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Talk me out of Frame Mounted Front Racks

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Talk me out of Frame Mounted Front Racks

Old 03-21-23, 03:49 AM
  #51  
Trakhak
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Terrific post from john m flores above. But it's clear that even that evidence, including his riding no hands with low riders, will have no effect. Title of thread should be changed to "It will be impossible to talk me out of a frame-mounted front rack."
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Old 03-21-23, 04:12 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by Doug64 View Post
These are pictures that were sent to me several years ago from one of Adventure Cycling's contributors. It was the only place I could find a copy of the document. They are the results of Blackburn's weigh location tests. I'd take the results of this "experiment" with a grain of salt, because the bike was loaded with 80 lbs of sand. Very few people tour with 80 lbs. of weight on their bike.



Cropped to make it easier to read.






My wife took this picture of me on my Bianchi

I also tour on an aluminum Cannondale T2, and a Surly LHT. The Volpe is the quickest handling of the 3 bikes. While I don't ride no hands very often, none of the loaded bikes cause any problems.

Just showing off for my wife.


All the bikes are loaded the same, similar to # 4 in Blackburn's recommendation with a max of 40 lbs.
Great, thank you very much!
They basically tested what bag placement combination produces a weight distribution that feels stable. It makes sense. But ideal weight distribution can be equally achieved with a frame mounted front rack if the overall luggage weight isn't too high. If weight is as high as in this test there is no way around low riders.

A little nerdy note There was a small mistake they made. They wrote: "The bike responds more slowly this way than with no weight at all, but in most cases is actually more stable. The result is similar to increasing the fork rake or head angle." It should say: "The result is similar to decreasing the fork rake or head angle." That's because increased stability/ slowly responding steering is achieved by higher trail which is is achieved by decreased head angle and/or decreased for rake.
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Old 03-21-23, 04:29 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Terrific post from john m flores above. But it's clear that even that evidence, including his riding no hands with low riders, will have no effect. Title of thread should be changed to "It will be impossible to talk me out of a frame-mounted front rack."
You have to dive into the nuance of the discussion
No theoretically convincing reason was presented that supports the case that steering axis mounted front racks ride better than frame mounted front racks. On the empirical side: those who had experience with both types were neutral to slightly in favor of frame mounted front racks. Here is what they said:

Reddleman:
"...loaded front bag (10l Carradice bar bag) attached to the head tube of the frame and two 26l panniers on a rack at the rear. Frame mounted front racks and bags are commonly found on smaller wheeled bikes (Moultons for example have used them since the 1960s) and they donít affect the handling, but there is the visual effect of the bag going straight ahead when steering left or right to get over to begin with."

staehpj1:
"I have used fairly heavy handlebar bags frame mounted on a little rack instead of on the bars. They were a bit lower than when on the bars. I didn't notice any handling hit."

djb:
"I have ridden a frame mounted rack bike (a Brompton ) and as someone who has ridden fork mounted racked bikes for decades, I have to say that the difference was there, but for me certainly not a game changer."

The vast majority of comments said that they have ridden steering axis mounted low riders extensively and very very happy.

It is my nature to optimize things and not go with the safe alternative (what most do and what works) at the risk of failing. I will in fact try both (my fork has mounts for a fork mounted rack). There were just not enough (actually none; edit: there was one: the cantilever effect argument by Tourist in MSN, post #32) theoretical or empirical reasons provided to not try it. My biggest concern is the possibly irritating visual effect of the rack not turning with you. I hope you don't take this personally.

Last edited by aerohorst; 03-21-23 at 04:50 AM.
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Old 03-21-23, 05:46 AM
  #54  
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You haven't mentioned whether you've used clamp-on aero bars on any of your touring bikes. They enable riders to gently stretch the back while greatly increasing aerodynamic efficiency. Win-win.
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Old 03-21-23, 07:11 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
You haven't mentioned whether you've used clamp-on aero bars on any of your touring bikes. They enable riders to gently stretch the back while greatly increasing aerodynamic efficiency. Win-win.
I do. Win-win indeed!
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Old 03-21-23, 07:50 AM
  #56  
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horst, have you ever heard of american made handlebars called Jones bars? These types of bars can give the option of sitting very straight or learning forward depending on hand position.

You clearly are emphasizing your lower back issues, and this really seems to be the reason you are exploring this topic, so that you can easily ride sitting up.
Every person is physically different and every bike fit issue is different for different people, but you could possibly help your back problem with higher bars.
You could also be someone that has a very specific back issue, or someone who is never happy with what you have, it is impossible for any of us to know except you.

how about you show some photos of the bike that causes you back problems, just so we have a visual of how your bike is set up?
What kind of bars do you use? Again, photos would help, but even then it is whatever works for you.
Also, you could be 35 years old or 75 years old
tschus
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Old 03-21-23, 09:09 AM
  #57  
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https://www.slowtwitch.com/Bike_Fit/...d_CG_5820.html
Don't have time to summarize it but this is, in terms of side wind instability, in favor of frame mounted racks over steering axle mounted racks IF the axle mounted bag sits in front of the steering axis (which is the case for steering axle mounted racks above the front wheel and handlebar bags). It is also in favor of low rider bags (even bettering frame the mounted rack) IF the majority of the bag surface sits behind the steering axle.

Last edited by aerohorst; 03-21-23 at 09:20 AM.
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Old 03-21-23, 09:16 AM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
horst, have you ever heard of american made handlebars called Jones bars? These types of bars can give the option of sitting very straight or learning forward depending on hand position.

You clearly are emphasizing your lower back issues, and this really seems to be the reason you are exploring this topic, so that you can easily ride sitting up.
Every person is physically different and every bike fit issue is different for different people, but you could possibly help your back problem with higher bars.
You could also be someone that has a very specific back issue, or someone who is never happy with what you have, it is impossible for any of us to know except you.

how about you show some photos of the bike that causes you back problems, just so we have a visual of how your bike is set up?
What kind of bars do you use? Again, photos would help, but even then it is whatever works for you.
Also, you could be 35 years old or 75 years old
tschus
Thanks for the hint. I know the Jones bar are. You might have guessed it already but I also have a custom handlebar in the works to allow sitting upright and being aero depending on the grip position. The bike that didn't ride well with the low riders no handed I don't have pictures of (had it 10y ago) unfortunately.
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Old 03-21-23, 09:19 AM
  #59  
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I'm sure you have experienced strong side winds like all of us, and having a loaded bike certainly makes a bike way more stable than an unloaded bike.
In the end, show us your frame mounted racked bike when you get it, and also the bikes that you have ridden touring. Flat bars, trekking bars, dropbars?

** typing at same time, did not see your answer about custom bars.
I have found my Jones bars to be fun to ride, allows me to sit up when hands are on the farthest back of the bars, and then with headwinds etc the other hand positions are a nice back change.
But I also am super comfortable on my dropbar touring bike too.

Last edited by djb; 03-21-23 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 03-21-23, 09:36 AM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
I'm sure you have experienced strong side winds like all of us, and having a loaded bike certainly makes a bike way more stable than an unloaded bike.
In the end, show us your frame mounted racked bike when you get it, and also the bikes that you have ridden touring. Flat bars, trekking bars, dropbars?

** typing at same time, did not see your answer about custom bars.
I have found my Jones bars to be fun to ride, allows me to sit up when hands are on the farthest back of the bars, and then with headwinds etc the other hand positions are a nice back change.
But I also am super comfortable on my dropbar touring bike too.
This was my last bike (unfortunately stolen last year) 😔


I have mostly used drop bars (coming from mountain biking).
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Old 03-21-23, 11:24 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
horst, have you ever heard of american made handlebars called Jones bars? These types of bars can give the option of sitting very straight or learning forward depending on hand position.

You clearly are emphasizing your lower back issues, and this really seems to be the reason you are exploring this topic, so that you can easily ride sitting up.
Every person is physically different and every bike fit issue is different for different people, but you could possibly help your back problem with higher bars.
You could also be someone that has a very specific back issue, or someone who is never happy with what you have, it is impossible for any of us to know except you.

how about you show some photos of the bike that causes you back problems, just so we have a visual of how your bike is set up?
What kind of bars do you use? Again, photos would help, but even then it is whatever works for you.
Also, you could be 35 years old or 75 years old
tschus
He's talking of riding no-hands, not just sitting up straighter. I get it. The lowest point of my decades of riding were the years after I broke my tailbone and couldn't sit up and go no-hands without real pain then and later. (Before I discovered seats with full length grooves or "V" shaped cutouts in back.) That is why I stated my advocacy of LowRiders then stayed quiet except offering the suggestion or trying moving LowRider panniers for and aft. (I'm still wondering if panniers far enough aft to be behind the steering axis would nullify the flop effect. And could this be done without foot clearance issues? Or maybe its just sharp turns that would be an issue.)

I do know that putting the heavy stuff as far back as possible lessens the tendency to "steer" when the bike is leaned. Also using the rear option on the Blackburn racks. Maybe I should try sliding the Ortleib lower hook far forward to slide the bag further back. Perhaps I'll try that for Saturday's market run.
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Old 03-21-23, 01:18 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
...I'm still wondering if panniers far enough aft to be behind the steering axis would nullify the flop effect....
Very interesting though! I think it would nullify the wheel flop enhancing effect.
Edit: ...not only nullify but counteract because the front half of the wheel that falls to the side and down when the wheel is turned has to lift up the weight behind the steering axis. Not 100% sure but seems right.

Regarding foot clearance: just measure front-center (bb-front axle) or use the bikegeocalc.com to calculate it. Then subtract crank length and the distance of the pedal spindle to tip of the shoe when it's clipped in. That is the maximum distance between front axle and rear end of the pannier. As long as you don't put the pannier more rearwards than this turning the wheel makes no difference. If the pannier would be very flat, let's say just 5cm, then you could put the pannier even more rearward (same principle like with your shoe overlapping with the tire when looked at from the side). You'd then have to calculate how much overlap is possible without your shoe hitting the pannier when turning the wheel. But your panniers bulge out to the side too much anyway for that to be irrelevant. For illustration purposes of these dynamics see: https://www.rodbikes.com/articles/phinney-fork/rake-trail-gravel-bikes.html

Last edited by aerohorst; 03-21-23 at 01:48 PM.
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Old 03-21-23, 04:34 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by aerohorst View Post
This was my last bike (unfortunately stolen last year).
A touring bike without fenders!? I did this in the 80's and quickly discovered the joy of fenders.
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Old 03-22-23, 09:41 AM
  #64  
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Here's my 120 lb Rhinocerous, mile 0 my last tour of the NW. ZERO bikes like it, LOL. I got the DIY disc plate welded in Seattle.
Damn shame Bike Bins disappeared. They have survived several crashes because they are stuffed full. All 3 bins are 100% waterproof.
Notice the tool holder/ ballast tank under the BB.
It still does have a bad no hands shimmy when loaded. Doesn't stop me from going 43 mph.
Cross wind had NO effect actually.
I wouldn't change much with this bike on a re-do. Having a flat on the rear is a major undertaking.
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Old 03-22-23, 09:55 AM
  #65  
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Old 03-23-23, 12:24 AM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by GamblerGORD53 View Post
Here's my 120 lb Rhinocerous, mile 0 my last tour of the NW. ZERO bikes like it, LOL. I got the DIY disc plate welded in Seattle.
Damn shame Bike Bins disappeared. They have survived several crashes because they are stuffed full. All 3 bins are 100% waterproof.
Notice the tool holder/ ballast tank under the BB.
It still does have a bad no hands shimmy when loaded. Doesn't stop me from going 43 mph.
Cross wind had NO effect actually.
I wouldn't change much with this bike on a re-do. Having a flat on the rear is a major undertaking.
That is a very interesting bike! Actually the coolest/ most different bike I have seen in a while. Thanks for sharing. GamblerGORD53

The bag at the front is mounted to the head tube right?

Have you done some systematic testing to see what the effect of each bag is? I.e. only taking off the front bag and keeping everything else the same? Taking off the balast bag under the bb and keeping everything else the same? If you did what conclusions did you draw on the effects each bag has?

How much weight is typically in each of these two (front bag and under bb) bags?

Last edited by aerohorst; 03-25-23 at 01:55 AM.
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Old 03-25-23, 08:55 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by aerohorst View Post
This was my last bike (unfortunately stolen last year) 😔


I have mostly used drop bars (coming from mountain biking).
Horst, that seat to bar drop is quite significant, as is that seat angle.
I guess if you like a riding position like this, what can I say, if it works for you, great.
You do however bring In this topic how you have back problems, and to me this riding position would seem to causing that. Consider that anyway.
Good luck in your quest.
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Old 03-26-23, 11:36 AM
  #68  
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Without getting into the physics of weight distribution, I have found that front panniers allow me to semi-organize my gear. If I remember which pannier my rain jacket is in, I may be able to find it before the shower passes.
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Old 03-26-23, 12:42 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by Pratt View Post
Without getting into the physics of weight distribution, I have found that front panniers allow me to semi-organize my gear. If I remember which pannier my rain jacket is in, I may be able to find it before the shower passes.
I posted this photo above in post 37, repeating the photo here. One thing I like about Ortlieb Frontloaders is that they have a strap over the top in the middle. (The City version lacks this.) In the photo, my rain pants and shoe covers are on top of my right side front pannier, my rain jacket is on top of the left front pannier.



I have another set of panniers that lack those top straps, and every trip I do with those other panniers, I get really bummed when the sprinkles start falling because I have to open up a pannier to get my rain gear.

Other than rain gear, I do find that it is easier for me to remember which front pannier has what The rear panniers, I can never remember which has what.
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Old 03-26-23, 12:45 PM
  #70  
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Originally Posted by aerohorst View Post
This was my last bike (unfortunately stolen last year) 😔


....
I am reasonably confident that your seatpost was installed backwards.

But since the bike was stolen, call that retribution against the thief.
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Old 03-28-23, 09:20 AM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by Trakhak View Post
Terrific post from john m flores above. But it's clear that even that evidence, including his riding no hands with low riders, will have no effect. Title of thread should be changed to "It will be impossible to talk me out of a frame-mounted front rack."
I think the credit belongs to Doug64
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Old 04-04-23, 02:15 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Horst, that seat to bar drop is quite significant, as is that seat angle.
I guess if you like a riding position like this, what can I say, if it works for you, great.
You do however bring In this topic how you have back problems, and to me this riding position would seem to causing that. Consider that anyway.
Good luck in your quest.
The bike is set up for short rides in the city, not for touring...
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Old 04-04-23, 02:17 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I am reasonably confident that your seatpost was installed backwards.

But since the bike was stolen, call that retribution against the thief.
Haha that was funny That seatpost is a Redshift Dual Position seatpost. On that picture it happens to be in the forward position (for aero bar use).
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Old 04-04-23, 04:58 AM
  #74  
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Originally Posted by aerohorst View Post
The bike is set up for short rides in the city, not for touring...
Good, glad to hear. I once met a guy touring and his seat was also angled like yours.
Why don't you show us the bike you use for touring--it would give some insight to things as you make it clear that you have lower back problems.
I doubt any of us can help you, but seeing the bike that gives you a sore back when touring might help, if you are open to suggestions.
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Old 04-04-23, 08:11 AM
  #75  
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Originally Posted by djb View Post
Good, glad to hear. I once met a guy touring and his seat was also angled like yours.
Why don't you show us the bike you use for touring--it would give some insight to things as you make it clear that you have lower back problems.
I doubt any of us can help you, but seeing the bike that gives you a sore back when touring might help, if you are open to suggestions.
To be clear, I don't ride with the seatpost as you see it in that picture when riding in the city. That setting is for using the triathlon style aero bars and it just happened to be in that setting when I took the picture. For touring I had used this bike (set up with a higher front end...). I think I know the factors contributing to lower back pain and how to remedy it. But thanks for the concern!
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