Touring Bikes with Cantilever Brakes
So, I'm looking to buy a touring bike with a number of different features. Steel frame, mounts to handle front and rear racks, drop bars with bar end shifters, good clearance for tires. So far so good, there are lots of options with all of that. However, where I'm struggling is finding brands designed for cantilever brakes. It seems like they've all gone to discs, and if they had rim brake models those have been discontinued.
Surly Disc Trucker (RIP LHT...) Masi Giramondo Kona Sutra Trek 520 Salsa Marrakesh Fuji Touring all seem like lovely bikes, but they're all intended to work with disc brakes. So, is anyone able to recommend some brands I might have missed that still design for canti? Failing that, could you recommend any older models that would be easy to find secondhand? Thanks for the help. |
Lots of vintage bikes out there with cantilever brakes. Here are some to look for
Trek 520 and 720 Schwinn Voyageur Miyata 1000 Specialized Sequoia Centurion Pro Tour Raleigh Portage Bridgestone RT-1 Fuji Saratoga Panasonic PT-5000 |
Is there a reason why you don't want discs? Just curious.
There is a reason you don't find new touring bike with cantis. Having lived with both cantis and discs I find discs superior in just about all ways. I have found the braking power and feel better and the maintenance less frequent. Also I have worn out quite a few rims with rim brakes over the years, This doesn't happen with disc brakes. As was mentioned there are plenty of slightly older models to choose from if that is your preference. |
Here is a link to a long running vintage touring bike thread. https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...ing-bikes.html
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First, I wouldn't worry too much about the braking system. They'll both work.
But if you insist, more Long Haul Truckers and 520s have been sold than perhaps all the others added together. Logically, there will be more of those models on the secondhand market. I suspect the REI Novara Randonee/ADV 3.1 is next in volume. The good news is that you can look for any or all of those in your size on craigslist, etc., for six months before next year's touring bike models are likely to get to the stores. So look for rim brakes in that period, buy one if you find it; if not, go buy what's available new. Happy riding! |
Originally Posted by pdlamb
(Post 22678609)
But if you insist, more Long Haul Truckers and 520s have been sold than perhaps all the others added together. Logically, there will be more of those models on the secondhand market.
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You might consider a Surly Crosscheck. Not technically a touring bike, but...
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Gunnar/Waterford
Rodriguez Curtlo TrueNorth Rivendell |
Another good one is the Soma Saga. I have a pre-disc Saga with Paul touring cantilevers, and like it a lot. 😎
I can understand the enthusiasm for disc brakes, but I'm not in a big hurry to get them. 😉 |
Surly Pack Rat can be used as a touring bike.
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Keep your eyes out for used. Once the manufacturers in unison shift to something else, it is very unlikely that they will go in reverse. I think you will also find that though axle will be the only choice except for a few that have a Rohloff rear hub instead.
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Thanks very much for the advice and suggestions everyone! I'm still looking through all the examples but already seeing some interesting options that I missed before. It seems like the clear consensus is that I should forget about the big manufacturers and focus on getting something secondhand, so I'll do that. In the past I've had trouble finding a used bike because I'm very tall, and my size rare. However, having some specific models to look for will definitely help the search.
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
(Post 22678605)
Is there a reason why you don't want discs? Just curious.
There is a reason you don't find new touring bike with cantis. Having lived with both cantis and discs I find discs superior in just about all ways. I have found the braking power and feel better and the maintenance less frequent. Also I have worn out quite a few rims with rim brakes over the years, This doesn't happen with disc brakes. As was mentioned there are plenty of slightly older models to choose from if that is your preference. |
unlimited budget? frame builder for a custom frame.
otherwise look on ebay for complete 2nd-hand touring bikes. or buy a frame a build up the way you want. https://www.ebay.com/itm/334568700934 |
Originally Posted by elmo449
(Post 22679162)
There are just a few minor annoyances with discs that add up and leave me wanting to try the other options. The main one is noise. I've had 3 disc brake bikes, and I could not get any of them to be quiet consistently. I've tried cleaning and replacing pads and rotors, and had bike shops look at them. On a tour I don't bother to carry cleaning supplies, so I end up just putting up with it. Also, the disc is an extra step if I need to replace a broken spoke or pack the bike. I get that disc gives better braking, but I don't think the difference is that large, and I'm not riding aggressively on a loaded touring bike anyway. I've also been reading good things about wheels like the Ryde Andra, designed for heavily loaded rim braking, and I'm honestly curious to try them (and other rim related products) and see if the reputation is deserved, or just good marketing. I'm not really worried about wearing out rims, but maybe that's a lesson I need to learn the hard way :)
I would also suggest you look at one other line of bikes: Cannondale touring bikes. I’ve owned steel touring bikes and Cannondales. The Cannondales are far better touring bikes than any steel bike I’ve owned or tested. The “stiff” ride becomes much less so when the bike is loaded and the bike handles better because it is stiffer. I’ve never been able to climb out of saddle on a steel bike because the bike flexes too much. That’s not a problem on a Cannondale. Yes, yes, I “know” just like everyone says (incorrectly) that steel can be welded by the village smithy while you are entertained by his lovely daughter under the shade of a spreading chestnut tree but that is simply not true. Aluminum can be welded as a temporary repair by anyone with MIG welder just as steel can be. Any weld to fix a bicycle should be considered to be temporary no matter which metal is used. A frame repair is usually due to a crack in the material. If the aluminum or steel cracks, there is an underlying problem that needs to be addressed. Simply welding over the break isn’t a long term solution. And, just to be clear, I’ve broken two steel frames and two aluminum frames. Both aluminum frames had more mileage on them before they broke than the steel frames did. One of those steel frames broke multiple times…the steer tube broke at the crown, the chainstay cracked at the bridge, the rear dropout broke, and the chainstays cracked again above the welded repair. |
Originally Posted by elmo449
(Post 22679137)
Thanks very much for the advice and suggestions everyone! I'm still looking through all the examples but already seeing some interesting options that I missed before. It seems like the clear consensus is that I should forget about the big manufacturers and focus on getting something secondhand, so I'll do that. In the past I've had trouble finding a used bike because I'm very tall, and my size rare. However, having some specific models to look for will definitely help the search.
If you need a frame taller than 25"/64cm then probably older Cannondale (T700, T1000) and Raleigh (Alyeska and some others) touring models might have something to fit you. Good luck! |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 22679324)
Frankly, I wouldn’t agree that disc brakes give superior braking. In my experience disc brakes give about the same braking as rim brakes. There’s really no noticeable difference. I even have bikes with disc front and rim rear where there is no difference in function or brake feel. I’ve never been in any situation where I thought the brakes wouldn’t stop me…even in high speed mountain descents in rain storms.
I would also suggest you look at one other line of bikes: Cannondale touring bikes. I’ve owned steel touring bikes and Cannondales. The Cannondales are far better touring bikes than any steel bike I’ve owned or tested. The “stiff” ride becomes much less so when the bike is loaded and the bike handles better because it is stiffer. I’ve never been able to climb out of saddle on a steel bike because the bike flexes too much. That’s not a problem on a Cannondale. Yes, yes, I “know” just like everyone says (incorrectly) that steel can be welded by the village smithy while you are entertained by his lovely daughter under the shade of a spreading chestnut tree but that is simply not true. Aluminum can be welded as a temporary repair by anyone with MIG welder just as steel can be. Any weld to fix a bicycle should be considered to be temporary no matter which metal is used. A frame repair is usually due to a crack in the material. If the aluminum or steel cracks, there is an underlying problem that needs to be addressed. Simply welding over the break isn’t a long term solution. And, just to be clear, I’ve broken two steel frames and two aluminum frames. Both aluminum frames had more mileage on them before they broke than the steel frames did. One of those steel frames broke multiple times…the steer tube broke at the crown, the chainstay cracked at the bridge, the rear dropout broke, and the chainstays cracked again above the welded repair. Like your village smithy story gets more intriguing and gets added embellishments with every retelling, I too gain more and more experience from disc brakes with every new bike and set of brakes I buy. I wonder if in ten years time the village has gained a mariachi band and a cowboy gunfight one can indulge in whilst waiting their bike frame being forge welded with damascus steel. Time will only tell. Anyhoo, it's possible (though unlikely) to get a permanent fix for a steel frame on the road. However that's not the case for aluminum as you'd need to heat treat the whole frame. But that's beside the point. As for Disc brakes having more braking power, I'm sure we're discussing accuracy of braking and not in fact absolute braking power which we all know can be achieved with any brake on the market as well as with a long stick. In terms of accuracy or modulation or whatever you want to call it, in my experience mechanical disc brakes with 160mm rotors are on par with very good rim brakes, eg. ultegra dual pivots. With 203mm rotors the mechanical disc brakes of course take the lead. Cantilevers don't come close to the best rim brakes and are in fact probably the least accurate rim brake out there. With hydraulics you get brakes which are bad (SRAM in general), brakes which are very good indeed and far better than any rim brake on the planet (magura MT models for example) and then there are brakes where the performance and accuracy is nothing short of otherworldly (Shimano GRX). I'm rarely blown away by anything bike related because, well, it's just bikes. But the GRX brakes are just ridiculously good. So good in fact that I've almost crashed multiple times because of them. They're so confidence inspiring and recoverable from skids that I've frequently ridden faster than my skills / reaction times allow for only to be saved by the brakes in question. I mean One finger panic brake to a full stop rear lift from the hoods type of power but still accurate enough to feather on loose sand, wet leaves, gravel on asphalt with no issues whatsoever. I kinda want them on my mountain bike. Makes me angry when I'm forced to use mechanical fisc brakes on my disc trucker. If GRX came with a tripke I'd swap in a heartbeat. |
Originally Posted by elmo449
(Post 22679162)
... I've also been reading good things about wheels like the Ryde Andra, designed for heavily loaded rim braking, and I'm honestly curious to try them (and other rim related products) and see if the reputation is deserved, or just good marketing. I'm not really worried about wearing out rims, but maybe that's a lesson I need to learn the hard way :)
Now the bad news. Ryde stopped making the CSS version of the rims several years ago. I learned that when I wanted to buy another pair of rims with CSS braking surface. There was not much demand for them with everybody switching to disc brakes, so they stopped making them. Any remaining CSS rims are extremely hard to find. There are plenty of other very strong rims that in my opinion are as good as an Andra non-CSS rim to choose from. I used Velocity Dyad rims on my light touring bike that I built up five years ago. That is a good 700c rim for touring. Velocity has a good chart for which rims are best based on your desired tire width. https://www.velocityusa.com/tech/rims/ But, if you are going to buy rims, you should first decide if you want to run tubeless tires or not so you get the type of rim you want for your tires. |
Originally Posted by elmo449
(Post 22679137)
... In the past I've had trouble finding a used bike because I'm very tall, and my size rare. However, having some specific models to look for will definitely help the search.
https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?...%20mk3&geoc=US They have a few discontinued Nomad Mk II models in larger sizes that have not been sold yet. They can be fitted with V brakes but the Mk II is a Rohloff only bike with 26 inch wheels, I suspect you are not interested in that. The front brake can be a V brake but not a canti brake due to the way they built it. https://www.sjscycles.co.uk/search/?...%20mk2&geoc=US The Nomads are heavy bikes, but if you are a large person, they are quite stiff and can carry a load without feeling like a wet noodle. I have loaded up a LOT of stuff on my Nomad Mk II and it handled a load quite well. I assume you are in USA. If you order a frame or bike from them, you might have to pay customs duty when it arrives in USA. If an expensive bike is not a problem for you, you could contact Co-Motion or some of the other custom builders in USA. A gal I used to work with really loved her Rodriguez. |
Your choice is and should ultimately what makes you happy. I can see the noise issue more so than anything else being a good reason to avoid discs since you find it to be an issue for you.
Originally Posted by elmo449
(Post 22679162)
There are just a few minor annoyances with discs that add up and leave me wanting to try the other options. The main one is noise. I've had 3 disc brake bikes, and I could not get any of them to be quiet consistently. I've tried cleaning and replacing pads and rotors, and had bike shops look at them. On a tour I don't bother to carry cleaning supplies, so I end up just putting up with it.
Also, the disc is an extra step if I need to replace a broken spoke or pack the bike. I get that disc gives better braking, but I don't think the difference is that large, and I'm not riding aggressively on a loaded touring bike anyway. I've also been reading good things about wheels like the Ryde Andra, designed for heavily loaded rim braking, and I'm honestly curious to try them (and other rim related products) and see if the reputation is deserved, or just good marketing. I'm not really worried about wearing out rims, but maybe that's a lesson I need to learn the hard way :) Any way, there is no reason not to buy what you prefer. I just figured that I sound off on my experiences in case they might be useful to you (or more likely someone else considering the same choice). You may be best off tring to find a nice lightly used bike of the model you like, buy custom, or buy something that isn't a pure touring bike. Personally I really don't like pure touring bikes so something less truck like would be on my list. Even when I packed pretty heavy I didn't care for them and not that I pack MUCH lighter I am more inclined away from them than ever. If shopping today I'd buy a gravel bike myself. It sounds like you are more interested in a pure touring bike though. Just maybe something like a crosscheck might suit you though. |
mr tall guy, ya finding a large used frame is always going to be harder, just as finding xs stuff, so you are up against that from the get go.
bottom line, set up alerts for extra large or whatever size frame details you need, but be realistic that its hit and miss already for used touring bikes, exponentially less so with the extreme sizes. add surly troll and ogre to your list, but you would have to do all the conversions to dropbar and all that stuff, so added expense and perhaps not your thing doing stuff on your own to safe money. |
Originally Posted by djb
(Post 22679910)
mr tall guy, ya finding a large used frame is always going to be harder, just as finding xs stuff, so you are up against that from the get go.
bottom line, set up alerts for extra large or whatever size frame details you need, but be realistic that its hit and miss already for used touring bikes, exponentially less so with the extreme sizes. I remember when my daughter was young I used to buy specialiized sport stuff really cheap because the end of a season or model year they always had a surplus of XXS or XS. We used to be able to get her Mountain Surf kayaking stuff for crazy cheap at the end of the season at their home store. I got her bike clothes and hiking stuff at pretty good prices as well. |
Well, there is this - https://www.bikesdirect.com/products...ng-bikes-v.htm It has cantis. I may need to get out the popcorn at the mention of this company, but the bikes are just fine..
@staehpj1 - how do you wear out a rim using rim brakes? Haven't heard of that before, but it is entirely possible i guess. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 22679787)
Like your village smithy story gets more intriguing and gets added embellishments with every retelling, I too gain more and more experience from disc brakes with every new bike and set of brakes I buy.
Anyhoo, it's possible (though unlikely) to get a permanent fix for a steel frame on the road. However that's not the case for aluminum as you'd need to heat treat the whole frame. But that's beside the point. As to a “permanent repair” on steel, if the steel has cracked for some reason, simple welding it is not addressing the reason for the crack. There is some underlying flaw in the metal and the weld will likely break in the future…just like an aluminum weld might break. Or might not. In either case, the repair should be considered temporary. A steel tube might be replaced but that would be a much larger job and probably wouldn’t be worth the cost in a production steel bike. As for Disc brakes having more braking power, I'm sure we're discussing accuracy of braking and not in fact absolute braking power which we all know can be achieved with any brake on the market as well as with a long stick. In terms of accuracy or modulation or whatever you want to call it, in my experience mechanical disc brakes with 160mm rotors are on par with very good rim brakes, eg. ultegra dual pivots. With 203mm rotors the mechanical disc brakes of course take the lead. Cantilevers don't come close to the best rim brakes and are in fact probably the least accurate rim brake out there. And, just as there are good disc brakes and bad disc brakes as well as good sidepulls and bad, the same pattern is repeated with cantilevers. Most people’s experience is with bad, cheap cantilevers. All of the disc brake equipped bikes I own have 203mm front rotors and good calipers. My touring bike (and a couple of other of my bikes) have cantilevers. I have added touring loads to disc equipped bikes as well as to the rim brake equipped touring bike. Neither one is substantially different in terms of how effective the brakes are. Neither one has ever failed to stop me when and where I want to stop. With hydraulics you get brakes which are bad (SRAM in general), brakes which are very good indeed and far better than any rim brake on the planet (magura MT models for example) and then there are brakes where the performance and accuracy is nothing short of otherworldly (Shimano GRX). I'm rarely blown away by anything bike related because, well, it's just bikes. But the GRX brakes are just ridiculously good. So good in fact that I've almost crashed multiple times because of them. They're so confidence inspiring and recoverable from skids that I've frequently ridden faster than my skills / reaction times allow for only to be saved by the brakes in question. I mean One finger panic brake to a full stop rear lift from the hoods type of power but still accurate enough to feather on loose sand, wet leaves, gravel on asphalt with no issues whatsoever. I kinda want them on my mountain bike. |
Originally Posted by Trueblood
(Post 22679963)
Well, there is this - https://www.bikesdirect.com/products...ng-bikes-v.htm It has cantis. I may need to get out the popcorn at the mention of this company, but the bikes are just fine..
@staehpj1 - how do you wear out a rim using rim brakes? Haven't heard of that before, but it is entirely possible i guess. |
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