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Braze-on vs bolt-on pannier rack mounts dilemma.

Old 07-24-23, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Bet.
Post your bike.
Hi!
Thanks for taking the time with me! I have to figure out how to do photos again. I used before my old Nikon Coolpix a guy gave to me that he'd dropped many times. I use a wooden toothpick to press into the hole where the button was to take the shot ha! I have to charge it up as it's been stored a long time! It's a 1998 Diamondback rigid frame of 4130 Cro-Mo metal and 26 inch wheels. I had the wheels custom made as I weigh a lot and was breaking way too many spokes. I lost 46lbs so far and hope to lose 54 more on a Carnivore Diet. Thanks for your interest!

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Old 07-24-23, 06:50 PM
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Originally Posted by winfred0000
Great saddlesores! So nice of you to go out of your way with me! I'll look those racks up! You're the bur in my saddle ha!

top of the evening!
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if you didn't see the edit to my post, i've included a link to a PAIR of blackburn racks on auction starting at $50 with no bids yet.
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Old 07-24-23, 07:11 PM
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Originally Posted by winfred0000
Hi GamblerGord! I weigh a lot so I have a mountain bike and was breaking so many spokes I 2 yrs ago on my stimulus money spent $480 on my present wheels other mechanics have said are "bullet proof". I bought a Shimano Acera derailleur. The ridgid frame is an old Diamondback 4130 Cro-Mo and it came to me when my former Diamondback frame was unuseable when the mechanics could not remove the bottom bracket it was rusted in so bad so they found this 1998 frame that was the same. The frame looked hardly ever used and even the delicate decals from the store that originally sold it was still on the frame. In a way it's a now a frame with 5 years use. I presently have the Axion rear rack rated to 100lbs carrying weight, so the guy who sold it to me said. A mechanic at another shop said "no way" can it support that much weight. So that's how I get around. I decided to buy the more durable Portland Design Works metal fenders and there are the threaded islets for fenders on my bike and holes at the top for 2 mounting points for fenders that work fine. I was told my frame is very strong. That's what I get by with and hope to tour the world on my Bucket List.
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Ignore him. He never has anything substantive to contribute.
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Old 07-24-23, 07:15 PM
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Originally Posted by abdon
I like your bike, but either of the two sums you mention are insane to spend on putting racks on your bike. Sounds to be like you are dealing with a want rather than a real need.

Clamps would work just fine. A $50 rack would work just fine. Check and see if there is a bike collective near you, mine has a stack of racks that are most likely under $10 a pop.

Heck the biggest problem with dropping a ton of coin on something like this before you even start your touring is that you may find it is not ideal. The best way to dial things in is through trial and error until you settle on what works best. Start that trial with the cheap rack, don't upgrade it until you have an actual issue to fix.
Hi abdon!

Again so kind of you! I checked at 4 different shops that sell new, and used bikes and parts and some with big inventories and a fifth shop by phone only and all said they had no used touring racks nor used touring bikes. I looked on craigslist but again it's hard because I can now use the clamps and thinking my bike is very strong. That frame builder did say when he saw my bike that he likes the old 4130 steel frame bikes as they are so strong. I also 2 yrs ago spent stimulus money and $480 on a set of custom wheels as I was breaking so many spokes. I also about 8 years ago at an free open shop day installed my own index shifters and V brakes all used Shimano gear so even by far stronger brakes. I also have a couple of years old Shimano Acera deraillueur. So a pretty good bike as it is. It's strange as the new wheels with Shimano DeOre XT axles I swear I coast much farther and just glide along amazingly. I love it when I don't have to be using my studded tires in the winter months.

I lost 46lbs so far and hope to lose another 54 and also have double butted spokes and 36 spokes a wheel. I plan to carry a fair amount of stuff like maybe 60lbs in rear and 40lbs front. I also don't want to break down. The reality is you're so right on! I have a cheap Axion rear rack I use with groceries or day supplies if I go on picnics. I go out a lot to get out of my small apartment as I live in a big Senior high-rise. If I'm not on an errand and I live fairly far from everything, I then go on exercise rides like I must this evening. So I try to stay in reasonable shape.

The problem is I've never bike/camped. I starved the month of March and half of April to also with Christmas and birthday money get a very good 4 season tent and with the tarp made to fit under it for rough ground pitching. I've done practice runs setting it up at a local park. I have to sleep upright because I have "sleep apnea" and the sleep center tech said if I sleep upright I don't have apneas. A travellers CPAP machine that helps you breath right at night costs $1,000!!! So I needed a tent tall enough I could set up my portable beach chair to sleep upright. I've only camped like this one night about 10 years ago with my old tent. My new tent weighs 9lbs! Also the bag that it fits in is big. I can't risk hypothermia with a tent collapsing in a storm etc and at times I might live out of it in some foreign country for weeks or months as sometimes I want to stop touring in a place I like and stay maybe a few months. I've hardly ever been around the ocean so I look forward maybe to a place by the sea, and also maybe a place around mountains as I haven't been around those much.You have great practical advice!

THANKS!
wINFRED
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Old 07-24-23, 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
if you didn't see the edit to my post, i've included a link to a PAIR of blackburn racks on auction starting at $50 with no bids yet.

Hi! Thanks as I did see that! I'm answering all here but have to go out but such great help!
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Old 07-24-23, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by winfred0000
Age 69, retired, no car, subsist on Social Security and bicycle commuting. Iím planning bike tours with my Bucket List. Aiming for trial 1,500-2,000 mile trip, then possibly a last worldwide trip through 54 countries possibly taking several years. Have a 26 inch (spent $480 on custom wheels about 2 yrs ago) 1998 Diamondback mountain bike, 4130 Cro-Mo rigid frame. Need to carry camping gear and Surly racks seem the best (?). Frame builder suggested $790 for braze-ons including the Surly racks. I did research then I later asked him about the bolt-on strap style mounts he never brought up. He said heíll do it with bolt-ons for $400 including the Surly racks and that plenty tour that way, but any more questions will require a consultation fee.

Concerned about bolt-on reliability. Unsure whether to save money and invest in braze-ons for added security during tours but face a very low budget reality. I still need to buy quite a lot of additional camping gear and Gotlieb front panniers. What would you do? Seeking advice on the reliability of bolt-ons for touring. Thanks for any advice!!
The price your "builder" quoted is unreal. You can buy a new Surly Disc Trucker frame currently for $559. I'm not suggesting you do that, just letting you know that s cheaper than what your "builder" is quoting for braze-ons and racks. Yes, you's have to buy the racks on top of that, but you'd have a better setup in the end. The clamps from Tubus others have suggested will work for you. As Tourist said, I believe he was who said it, you can use the clamps now, then reevaluate your setup later. You may find you want a different bike later for touring, or, you may find your current bike works quite well. If you do get a different bike later, you'll already have the racks.
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Old 07-24-23, 07:19 PM
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Originally Posted by winfred0000
Hi abdon!

Again so kind of you! I checked at 4 different shops that sell new, and used bikes and parts and some with big inventories and a fifth shop by phone only and all said they had no used touring racks nor used touring bikes. I looked on craigslist but again it's hard because I can now use the clamps and thinking my bike is very strong. That frame builder did say when he saw my bike that he likes the old 4130 steel frame bikes as they are so strong. I also 2 yrs ago spent stimulus money and $480 on a set of custom wheels as I was breaking so many spokes. I also about 8 years ago at an free open shop day installed my own index shifters and V brakes all used Shimano gear so even by far stronger brakes. I also have a couple of years old Shimano Acera deraillueur. So a pretty good bike as it is. It's strange as the new wheels with Shimano DeOre XT axles I swear I coast much farther and just glide along amazingly. I love it when I don't have to be using my studded tires in the winter months.

I lost 46lbs so far and hope to lose another 54 and also have double butted spokes and 36 spokes a wheel. I plan to carry a fair amount of stuff like maybe 60lbs in rear and 40lbs front. I also don't want to break down. The reality is you're so right on! I have a cheap Axion rear rack I use with groceries or day supplies if I go on picnics. I go out a lot to get out of my small apartment as I live in a big Senior high-rise. If I'm not on an errand and I live fairly far from everything, I then go on exercise rides like I must this evening. So I try to stay in reasonable shape.

The problem is I've never bike/camped. I starved the month of March and half of April to also with Christmas and birthday money get a very good 4 season tent and with the tarp made to fit under it for rough ground pitching. I've done practice runs setting it up at a local park. I have to sleep upright because I have "sleep apnea" and the sleep center tech said if I sleep upright I don't have apneas. A travellers CPAP machine that helps you breath right at night costs $1,000!!! So I needed a tent tall enough I could set up my portable beach chair to sleep upright. I've only camped like this one night about 10 years ago with my old tent. My new tent weighs 9lbs! Also the bag that it fits in is big. I can't risk hypothermia with a tent collapsing in a storm etc and at times I might live out of it in some foreign country for weeks or months as sometimes I want to stop touring in a place I like and stay maybe a few months. I've hardly ever been around the ocean so I look forward maybe to a place by the sea, and also maybe a place around mountains as I haven't been around those much.You have great practical advice!

THANKS!
wINFRED

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Old 07-24-23, 07:30 PM
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
if you didn't see the edit to my post, i've included a link to a PAIR of blackburn racks on auction starting at $50 with no bids yet.
Hi!
I just looked and I used to own that exact rack! I gave it to Goodwill when I moved to the "big city" after taking care of my parents. I was foolish doing that but only had a little Subaru to pack my stuff into.. I had a road bike and thought with my weight gain I better find a used mountain bike thus the one I now have. The Blackburn is about like I have now, an Axion rear rack that the seller said was good up to 100lbs, but later a mechanic told me that's bogus and never rely on 100lbs, more like 55. I might do some overnight or two nights camping near me to experiment with my new tent and my beach chair and sleeping upright due to correcting my sleep apnea. It's something as Stat Parks here are not $23 a night! When I travel I'll have to find camping wherever I can hide. My present Diamondback is stronger than my former road bike and I can ride fairly upright as otherwise road vibration, when I have a more leaned forward position, puts weight on my arms thus my shoulders and I have nerve impingements in my cervical spine from carrying backpacks and other heavy things on my shoulders in my university years and just living and working in my younger years as I didn't own a car once I moved to the big city. With my parents I of course needed a car and rural area required greater distances of travel in all seasons. The impingement got so painful a year ago I had to have a cortisone injection right into my cervical spine! My record cold ride is twice at 21 below F ha! That was many years ago! About 8 years ago I rode at 14 below windchill and at my age even then was too cold ha! I was lucky to find a parking ramp with a heated stairwell to warm up!

later,
Winfred
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Old 07-24-23, 07:31 PM
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You say you have a bike co-op nearby? Go pick up rear rack for $10 or under, I'm sure no hourly bench charges if you take it with you. Ask for P clamps which they should have or stop by the hardware store to find some. Then go home and install your rack, take as long as you like without time constraints.

You can use either a piece of bicycle tire tube or leather as a gasket between the bike and the c clamp, it will keep everything tighter and from rattling. For cheap leather swing by the nearest thrift store and find a raged leather bag for cheap, cut the leather out.

If you plan on doing long unsupported tours you really need to become a bike mechanic or resign yourself to pay a ton of money when (not if, when) something fails.
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Old 07-24-23, 07:35 PM
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
if you didn't see the edit to my post, i've included a link to a PAIR of blackburn racks on auction starting at $50 with no bids yet.
I forgot to say I have had since July 15th $22 to my name until my social security on August 1st and same happened in june with grocery price increases on my carnivore diet. My Renter's Credit should be coming any day and have to wait for that. It doesn't say how many pounds capacity for the front rack but very nice i has that hoop that goes over the top like Surly does that I think makes it a lot stronger.

Thanks!
Winfred
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Old 07-24-23, 07:57 PM
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Originally Posted by abdon
You say you have a bike co-op nearby? Go pick up rear rack for $10 or under, I'm sure no hourly bench charges if you take it with you. Ask for P clamps which they should have or stop by the hardware store to find some. Then go home and install your rack, take as long as you like without time constraints.

You can use either a piece of bicycle tire tube or leather as a gasket between the bike and the c clamp, it will keep everything tighter and from rattling. For cheap leather swing by the nearest thrift store and find a raged leather bag for cheap, cut the leather out.

If you plan on doing long unsupported tours you really need to become a bike mechanic or resign yourself to pay a ton of money when (not if, when) something fails.

Hi!

Good idea as now I'll go the route maybe of doing the 1,500 mile journey with a strong used rack from the coop and buy their clamps. I don't know why the two times I inquired there neither of the people I talked to said anything about p-clamps, just go to the frame builder for braze-ons. They also twice showed me the brand new Axion front rack that has I think it's a 17 kilos max load and a guy said never go by what they say it carries and go a couple of kilos below that to be safe. They are closed on Tuesdays, but will try. This site and you are so interesting but being lazy and skipping my exercise run for today. It's supposed to be hotter tomorrow and don't like riding after dark. You have a very practical mind that I need to have more of. Very cleaver idea about a source of leather. I suppose you mean leather is better than using on old bike inner tube rubber. I save plenty of those ha! Is leather better because it grips more? That Blackburn front rack looks strong so I'll try it. I've been looking every day for my renter's credit to come and nothing yet.

Thanks!
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Old 07-24-23, 08:08 PM
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Winfred, I just realized you may be lacking the necessary ability to fix your bike on your own, alone on the side of the road. Someone posted earlier a suggestion of finding an old abandoned bike to be used as a tool for learning how a bicycle is assembled and adjusted. If you plan on relying on a companion rider, don't, its a bad plan because it is not a plan. The other rider can abandon the ride at anytime and leave you fending for yourself.

Honestly, if you are unsure of your ability to install a simple rack using P-clamps, I believe you will be screwed royally should you have a cable failure or replacement of brake pads, wheel truing, etc. Remember, you are out there on your own.
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Old 07-24-23, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by abdon
You say you have a bike co-op nearby? Go pick up rear rack for $10 or under, I'm sure no hourly bench charges if you take it with you. Ask for P clamps which they should have or stop by the hardware store to find some. Then go home and install your rack, take as long as you like without time constraints.

You can use either a piece of bicycle tire tube or leather as a gasket between the bike and the c clamp, it will keep everything tighter and from rattling. For cheap leather swing by the nearest thrift store and find a raged leather bag for cheap, cut the leather out.

If you plan on doing long unsupported tours you really need to become a bike mechanic or resign yourself to pay a ton of money when (not if, when) something fails.
Hi!!

Scroll down in the photos for the Blackburn front rack and photo just below the one showing the hardware. Look at "Fig B" where it shows with the threaded islet I have on my fork the threaded islet where I already have my Portland Design Works fender attached. You will see what I mean. I will have the "Special V stay", the "Lower L Bracket" and my fender all attached there. I want to also find the Blackburn narrower platform and that will attach there too. Will that be too much all on one islet? Is there a style of P-clamp that can strap maybe one of those to the fork instead, or will it be too much on the same islet and bolt, or do they have some super strong titanium type bolt that can handle all of that? Would the islet possibly break off?

Thanks!
Winfred
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Old 07-24-23, 09:08 PM
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I don't see any pictures
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Old 07-25-23, 01:01 PM
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Wow this thread.
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Old 07-25-23, 03:08 PM
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Originally Posted by mstateglfr
Wow this thread.
yepper, certainly hitting all the right buttons.
no bites yet, so more juicy tidbits being added as the thread progresses.
i'm waiting for a mention of busking with accordion to pay for the round the globe expedition.
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Old 07-26-23, 06:15 AM
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From what I have seen, Axiom racks have had over-rated weight ratings for years, I would not trust them.

The heaviest duty rack I have seen is Thorn expedition rack, rated at 40 kg with M5 bolts but 60 kg with M6 bolts. And they specifically warn that on rough roads to reduce that. That suggests that the common M5 bolts that most bikes use for racks are good for no more than 40 kg, or about 88 pounds on good smooth pavement.

Is there a reason that all of your posts are in bold text. I find that quite distracting.
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Old 07-27-23, 02:56 AM
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Even 40kg is an insane amount of weight to be thinking about touring with, let alone 60kg, let alone just on the rear. Not to mention that the Thorn rack is not built to mount all that weight low. That number sounds like a gimmick.

My front and back Nitto Campee racks are only rated to 16kg (35 pounds) and that seems like an extremely conservative number. Not like I would want to load more than that.
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Old 07-27-23, 03:21 AM
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Originally Posted by abdon
Even 40kg is an insane amount of weight to be thinking about touring with, let alone 60kg, let alone just on the rear. Not to mention that the Thorn rack is not built to mount all that weight low. That number sounds like a gimmick.

My front and back Nitto Campee racks are only rated to 16kg (35 pounds) and that seems like an extremely conservative number. Not like I would want to load more than that.
not at all.

if you're on a long tour where you need to cross long stretches of dessert (200+ miles) with a temperature of 100+ degrees and no water supplies available, you're going to need to carry that much in water alone.
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Old 07-27-23, 03:48 AM
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Originally Posted by abdon
I don't see any pictures
Hi Abdon!
Several things at once here and absent. I mean the Fig B at the Ebay ad for the Blackburn front rack. It is a photo of the install instructions that shows were the rack and all will bolt into the threaded islet where presently my fender is bolted in place as that is all I have in the front so far. I'm just wondering if there can be at least 3 things going to the same bolt and if not what way could I get around that with another strap or something. On the far left of the first photo is the long list of thumnails or photos. You have to scroll down to just below the photo of the hardware that comes with the rack and you'll see it is the install instructions. Sorry I wasn't clear. .https://www.ebay.com/itm/285366324902#shpCntId
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Old 07-27-23, 03:54 AM
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Originally Posted by abdon
Even 40kg is an insane amount of weight to be thinking about touring with, let alone 60kg, let alone just on the rear. Not to mention that the Thorn rack is not built to mount all that weight low. That number sounds like a gimmick.

My front and back Nitto Campee racks are only rated to 16kg (35 pounds) and that seems like an extremely conservative number. Not like I would want to load more than that.
Hi! Abdon!

I can't find where the Blackburn front rack notes what the load capacity is for that rack. Do you know anywhere where I could find that figure? Really the reality is I want to put a pair of Gotlieb front pannier bags in front. Are you familiar with how the Gotlieb rack clip or hook on? Would that rack work for Gotlieb bags?

Thanks!
Winfred

https://www.ebay.com/itm/285366324902#shpCntId

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Old 07-27-23, 04:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
From what I have seen, Axiom racks have had over-rated weight ratings for years, I would not trust them.

The heaviest duty rack I have seen is Thorn expedition rack, rated at 40 kg with M5 bolts but 60 kg with M6 bolts. And they specifically warn that on rough roads to reduce that. That suggests that the common M5 bolts that most bikes use for racks are good for no more than 40 kg, or about 88 pounds on good smooth pavement.

Is there a reason that all of your posts are in bold text. I find that quite distracting.
Hi Tourist in MSN!
I had my words in bold because I thought it would stand out more readily from the very small default type font here, so I'll keep it the same. Are there M6 bolts the strongest? Especially in the rear I might have 60lbs in the panniers and on the platform to the rear rack about 15lbs. Do you know how much weight the BlackBurn front rack is that's for sale on ebay? https://www.ebay.com/itm/285366324902#shpCntId I might get that but scroll down the photos and you'll see a Fig B that shows were it all bolts onto the threaded islet on the fork where my fenders are already attached. I want to get the Blackburn small platform too so 3 things all on the same bolt... isn't that bad? https://www.ebay.com/itm/285366324902#shpCntId I can't find any rating for how much that front rack can carry. I might buy that once my money comes around August 1st if it's still there. I plan to save money and buy the straps and install it myself. Maybe the Tubus allan bolts are the best, the ones someone had photos of a couple of days ago?

Thanks!
Winfred
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Old 07-27-23, 04:09 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
not at all.

if you're on a long tour where you need to cross long stretches of dessert (200+ miles) with a temperature of 100+ degrees and no water supplies available, you're going to need to carry that much in water alone.
Hi Saddlesores!

I don't know what I'll do in desert situations. Also, my salivary glands suddenly shut down about 8 months ago so on top of things even in average humidity I have to drink a lot or also use the artificial saliva spray I have, a problem that hampers my Bucket List world journey I hope to embark on. Even if I haul a one wheeled trailer that Burley CoHo trailer I think the capacity is only 70lbs. I thought it would be a great experience camping at a remote oasis in the Shara Desert just to see the camel caravans come through and all the people who hang out around such places.
Thanks!
Winfred
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Old 07-27-23, 04:13 AM
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Originally Posted by saddlesores
yepper, certainly hitting all the right buttons.
no bites yet, so more juicy tidbits being added as the thread progresses.
i'm waiting for a mention of busking with accordion to pay for the round the globe expedition.
Hi!
I need a sense of humor ha! I am retired and have a very modest level of Social Security that I hope to travel the world on in mainly the cheaper countries. I haven't read all the replies as I was absent 2 days with several things.

Carpe Diem!
Winfred
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Old 07-27-23, 04:28 AM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero
Winfred, I just realized you may be lacking the necessary ability to fix your bike on your own, alone on the side of the road. Someone posted earlier a suggestion of finding an old abandoned bike to be used as a tool for learning how a bicycle is assembled and adjusted. If you plan on relying on a companion rider, don't, its a bad plan because it is not a plan. The other rider can abandon the ride at anytime and leave you fending for yourself.

Honestly, if you are unsure of your ability to install a simple rack using P-clamps, I believe you will be screwed royally should you have a cable failure or replacement of brake pads, wheel truing, etc. Remember, you are out there on your own.
Hi Thabanero!

Thanks for taking the time to give input! Very wise advice. I carry tools with me for flat tire and I spent $35 for a combination tool, a nice one. Also I have a set of 3 allan wrenches a bike shop said are the most common for bikes. I also carry a screw driver and pliers. I have a portable pump too, and always have one new tube to put in if I don't have time to do the patching. I have the more expensive "Kool Stop" brakes where you pull a pin and slide in a new set of pads. I'm due for doing that for the first time in the next few days as my pads are getting low. Cable cutters are expensive but I better have one of those nice Park Tool cable cutters and ask at the bike show what brake and shifter cables and housing I should have. I also have the necessary chain/lever tool for removing my 7 speed cassette and will have an extra chain. I also plan to have a 20oz bottle of "Simple Green" a biodegradable cleaning soap bikers use. I bought a whole gallon and will keep a small bottle of that and use my Park chain cleaning tool and have Finish Line Dry lube as I have come to like that brand. I have custom wheels with double butted spokes and etra strong Cliffhanger rims with 36 spokes and with Shimano Deore XT hubs. I had to get that back when they had stimulus money and glad I did as they are very good wheels. My tires are the Schwabel summer tires that have abrasions in the rear wheel that I backed with patches of duct tape that has worked well as an extra precaution and they show no signs of giving out. I have a nice floor pump but have to leave that behind. My first trip might be just 40 miles round trip to a nearby State Park to see how I do, then go to relatives about 160 miles away, then maybe on to Canada to a Provincial Park I've camped at years ago, so could put on 1,500 to 2,000 miles round trip. Does that sound pretty good with the BlackBurn racks at Ebay? https://www.ebay.com/itm/285366324902#shpCntId Let me know if you can see if that front rack is rated for a certain weight. I looked over the photos of the install instructions etc. to try to find the load capacity and can't. Maybe you know where to go to find out, or might see what I missed. Thanks for your input!

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