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Originally Posted by Prowler
(Post 23273050)
Keep in mind that the C&O is a historic path that was the Grand Old Ditch built almost 200 years ago. The path for small boys and mules. The NPS has to walk that fine line between historic preservation and public demand for “nice and smooth place to ride bicycles”. I can understand the much more primitive surface of the C&O in places. But, for me, it’s harder to ride. There is probably no best answer.
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Originally Posted by merlinextraligh
(Post 23276696)
That, however, does not explain the NPS’s half ass band aid solutions to the areas that repeatedly wash out. When I did the C&O a few years ago, there were several sections that were simply dangerous where the trail had been washed away by streams without adequate drainage. The NPS solution to fill them with very large rocks created a dangerous situation. I think the NPS’s problem is more a lack of funding.
https://thehill.com/opinion/energy-e...reaking-point/ |
Their guidelines are to preserve the trail surface as it was during the canal operation. That, however, does not explain the NPS’s half ass band aid solutions to the areas that repeatedly wash out...I think the NPS’s problem is more a lack of funding. Time and again it's been shown that the least impact & lowest maintenance cost is a hard surface with engineered drainage. Otherwise, the mud holes get wider, the ruts get deeper, erosion is continuous and the washouts are eternal. |
Originally Posted by tcs
(Post 23276846)
Preserve the trail surface, okay. In many of the images I see from the C&O, clearance between the canal and the trail surface for a tow rope is not maintained. Their definition of "canal operation" seems arbitrary.
. All that being said, I am still amazed when I hear people telling horror stories of the path when wet. I did it during a hurricane that was hitting DC. As a result, we had torrential downpours while on the trail. I used Continental City Contacts for the ride and had zero issues. The surface gave decent traction despite being soaked, and having standing water. Many of the horror stories came from people riding with no fenders. I believe a lot of the negativity is a perception based on the mess and aggravation caused by the lack of fenders. When one is wet and muddy, your perception will never be positive, unless that is your type of thing. I still tend to prefer the C&O over the GAP, which is the trail I ride frequently. I wish the C&O were closer so I could ride it more. |
Originally Posted by phughes
(Post 23276973)
...
..., I am still amazed when I hear people telling horror stories of the path when wet. I did it during a hurricane that was hitting DC. As a result, we had torrential downpours while on the trail. I used Continental City Contacts for the ride and had zero issues. The surface gave decent traction despite being soaked, and having standing water. Many of the horror stories came from people riding with no fenders. I believe a lot of the negativity is a perception based on the mess and aggravation caused by the lack of fenders. When one is wet and muddy, your perception will never be positive, unless that is your type of thing. I still tend to prefer the C&O over the GAP, which is the trail I ride frequently. I wish the C&O were closer so I could ride it more. The C&O puddles had a solid firm surface under the water, I rolled through quickly and did not get bogged down in mud. I only rode both trails once, that was 11 years ago. But I clearly remember being surprised how firm the underlying soil surface on the C&O felt given the conditions. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6858650e0c.jpg I had fenders, my touring partner with the red jersey in the above photo did not. That was his last tour without fenders, since then he has toured with fenders. His bike is in the photo below on our GAP and C&O tour. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f5af318245.jpg Since I have not been there for over a decade, things may have changed since my tour. |
When I did the C&O, I noticed little puddles, even on elevated sections where one would have expected them to drain. I am not a soil scientist, but I suspect that there is a lot of impermeable clay in the surface. They would have used clay to line the canal. If the NPS is maintaining historical integrity by using clay on the towpath (now, walking and biking path) it will always be muddy.
One thing we can do to help them and ourselves is to lubricate the hiker biker pumps that access that delicious iodinated water. A little Trip-Flow helps the water flow. |
What I liked about the GAP was the industrial and labor history near Pittsburgh, the mining memorials and other remnants of our industrial and coal-fueled past. The GAP is a rolling history lesson in many ways. Plus the tunnels and bridges were very cool too; I'm always amazed at human ingenuity.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...67ede49722.jpg https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...db7697bd74.jpg I also liked that I could fly my drone on the GAP. Can't fly on the C&O. https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...22f14be141.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7dbea1f606.jpg And the bridges and tunnels too. Lots of interesting things to observe ponder. Here's Chapter 3 of my trip, from Ohiopyle to Meyersdale. |
Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 23306490)
I also liked that I could fly my drone on the GAP. Can't fly on the C&O.
But then we did not get the awesome pix that you have posted, back in those troglodyte days. |
Originally Posted by ignant666
(Post 23306546)
Life was so much simpler in the olden days, when we did not have to worry about our drone rights (and/or pesky woodland cover obstructing drone photography).
But then we did not get the awesome pix that you have posted, back in those troglodyte days. |
Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 23306490)
What I liked about the GAP was the industrial and labor history near Pittsburgh, the mining memorials and other remnants of our industrial and coal-fueled past. The GAP is a rolling history lesson in many ways. Plus the tunnels and bridges were very cool too; I'm always amazed at human ingenuity.
... And the bridges and tunnels too. Lots of interesting things to observe ponder. ... ~~~ For fifty years, Pennsylvania's steel industry depended to an amazing extent on a skinny strip of land, scarcely two or three miles wide, running some fifty miles through Westmoreland and Fayette counties in southwestern Pennsylvania. Here, a seven-foot-thick seam of high-quality coal poked up its head, ready to be carted away and baked into coke, a valuable industrial fuel. At its peak in 1913, the Connellsville district's 38,000 ovens provided fully half the entire nation's supply of metallurgical coke. It took 2,000 railcars each day to haul it away. Most of the coke was used in blast furnaces to smelt iron ore into molten pig iron, the raw material for steel. |
Originally Posted by rm -rf
(Post 23313385)
I saw the mention of the coke ovens along the trail. 38,000 of them! The area must have been a nightmare of smoke, eroding land, and coal waste. It's hard to believe now.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...355c57993.jpeg |
Originally Posted by indyfabz
(Post 23313687)
Polluted water flowing out of abandoned mine shafts in the hills above the trail and into the river.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...355c57993.jpeg
Originally Posted by rm -rf
(Post 23313385)
I saw the mention of the coke ovens along the trail. 38,000 of them! The area must have been a nightmare of smoke, eroding land, and coal waste. It's hard to believe now.
~~~ For fifty years, Pennsylvania's steel industry depended to an amazing extent on a skinny strip of land, scarcely two or three miles wide, running some fifty miles through Westmoreland and Fayette counties in southwestern Pennsylvania. Here, a seven-foot-thick seam of high-quality coal poked up its head, ready to be carted away and baked into coke, a valuable industrial fuel. At its peak in 1913, the Connellsville district's 38,000 ovens provided fully half the entire nation's supply of metallurgical coke. It took 2,000 railcars each day to haul it away. Most of the coke was used in blast furnaces to smelt iron ore into molten pig iron, the raw material for steel. https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...51ea362740.jpg St. Nicholas Coal Breaker https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...673641f640.jpg Pennhurst Power Plant https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...eeca7dc14e.jpg Scranton Lace Factory It's within this context that the Great Allegheny Passage trail should be viewed as a glimmer of hope for a better future. It took decades to build and it's now a destination for cyclists from around the country. For a state that's seen better days, it's a small but significant victory. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...68e5b3ef1c.jpg Morguen Toole Co Hotel, Meyersdale, Pennsylvania https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...9a255c37b3.jpg Keystone Viaduct https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...6be2a02239.jpg Eastern Continental Divide https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...03b185a5a2.jpg Mason-Dixon Line https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...2768e447eb.jpg Mile 0, Great Allegheny Passage, Cumberland, Maryland https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...e975845a6f.jpg Mile 0, Great Allegheny Passage, Cumberland, Maryland Here's my video of the last stretch of the GAP, from Meyersdale to Cumberland, Maryland where the GAP and C&O meet. |
Some of that development you pass on the South Side of PGH while riding out of town used to be the site of the J&L Steel plant. I remember when they were leveling the site while I was in law school in the late 80s.
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Originally Posted by indyfabz
(Post 23322122)
Some of that development you pass on the South Side of PGH while riding out of town used to be the site of the J&L Steel plant. I remember when they were leveling the site while I was in law school in the late 80s.
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...c5307459c8.jpg |
at one point Pittsburgh was the steel capital of the world
the birth of the commercial oil industry was just north of Pittsburgh in the Oil City / Titusville area - can still see remnants when traveling on the Oil Creek State Park trail and the Allegheny River trail … the Drake Well museum (northern end of the Oil Creek State Park trail) in Oil City has some neat stuff … also has a running train / rail road https://www.traillink.com/trail/oil-...te-park-trail/ . |
While the GAP and C&O trails are connected in Cumberland, Maryland, they are very different trails. One follows old rail lines, the other follows an old canal. One was a decades-long effort to create, the other was designated a National Monument in 1961 by President Eisenhower and a National Historic Part in 1971 by President Nixon. The C&O leaving Cumberland Maryland feels much more remote. And much muddier too. Both great trails.
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f12812304c.jpg Cumberland, MD https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...edd466b079.jpg Along the C&O https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3c22ab0d15.jpg Along the C&O https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4e34c59afb.jpg Along the C&O https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...03662cd622.jpg Along the C&O https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4cbef2d16d.jpg Pigman's Ferry Hiker Biker Campsite |
They definitely are completely different. I like both, but when I last did the entire route, I enjoyed the C&O more. It is difficult to say exactly why, but I just liked the trail vs the limestone. It may be because I live close enough to the GAP that I ride it more, but overall the monotony of the GAP wore on me. Once I was on the C&O it just seemed more picturesque if you will.
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Originally Posted by phughes
(Post 23603060)
They definitely are completely different. I like both, but when I last did the entire route, I enjoyed the C&O more. It is difficult to say exactly why, but I just liked the trail vs the limestone. It may be because I live close enough to the GAP that I ride it more, but overall the monotony of the GAP wore on me. Once I was on the C&O it just seemed more picturesque if you will.
This was my first time on the GAP/C&O and I was a bit surprised at how different they were. Can't say that I preferred one over the other, but I did appreciate that they were different and that things changed along the trip. |
Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 23603501)
This was my first time on the GAP/C&O and I was a bit surprised at how different they were. Can't say that I preferred one over the other, but I did appreciate that they were different and that things changed along the trip.
But in planning the trip, I knew that one was predominantly tow path for a canal, thus mostly flat except at lock and dams where you have a sudden change in elevation. And the other was rail. And I had read that you spent a lot of time pedaling up a long hill (when east bound) even though the hill was flat enough that you did not notice it. Thus, I knew they were different, I just did not expect them to be as different as they actually were. That was only my third bike tour, so I was still on the steep part of the learning curve. |
Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 23603501)
This was my first time on the GAP/C&O and I was a bit surprised at how different they were. Can't say that I preferred one over the other, but I did appreciate that they were different and that things changed along the trip.
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Originally Posted by john m flores
(Post 23603501)
This was my first time on the GAP/C&O and I was a bit surprised at how different they were. Can't say that I preferred one over the other, but I did appreciate that they were different and that things changed along the trip.
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Last year a friend and I mixed some GAP riding with 35 miles on the Ghost Town Trail from Ebensburg PA to Back Lick, north of the GAP. (Journal writeup here.)
Very enjoyable mix (kind of like a blend of the Towpath and the GAP) of history and rural riding, though 1 mile or so in the middle was still in bad shape from floods and may be worse (or better!) now. Frequent rest stops with lots of railroad, coal mining history and environmental impact, floods, etc. |
Originally Posted by indyfabz
(Post 23603674)
Did you take the short detour from the GAP to see Buffalo Bill’s house from The Silence of the Lambs? I finally remembered in 2019. It’s now a rental property.
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Day 2 of the C&O (eastbound) is posted
Day two on the Chesapeake & Ohio (C&O) Trail, from the Pigman's Ferry Hiker-Biker campground to the White Rock Hiker-Biker campground. After a mellow morning, I stop in Paw Paw, West Virginia before tacking the famous Paw Paw Tunnel, The afternoon features some obstacles and a cool relic from the past. A little less muddy than the first afternoon on the C&O, thankfully. https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a079493ca4.jpg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d27c2275b4.jpg https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...073a3e5ef3.jpg https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0581d0615d.jpg Paw Paw Tunnel https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a6df887814.jpg Inside the Paw Paw Tunnel https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7b2cb7805a.jpg Paw Paw Tunnel https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0dbdad53d0.jpg https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...1238c6908d.jpg |
The GAP and C&O are national treasures! Thanks for your write-ups and videos, I used them to convince my riding buddies to make the GAP and C&O our 1 week tour this year. We all enjoyed it. We all anticipated the C&O being much rougher than it was but we only had one morning of rain and somehow missed the downpour that caught others the same day.
All that have enjoyed these trails and are able could help ensure they will be available for future generations by making a contribution to one of the several non-profits involved in maintaining these trails for the benefit of all. I'm making a contribution to the Great Allegheny Passage Conservancy. I sometimes sense that there are some on this forum that take for granted the fact that such amazing resources are available to us with almost no thought as to the tremendous effort and cost incurred by others to make these happen and then continue to maintain them. The attitude that all of this is "free" and easily found on the internet so I don't need - fill in the blank - is so disheartening. Let them die, they are useless, what do they do for ME? NO NO NO, all of this is there for you because of their efforts (unappreciated, evidently). What they have created will eventually die and go away without our continued support. I'd hate to see these trails become overgrown, eroded trash heaps even though I may not ride them again myself. |
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