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Pinion? If so, P1.18 or C1.12?

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Pinion? If so, P1.18 or C1.12?

Old 05-09-24, 07:07 AM
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Pinion? If so, P1.18 or C1.12?

A sequence of events are making me consider the possibility of retiring my LHT for a more recent rig. I came across Panorama cycles, a small manufacturer from my home town with exceptional reviews, and they propose a nice tourer fitted with conventional OR Pinion + Gates drivetrain. First reactions are -- (1) bloody expensive, but great kit (relatively bombproof, low maintenance); (2) 1.18 has reasonable 11% steps (vs 17% for 1.12; vs 6% for my current 3x10). (3) a Pinion-compatible frame is not compatible with other drivetrains (then again, moot point since these drivetrains are expected to last a lifetime).

I'll probably schedule an appointment for a test ride later this year. The idea is slowly percolating. In the meantime I'll read any opinion with considerable interest
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Old 05-09-24, 11:40 AM
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I wen’t with the P1.18 and so far it has been fantastic.
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Old 05-09-24, 12:43 PM
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I have a p-18 on one bike. I shift more often than with my derailleur bike, but my average speed is lower, possibly because of stiffer tires.
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Old 05-09-24, 01:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Pratt
I have a p-18 on one bike. I shift more often than with my derailleur bike, but my average speed is lower, possibly because of stiffer tires.
Interesting. Pinion is said to be less efficient than derailleurs. You'd lose something like less than 1 kmh in speed. (93% vs 97%). This matches your experience?
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Old 05-09-24, 01:29 PM
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I have never seen a pinion bike. I can only comment on what I suspect is similar to my Rohloff bike.

When I first built up my Rohloff bike, I was a bit frustrated that the 13 percent steps were pretty widely spaced. I eventually got used to that, but I would not want to go to 17 percent steps.

I wish my Rohloff range of 526 percent was wider, but the Pinion has that wider range so that would probably be great for you.

I have not been following Pinion, but it was my understanding that they introduced electronic shifting. If they still make cable shifting, that is what I would go for. Call it Luddite thinking or whatever you want, I want something I am familiar with and can fix pretty easy.

If you go with cable shifting, what type of bars? Drop or flat bars? I suspect that some of this would be pertinent to Pinion if you went with drop bars.
https://www.cyclingabout.com/rohloff...op-handlebars/

I have been using bar end shifters for decades on derailleur bikes, so I am very comfortable with a shifter on the end of my right hand bar end. I use the Hubbub adapter on my Rohloff bike. (The above link pictures that as wood, that is false, it is metal, google it if curious.) If you use drop bars, I will probably add a few photos of the shifter to this post later.

Be very careful to pick the chainring (beltring?) and sprocket sizes, it is expensive to change your ratios to something else. Think about what you want your lowest gear to be and your highest gear, use your existing bike to figure out what you want for gear inches and then tell the builder what you want for range for gears. Then they can make sure they have the right ratio of chainring to sprocket teeth.

I wanted chain instead of belt, I change my chainring for touring vs riding around home so I can have lower gear range for touring, higher for mostly unladen riding, and add or subtract for chain links. But since your touring load is not much different than an unladen bike, you probably would be quite happy with a single gear range as long as you picked the right gear ranges to start with.

I think you would be very happy with a Pinion bike with belt drive.

I think the Cycling About guy has extensive experience with Pinion, maybe you could use a Google Search to see if he comments on drop in efficiency? I met some belt drive Rohloff users when I was in Iceland, they felt that the belt added some more resistance, but if your goal is maintenance free, that is a trade off you need to consider. If you go somewhere on a tour, would you carry a spare belt? They could be hard to obtain locally.

If you have not looked at the Cycling About youtube videos on Pinion, you should.
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Old 05-09-24, 02:14 PM
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gauvins: I would go with the P18 636% range and 11.5% jumps between gears. I find that my Rohloff is only lacking in downhill pedaling gears. Tourist in MSN: Pinion has Smart Shift for there motorized 12 speed and as of this year for one of there 12 speed gear boxes wihout a motor. Priority sales a bicycle with it. The smart Shift is not available for the P18. Pinion makes the P line gearboxes from a single block of 7075 aluminum.
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Old 05-09-24, 06:00 PM
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I have the C12, with a gates belt drive. I am very happy with it. Great for bikepacking, I have done over 9000kms bikepacking on it plus all my daily training rides.
On my rides I love getting to camp and not worry about maintaining my drive train. Only spare I carry when riding is a spare belt.
I like the idea of the electric shift and would probably go for it if I had the option if I ever purchase another bike as my next bike would again have Pinion.
One thing to be aware of, my bike came with alloy sprockets, these didnt last very long, about 6000kms, and had to replace them and the belt, I now run steel and they show no sign of wear.
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Old 05-09-24, 07:14 PM
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P.18 with a Rohloff on the back plenty of gearing to get you anywhere. Not quite the 12 speed cassette DD3 hub with a P.18 and a fat bike front derailleur or offset with a 2x set up on the outside of that which would only be 2592 gears which should be hopefully enough to get you anywhere.

I personally have yet to play with a pinion system but I like the idea and personally would probably go p.18 to get more gears despite the jumps in gears I think I would rather have the 18 personally at least for touring.
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Old 05-10-24, 04:07 AM
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Pinion is mentioned in this thread on a tour:
2022 Scotland Trip - The Hebridean Way

***

One other thing to keep in mind, the Gates people want to make sure that frames are stiff enough and strong enough that the chainline (or beltline?) is maintained under all circumstances. Such frames are a bit heavier.

Besides a heavier gearbox, every pinion frame that I have seen described was a fairly heavy duty frame. Since you are striving for ultra light travel, that is something you might want to consider. How much heavier would this bike be?
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Old 05-10-24, 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Pinion is mentioned in this thread on a tour:
2022 Scotland Trip - The Hebridean Way

***

One other thing to keep in mind, the Gates people want to make sure that frames are stiff enough and strong enough that the chainline (or beltline?) is maintained under all circumstances. Such frames are a bit heavier.

Besides a heavier gearbox, every pinion frame that I have seen described was a fairly heavy duty frame. Since you are striving for ultra light travel, that is something you might want to consider. How much heavier would this bike be?
Thanks for the link.

WRT UL -- not for the bike itself. More interested in reducing pack size. I remember riding an unstable bike in the earlier years, or "struggling" (perhaps too strong a word) just to lift my bike above the curb. No longer the case. But more importantly, boarding a train/plane is a no brainer. A 4-pannier boxed bike requires careful planning, whereas I ride to the terminal or train station, ready to board in 15; no need for checked luggage; no struggle to pack stuff in the train's luggage compartment. A Pinion drive would actually make things even better.

WRT Pinion, very much on the fence. In part because a very positive review showed up in my feed; in part because panoramacycles has released an "almost affordable" and VERY well received touring bike; in part because my derailleur needs adjusting... And the fundamentals of the Pinion drive (indestructible) are a big plus. BUT, significantly lower efficiency (90% vs 97%) is an annoying downside; and eye watering price differential are such that I may never jump in that wagon. Weight... given where it is located (low, center) doesn't bother me that much. It is like an extra water bottle.

Perhaps I should consider the bike as an "investment grade asset". I'll try that line with my wife during dinner tonight (I already wonder what "investment grade asset" she'll suggest in return (life is sooo unfair)
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Old 05-10-24, 08:31 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
..
Perhaps I should consider the bike as an "investment grade asset". I'll try that line with my wife during dinner tonight (I already wonder what "investment grade asset" she'll suggest in return (life is sooo unfair)
Good luck with that. But like almost all cars, I have never heard of a new bike being worth more later. Occasionally you find a car that is worth more later due to extreme rarity, but I have never heard of a bike that fits the investment grade category unless perhaps it was used by a world famous racer.

There are advantages to derailleur bikes and different advantages to internal gearbox bikes. (Internal gearbox is my way of lumping Rohloff and Pinion into the same category.) I have both and I do not regret purchase of either.

The internal gearbox bikes can have much lower upkeep costs, drivetrain parts last much longer with the internal gearbox. How much do the supplies cost for the oil change and how frequent is that on an internal geared bike? Etc. The oil change supplies might be your only cost for the next half decade other than expendables like tires, brake pads and maybe cables.

I am getting ready for a tour right now, plan to use my light touring bike that has a derailleur drive train. Chain is at 0.5 percent elongation but not at 0.75 percent yet. I am trying to decide should I replace chain and cassette now or not? I would hate to be half way through a tour and start having the chain skipping on one of the sprockets I frequently use. I have a few weeks to decide, but I probably will make the change, as I value reliability. I might save the chain and cassette, put them back on the bike when I get home?
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Old 05-12-24, 08:29 PM
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My husband has bikes outfitted with Shimano Alfine 11, and a Rohloff 14. When he saw the price on the Priority 600 (equipped with a Pinion 12), he couldn't resist giving it a try. He says the steps aren't as noticeable as he thought they might be. Shifting, gear range, and gear noise, are all acceptable. A plus for the Pinion is the ease of removing the rear wheel, as the gearbox is in the bottom bracket.

I understand wanting to support your local dealer. If you are Pinion curious, and can't quite float the investment quality item past your wife - perhaps the Priority bike would be of interest. Jacinto said he would have preferred the 18, but he's still able to climb everything around home here in Colorado with the spacing on the 12 speed.

All of those bikes are belt drive.
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Old 05-12-24, 10:58 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
I am getting ready for a tour right now, plan to use my light touring bike that has a derailleur drive train. Chain is at 0.5 percent elongation but not at 0.75 percent yet. I am trying to decide should I replace chain and cassette now or not? I would hate to be half way through a tour and start having the chain skipping on one of the sprockets I frequently use. I have a few weeks to decide, but I probably will make the change, as I value reliability. I might save the chain and cassette, put them back on the bike when I get home?
An old chain would most probably skip on the gears you *least* frequently use, but perhaps not; My experience is that the chain beds into the cogs, matching each other. The middle gears get the most use but the low gears get the most torque under climbing and so far it evens out. I tried putting a new chain on the current cassette, too late, skipped, put old chain back on and will replace both when it is time.
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Old 05-12-24, 11:04 PM
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There's an ebike out now with rear hub motor and Pinion for manual pedaling, $2k, that's less than half the price than when I checked on Pinion a year or more ago.

I assume that all the Pinion bikes are not monostays, but have removeable dropouts, both to put on the belt, and to tension it.

My townie I ride 100% of the time with full panniers, not the most efficient, so I think a Pinion would be perfect for a townie, even daily exercise of 20+ miles, it's just more exercise. However I am already marginal on weight for carrying up stairs with a heavy folder, racks, panniers, trunk bag full of tools and spares, so I'd worry about any weight increase over my 2x7 drivetrain. On a tour with long daily miles, the decrease in efficiency with a Pinion could be an issue.

Oh yes, also, I've gone 100% 20" folding bike for townie and travel, huge advantage, so a question of whether anyone makes a Pinion folder, unless it mounts the same as a mid-drive motor?

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Old 05-13-24, 06:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Duragrouch
An old chain would most probably skip on the gears you *least* frequently use, ....
That is not my experience.

Originally Posted by Duragrouch
... My experience is that the chain beds into the cogs, matching each other. The middle gears get the most use but the low gears get the most torque under climbing and so far it evens out. ....
Bed in to each other, somewhat agree but that is more common on IGH drive trains with sprockets that have an even number of teeth.

Climbing, I am using those sprockets so little that they get little wear.

Originally Posted by Duragrouch
... I tried putting a new chain on the current cassette, too late, skipped, put old chain back on and will replace both when it is time.
It is best to change the chain at 0.75 percent elongation on chains for systems with 10 speed or less, if changing a chain causes your cassette to skip, you either waited too long to change the chain, or maybe you just need a new cassette at that time. By pushing things that far your chain rings get undue wear too.

Some people will rotate chains, use three chains, and keep switching chains so that all three wear about equally until all three have reached 0.75 percent, then change all three chains and one cassette. That system has merit, but is more work than I want to do. I do something similar on my road bike but it is much less work, have two chains and each year in the spring I switch chains, I do not keep track of mileage.

On my other derailleur bikes which all use 8 speed cassettes and chains, I change chains at 0.75 percent elongation, if the cassette skips, change it at that time too.
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Old 05-13-24, 07:09 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
A sequence of events are making me consider the possibility of retiring my LHT for a more recent rig. I came across Panorama cycles, a small manufacturer from my home town with exceptional reviews, and they propose a nice tourer fitted with conventional OR Pinion + Gates drivetrain. First reactions are -- (1) bloody expensive, but great kit (relatively bombproof, low maintenance); (2) 1.18 has reasonable 11% steps (vs 17% for 1.12; vs 6% for my current 3x10). (3) a Pinion-compatible frame is not compatible with other drivetrains (then again, moot point since these drivetrains are expected to last a lifetime).

I'll probably schedule an appointment for a test ride later this year. The idea is slowly percolating. In the meantime I'll read any opinion with considerable interest
Hi there,
I've thought/dreamed of this sort of bike also, and honestly, I would very much prefer the smallest % steps possible, so the 11% of the 18 speed.
On my Troll I recently put my 9 spd 12-27 cassette for lighter load riding bikepacking setup and I've been out for two weekends now with it and it is so much nicer than the 11-34 9 spd cassette for slightly faster riding with a lot less weight than four panniers--I remember clearly your custom cassette setup that has even closer steps than my 12-27 9 speed, so I know you love that.

its always about compromise isnt it? But for my view, if the carried weight on the bike is kept low, having tighter shifts and maybe a less low first gear is great--but I guess it depends on the weight on the bike and the terrain too.
In Scotland last year, even with a less heavy load when bikepacking, I still really, really, really appreciated the 11-34 cassette on the Troll, both on road and off.
Yesterday on a two day trip up near Tremblant, I had a very light load (didnt weigh it ) and was able to get up a 15% paved short hill with the 12-27

looked up the gear inches 12-27 and 2.1 inch tires with 44/32/22 gives 21-95 gear inches
11-34 with 2.1 gives about 17-104 gear inches

cheers
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Old 05-13-24, 07:29 AM
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Yeah... I think I'm coming to my senses and will not follow through. It's a bit like malaria (from what I hear -- I haven't contracted the disease) : every once in a while I get IGH fever. Typically shoulder season.

Yesterday I ran a spreadsheet -- under what seems to be reasonable assumptions it would take 10 years to recover the investment. So, I wish I were younger Spending a little more time fine-tuning my drivetrain I was able to get it back to reasonable shifting performance; I might replace the shifter cable to see if it makes a material difference (a few gears need "encouragement" to engage; i.e. pushing the trigger above click). And component prices are apparently falling back to Earth. So... I'll see at the end of the summer, most likely will test-ride the Panorama cycle's Boreal and see if the fever comes back
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Old 05-13-24, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Yeah... I think I'm coming to my senses and will not follow through. It's a bit like malaria (from what I hear -- I haven't contracted the disease) : every once in a while I get IGH fever. Typically shoulder season.

Yesterday I ran a spreadsheet -- under what seems to be reasonable assumptions it would take 10 years to recover the investment. So, I wish I were younger Spending a little more time fine-tuning my drivetrain I was able to get it back to reasonable shifting performance; I might replace the shifter cable to see if it makes a material difference (a few gears need "encouragement" to engage; i.e. pushing the trigger above click). And component prices are apparently falling back to Earth. So... I'll see at the end of the summer, most likely will test-ride the Panorama cycle's Boreal and see if the fever comes back
for me the attraction is a belt--no chain cleaning, lubing, getting crap all over it etc etc. In really dirty conditions this really does seem like it would be great, and like any IGH thing, no worrying about damaging a rear derailleur or hanger---but $ $ $ and a few other things......

fun to dream and talk about though.
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Old 05-13-24, 07:52 AM
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no tent, sleeping bag etc, only minimal clothes, but all the rain gear (luckily avoided any rain though)
mostly cool riding, but nice
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Old 05-13-24, 11:02 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
... I might replace the shifter cable to see if it makes a material difference (a few gears need "encouragement" to engage; i.e. pushing the trigger above click). And component prices are apparently falling back to Earth. So... I'll see at the end of the summer, most likely will test-ride the Panorama cycle's Boreal and see if the fever comes back
If you have bare cables along the downtube, one other possibility. On one of my bikes with cable stops and bare shifter cables on the downtube, when I tried to get my shifting to be less sticky, I discovered that too much gravel trail riding resulted in a lot of dust that had accumulated on the bare cable and had been drawn into the cable housing. That created a lot of friction.
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Old 05-13-24, 11:31 AM
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I was able to purchase my Co-Motion Pangea Rohloff due to a rather large Windfall. I had followed articles on the web since the early 2000s about the Rohloff hub. I believe gates belts for bicycles showed up around 2007. I had only seen one Rohloff hub on a bike parked at a gym, pryor to my purchase. I contacted Co-Motion late 2013 about a bicycle and they refered me to the shop were I was fitted for and ordered my bicycle. I was able to pick up my bicycle early March 2014. The shop had ignored my request to wire the front brake to the right brake lever. They ignored my request for Cliffhanger rims, They cut the fork tube down so there was only 75mm stack height. I rewired the brakes the next day. I found some new no longer manufactured Velocity psycho rims online and replaced the Aeroheat rims that were on the bicycle. Because they don't make fork strechers I use a Ritchey adjustable stem. It became obvious that there was a communication problem with these people. You would think that A high end bicycle shop would pay attention to detailes better than the drive thru at Dell Taco.

I like and use my custom bicycle. I wouldn't ride anything else if I wase paid to do so. Unlike my previous bicycles it is clean and easier to maintain. If I had to do what I did over to get this bicycle, I would order a bicycle from europe. Internal geared setups with belts are not that expensive in europe and Priority Bicycle out of New York produces over 12 modeles that are belt drive only. Three of them have the Pinion 12 speed. I say quit jawing about it and purchase an internal geared setup with a belt.
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Old 05-14-24, 11:25 AM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
Yeah... I think I'm coming to my senses and will not follow through. It's a bit like malaria (from what I hear -- I haven't contracted the disease) : every once in a while I get IGH fever. Typically shoulder season.

Yesterday I ran a spreadsheet -- under what seems to be reasonable assumptions it would take 10 years to recover the investment. So, I wish I were younger Spending a little more time fine-tuning my drivetrain I was able to get it back to reasonable shifting performance; I might replace the shifter cable to see if it makes a material difference (a few gears need "encouragement" to engage; i.e. pushing the trigger above click). And component prices are apparently falling back to Earth. So... I'll see at the end of the summer, most likely will test-ride the Panorama cycle's Boreal and see if the fever comes back
If you can afford it I highly recommend the Pinion. Best bike money I have spent.
Remember, Memento Mori…
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Old 05-14-24, 01:06 PM
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see... just like malaria... fever is up again
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Old 05-14-24, 04:08 PM
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Originally Posted by gauvins
see... just like malaria... fever is up again
Do they ever have sales? Or do you not have that much patience?
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Old 05-14-24, 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN
Do they ever have sales? Or do you not have that much patience?
Actually never saw any IGH on sale. Just a few showing up on eBay, usually very close to retail.

AFAIK, the retail market went crazy in 2020-2021 (demand up as people no longer wanted to take buses, supply down due to supply chain paralysis in 2020, incredible increase in container prices, etc); Followed by a major contraction -- no surprise here. But also a major shift towards eBikes (for instance, I see lots of content linking Pinion to eBikes -- including motor integration).

So for the Pinion bikes themselves, I don't expect significant inflation. Perhaps fire sales if a manufacturer fears that the end is near (who went bankrupt recently?) I keep an eye.
For components, prices should level if not go down. Although price decreases in the absence of competition are rare...

So... I am still poking the piñata of opinions. And you know what, so far unanimously in favor of Pinions. Perhaps stronger feeling than towards Rohloff. Interesting.

I'll have to take quinine
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