. So please, stop. ABS is a fantastic technology, but it does have limitations. The one thing I really dislike about it, is the fact those who learn to drive with it, never learn to control braking without it. When it fails, and I do not mean a massive mechanical failure where the ABS is defective, or no longer works, I mean on solid ice, and the wheels lock up, the driver doesn't not know what to do, and they remain on the brakes, leaving them with no control. Yes, ABS will lock up on solid ice, on a good hill. In order to work, ABS needs to read different wheel rotational speeds, on ice, there comes a point where that may not happen, allowing the wheels to lock up. That leaves you with no control. If you learned to drive with no ABS, you would understand how to deal with that situation, namely getting off the brake, and pumping the brake as you do without ABS. That will allow you to steer, and control the car.

So please, stop with the ridiculous hyperbole. Stick with reality, and facts, not statements like, fiery crashes. Injecting hyperbole into an argument is there only for inciting an emotional response. Emotions are not a good barometer of reality, and a very bad way to make an informed decision.

As for ABS, it is a good technology, and it is getting better all the time, namely, as far as motorcycles are concerned, cornering aware ABS. Disc brakes are very nice as well on bicycles, but rim brakes will stop you as well, and you will not die in a fiery crash.
Given that I've written two pretty short messages on this thread and the explanation above, this rant of yours is all the more confusing.

I'd also go as far as to state that I am not the one whose reading comprehension is lacking.

One more point. I did not cite a study.
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Old 03-20-21, 07:05 AM
  #128  
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Hey crux, how many years riding experience do you have riding motorcycles and if so, what decade did you start?
serious question.
thanks
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Old 03-20-21, 12:10 PM
  #129  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
I would like to direct your attention to the two quoted messages directly below and moreover the bolded parts. In the first quote written by you we observe the first use of the phrase "fiery crashes" in conjunction with the ABS system also establishing a chronological context between before ABS and after ABS

In the second quote (by me) we again see the phrase "fiery crashes" and again it is framed with a chronological context of before ABS and after ABS. By using the same phrasing and referring to the same context as a previous message in the reply is what I believe is called a rhetorical device. Using such de <SNIP>

One more point. I did not cite a study.
You are so right, you did not cite a source for the numbers you stated, used to support your fiery crash statement. Thanks for proving my point.

How many times do you have to use the term, fiery crash, for it to be hyperbole? Answer: Once.

You went from, OP: "I want to buy a bike with rim brakes... To: RIm brakes are bad... To: Motorcyclists used to have their ride end in fiery crashes before the advent of ABS.

In other words, ridiculous hyperbole. There are so many very legitimate reasons to choose disc brakes over rim brakes. You do not need to make things up, or use hyperbole to evoke an emotional response in order to justify the use of disc brakes on bicycles, especially when that hyperbolic example has absolutely no substantive link to what is being debated. At the same time, rim brakes work perfectly fine on a bicycle. I'm just calling out the hyperbole. It is a useless tool used by people to justify something they are attached to, rather than using actual facts, or admitting their attachment comes from person preference, which is a perfectly acceptable reason for choosing something.
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Old 03-20-21, 02:42 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
You are so right, you did not cite a source for the numbers you stated, used to support your fiery crash statement. Thanks for proving my point.

How many times do you have to use the term, fiery crash, for it to be hyperbole? Answer: Once.

You went from, OP: "I want to buy a bike with rim brakes... To: RIm brakes are bad... To: Motorcyclists used to have their ride end in fiery crashes before the advent of ABS.

In other words, ridiculous hyperbole. There are so many very legitimate reasons to choose disc brakes over rim brakes. You do not need to make things up, or use hyperbole to evoke an emotional response in order to justify the use of disc brakes on bicycles, especially when that hyperbolic example has absolutely no substantive link to what is being debated. At the same time, rim brakes work perfectly fine on a bicycle. I'm just calling out the hyperbole. It is a useless tool used by people to justify something they are attached to, rather than using actual facts, or admitting their attachment comes from person preference, which is a perfectly acceptable reason for choosing something.
Apparently I need to spell this out for you.

YOU first used the phrase "fiery crash" in the context of ABS brakes. I then in my post used the phrase "fiery crash" to respond to your post. You see how using the same phrase links the two posts? So I could keep my post general but also respond to your post? See how that's a nifty technique in a written discussion?
So if you need to blame someone of hyperbole it's you.

If we consider the timeline and my involvement in this thread it went more like this:
You: "as if lots of miles on bikes without ABS all resulted in fiery crashes" -> Me: "pretty sure there were more fiery crashes before ABS than after" -> You: "rant galore"
I checked and I haven't taken a stance on this thread regarding rim brakes.

Then there's this end rant about disc brakes. When did we discuss disc brakes? Where?

As for the citing, the numbers did come from a study. I just didn't cite it. Which makes your statement about a study coming to the same conclusion as the one I cited all the more confusing. How could you have known where I got the numbers from? Did you guess or...?
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Old 03-20-21, 04:40 PM
  #131  
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oops, I had actually not properly noticed the details of who wrote fiery first, so I'll just stay out of this.

on a side note, I have melted rim brake pads sufficiently enough to get little balls of rubber building up on them a bit. At this same incident my braking was getting pretty sketchy and I clearly remember being thankful that I could slow down and pull over safely, with sore hands from clenching.
To top it off, I think it was this time that I stupidly wondered how hot the rims were and touched one, burnt my finger a bit.

looking back now, I realize that I was dragging the brakes too much.
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Old 03-20-21, 07:28 PM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by elcruxio View Post
Apparently I need to spell this out for you.

YOU first used the phrase "fiery crash" in the context of ABS brakes. I then in my post used the phrase "fiery crash" to respond to your post. You see how using the same phrase links the two posts? So I could keep my post general but also respond to your post? See how that's a nifty technique in a written discussion?
So if you need to blame someone of hyperbole it's you.

If we consider the timeline and my involvement in this thread it went more like this:
You: "as if lots of miles on bikes without ABS all resulted in fiery crashes" -> Me: "pretty sure there were more fiery crashes before ABS than after" -> You: "rant galore"
I checked and I haven't taken a stance on this thread regarding rim brakes.

Then there's this end rant about disc brakes. When did we discuss disc brakes? Where?

As for the citing, the numbers did come from a study. I just didn't cite it. Which makes your statement about a study coming to the same conclusion as the one I cited all the more confusing. How could you have known where I got the numbers from? Did you guess or...?
I know you didn't make up the numbers. They are accurate. I am very familiar with the studies and statistics, because I am very actively involved int he industry, and keep up with the studies, so I recognized your numbers. They were from one of many studies. I said people didn't die in fiery crashes before ABS, you said more rides ended in fiery crashes before ABS, that is ridiculous, and the very hyperbole I was saying is wrong with these type of discussions. . The point it, it is hyperbole. Which is what my first post regarding this was about.

ABS is great, so are disc brakes. But let's stick to fact and not hyperbole.
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Old 03-20-21, 08:33 PM
  #133  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
This isn't really true though.

I've been changing over my mtb brakes from old school cantis to either V with compressionless housings or disc. The stopping power is very noticeable and I can do stuff now that I couldn't before simply because I can stop when I want. Of course I used to mtb - but not to the same degree.

Not saying the need is as dramatic for touring but one can't argue there is no difference.
Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Really... I have seen it argued all the time on this forum...
Well.. not to start another semantic debate but perhaps you've fallen prey to the ol' double negative?

Saying you can't argue there's no difference is the same as saying you can argue there is a difference. The preceding sentences of my post clearly suggest that. You seem to agree but scratch your head irregardless. However, to be fair, it is a wonder when anyone actually agrees on the forum so perhaps the mystery lies in our unanticipated synchronicity.

Btw, using irregardless in a sentence is how I troll the literary forums so don't fall into that trap!
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Old 03-20-21, 10:51 PM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Not saying the need is as dramatic for touring but one can't argue there is no difference.

Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
Really... I have seen it argued all the time on this forum...

methinks there are a few who argue that with properly set up and adjusted rim brakes with quality pads, there is no appreciable effective difference in stopping power.
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Old 03-20-21, 11:02 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
methinks there are a few who argue that with properly set up and adjusted rim brakes with quality pads, there is no appreciable effective difference in stopping power.
I had not considered that tangent.

From my experience that isn't the case. But I would be willing to argue that for my touring needs rim brakes do well enough so that disc's don't add a "necessary" difference.

I would not decline a bike for touring based upon it's brakes, except for my first bike that had stamped calipers that really didn't work. Other than that most brakes work well enough for touring.. for me.
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Old 03-21-21, 10:29 AM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
methinks there are a few who argue that with properly set up and adjusted rim brakes with quality pads, there is no appreciable effective difference in stopping power.
I agree with that. My wife has V-brakes, and it stops as well as any disc brake setup I have ridden. My bike has cantis, it does not stop as well as any disc brake bike I have ridden, it does stop well though, and they are not great cantis though, and one day I may replace them.
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Old 03-21-21, 08:15 PM
  #137  
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I don't think the benefit is so much the ultimate stopping power of disc (locking up is locking up) but rather the ease of modulation and lack of hand fatigue on long downhills. I suffer quite a bit in the winter on long logging road descents (braking for 7km or more) in the winter as I have poor circulation in my hands. It's a lot less squeezing with the discs.

As I said, I've been looking into disc braking this winter for my mtb but also have disc on my endurance/touring road bike. It's interesting how "expandable" a basic disc set up is.
For example. if you buy a basic 160mm rotor mechanical disc brake bike you can upgrade to 180mm rotors with a simple adapter. After that you can also swap the mechanical for hydraulic using the same mounts.

Not saying all bikes necessarily need that much braking power but its interesting to note how you can get into disc at the ground floor and upgrade quite a bit over time with the same platform.
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Old 03-21-21, 11:18 PM
  #138  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
I don't think the benefit is so much the ultimate stopping power of disc (locking up is locking up) but rather the ease of modulation and lack of hand fatigue on long downhills.....
this i have not noticed, but i have XXXXXXL hands.
i have 20yo deore v-brakes with tektro levers, same levers i use with BB7 disc brakes.
usually fine with one- or two-finger braking, IRregardless of brake system.
added a short piece of padding from a bmx motobike brake grip set, both setups comfortable.

if i start to get hand fatigue on those long, 20km+ descents.....it would happen with
whichever brake setup........i stop at a convenient spot for a break.
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Old 03-22-21, 12:09 AM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
this i have not noticed, but i have XXXXXXL hands.
i have 20yo deore v-brakes with tektro levers, same levers i use with BB7 disc brakes.
usually fine with one- or two-finger braking, IRregardless of brake system.
added a short piece of padding from a bmx motobike brake grip set, both setups comfortable.

if i start to get hand fatigue on those long, 20km+ descents.....it would happen with
whichever brake setup........i stop at a convenient spot for a break.
For me it's just in the winter. I feel the combo of squeezing and cold. With disc it's just less squeezing.
I have something called thoracic outlet syndrome, sort of like carpal tunnel but with bloodflow from a narrowing of the brachial plexus in the armpit area.
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Old 03-22-21, 05:42 AM
  #140  
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Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
For me it's just in the winter. I feel the combo of squeezing and cold. With disc it's just less squeezing.
I have something called thoracic outlet syndrome, sort of like carpal tunnel but with bloodflow from a narrowing of the brachial plexus in the armpit area.
moved to southwest texas in 2000, then to southwest china in 2005, then to thailand......for a reason.
......winter is when the temp drops below 70 degrees fahrenheit for a few days.
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Old 03-22-21, 11:38 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores View Post
moved to southwest texas in 2000, then to southwest china in 2005, then to thailand......for a reason.
......winter is when the temp drops below 70 degrees fahrenheit for a few days.
My wife did the opposite. She moved here, from Thailand when we got married in 2012. One day we were outside and it was about 88F. She was complaining she was hot. I asked, "Where did you grow up?" It is amazing how the human body acclimates to a climate.
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