Touring Clydesdale
 

I waver between 230-240 lbs, or average 106 kg. My current touring bike is a Miyata 610 that came with 27" wheels. The Miyata frame will allow 38mm tires easily and the Dia Compe 980 cantis will allow for 700c conversion. I'd like to go that route for convenience of tire options. In all reality, my tours will never be more than 5 days in length, but I would like to tour with tent, sleeping bag, and a modest kit. Most of my outdoor gear is lightweight/ultralight, and I'm comfortable with minimum equipment as well. While I'm thinking I should probably build a 36H wheelset, options are limited for 36H, tubeless ready rims with moderately wide internal rim widths (17-19mm). The VO Voyager and Velocity Cliffhanger rim's internal diameters are too wide for the tire width I can run, at least according to manufacturer's recommendations. I've looked at the Velocity A23s, but have read far too many reports of the spoke nipples pulling through the rim, it's not something I want to risk.

Now when I look at 32H, tubeless ready rim options, it opens the door to Crust's rim brake rims, DT Swiss R460/ RR411/ RR511, Kinlin XR26/ XR31, Boyd Altamont, Mavic Open Pro, and I'm sure more I haven't come across.

I do like gravel roads, but I don't get too rowdy. I also can't see total weight ever being over 280 pounds between rider and gear.

So my question is could I realistically get away with 32H wheel build? Or should I stick with 36H and instead look to a tougher tire? Thanks in advance.

I’m sure you have good reason for wanting tubeless, but as I have never gone down that route, I’m not sure of the advantages.

Even though I’m fairly light,170 lbs, and try to keep my gear reasonably light, I have handbuilt 36H wheels with strong rims (Swiss DT TK540, Mavic A719) and butted spokes, (Sapim Race front and Sapim Strong rear).

They are probably overkill bombproof, but worth the cost to me for peace of mind.

edit: Both rims I mentioned have recently been discontinued, but might still be found. I believe Velocity Dyads are popular in the USA, neh?

As to tyres, Schwalbe Marathon Plus are bombproof but heavy. I tried but found they were too bouncy and sluggish. Many swear by them though.

Continental Top Contact II are fantastic tires, but I’m running regular ”Contacts”, very underrated imo, but much cheaper, so can be changed out more often.

When you say Clydesdale, I was expecting 300+. I used to weigh about 205 to 210 before I got diabetes, now about 180 due to change of diet. My point is you are not that much heavier than I was. Nobody accuses me of being an ultralight bike tourist, if you load your bike with extra light gear you might not have much more total weight on your bike than I used to have when I was heavier with my heavier touring load.

I am sticking with tubes. But you are correct, it is getting harder to find good 36 hole rims. And 36 hole hubs for a rim brake bike are also hard to find, you may end up getting a disc brake hub, nothing wrong with that. I am quite happy with the Velocity Dyad rims (36H) I put on my light touring bike with a Shimano XT M756A rear hub. But I try to avoid putting too much weight on that bike, my front wheel is 32, not 36. I run 37mm wide tires on that bike. The front tire is a discontinued model so I won't recommend that model, I use a Schwalbe Mondial (tube type) rear tire on that bike.

When you say 27 inch wheels, that makes me wonder what the dropout spacing on that frame is? I suspect 126mm? I think for a heavy load you want 135mm hubs, not 130mm. There is slightly less dish with 135mm. My rando bike frame is 130mm and I put 135mm rear hub in that frame all the time. It only means I have to pull the stays further apart when I put a wheel in, not really any problem at all, only a small inconvenience that takes a few more seconds to put the wheel in.

Cycocommute (spell?) on this forum often suggests some thicker spokes for touring. Maybe they are DT Alpine? I used to use Wheelsmith spokes on all the wheels that I built, but they went out of business, I have minimal experience with other spokes so I can't make any recommendation based on my experience.

You mention a concern about nipples pulling out of spoke holes. Not sure if nipple washers would help reduce the chance of that or not. I used Sapim nipples on my light touring bike and I used the Sapim nipple washers on the drive side spokes on the rear wheel.

Touring Clyde here, 300+, mostly a rail trail tourer but I ride loaded all the same.
I ride Velocity wheels and managed to crack a Cliffhanger on 40mm tires. They noted that the Cliffhanger isn't set up to run 40s but still seemed surprise at the breakage. They recommended instead that I go with an Aero 700C which is rated for 28-53mm tires. That's what's on the bike now (to be fair, they were installed before the snow flies and have less than 100 miles on them). I had mine drilled for 36 hole/3x up front and 40 hole/4x out back. I don't see that being an option on their website now, but if you email sales@velocityusa.com they may be able to assist you further. I found them very, very helpful.

Not a heavyweight here, but my hand built 36 spoke wheels need a couple of spokes tightened or loosened a quarter to a half turn every couple of years to stay true, so I am a fan. What about wheels for tandems? I would expect some of those are tubeless ready.

[QUOTE=Tourist in MSN;23445014]
When you say 27 inch wheels, that makes me wonder what the dropout spacing on that frame is? I suspect 126mm? I think for a heavy load you want 135mm hubs, not 130mm. There is slightly less dish with 135mm. My rando bike frame is 130mm and I put 135mm rear hub in that frame all the time. It only means I have to pull the stays further apart when I put a wheel in, not really any problem at all, only a small inconvenience that takes a few more seconds to put the wheel in.
/QUOTE]

good point T
Mr Plata, being a 84 bike, the spacing has to be the standard from that time. Even my first touring bike from about 90 or 91 has the older narrower rear spacing.
I recall a long long time ago thinking about upgrading my 91 bike, getting some integrated shifters for 7 speed etc, and at that time I soon figured out that it wasn't worth it for me going down the road of modernizing the bike.
My particular bike had always been a bit flexy with a tournig load, even for a real lightweight like myself (130 back then and maybe 40lbs of load, reduced a bit over the years) so in the end, I just got a modern bike for when I was contemplating all this (must have been 2009) and the new 2010 aluminum bike I got was so much stiffer and handled better than my old bike with a touring load.....

so just saying, be aware of spending a certain amount of money on new wheels with 126mm spacing, but still having a 80s era frame that is never going to be any better than it was 40 years ago, andcertainly not with a heavy ish rider on it etc etc, plus still having dt shifters and very likely 6 speed and a crankset that is over geared and probably has a half step on it (mid ring being close in size to big ring)

it seems to me that picking up a used more modern touring bike might be a very feasible option, especially given that with the great popularity of bikepacking for years now, traditional touring bikes are less sought after, so with some proper and repeated searching, you could find a tough modernish touring bike that you may enjoy a lot more to actually ride and tour on , for not that much more than getting new wheels for a 40 year old bike with its limitations-- but only you know that answer.

good luck

The reason for going tubeless is I live in the US Southwest. There is no shortage of sharp rocks and thorny plants. As I prepare for trying a tour in my state, I wanted a little extra insurance for any thorns, sharp rocks and glass I may encounter. Where I live, I rarely get flats (maybe 5x in the last 7 years). I always ride a tire with a decent puncture protective layer. Lightest tires I've tried are currently on my Ritchey Logic, which are fitted with Rene Herse Stampede Pass endurance casing. So far, so good there, but they haven't seen a lot of road time.

My bike is spaced at 126mm in the rear dropout, but readily accepts a 130mm hub with only the slightest effort. I can't afford a whole new bike spaced for 135mm rear hub. I bought the Miyata for $90, and I love the way it rides: stable and surprisingly snappy. The current wheels are the original Araya rims 27" x 1 1/4" (32-630 ERTRO), 36 spokes, and the Suntour sealed bearing freewheel hubs (awesome hubs BTW). Widest tire I've found are the Swift Tire made by Panaracer which claim 35mm, but I measured them to 32mm. They roll well enough, but a 38mm 700c tire would be better I think.

Thank you for the responses. I knew the answer, but wanted to reach out anyhow. I'm thinking I'll go with my original intention of Sun Ringle CR18 rims and look for solid tires.

Edit: I have modified the bike slightly, mostly the drivetrain. Now running Suntour barcons, and I replaced the chainring combo to a more acceptable 48/36/24. With a 34 in the back, that should get me 19 gear inches (though 18 gear inches would be better). I also replaced the original Suntour Mountech rear derailleur with a Shimano Acera.

In post #4 (a d a m) suggests the Velocity Aero which does come in 36 hole drilling. If I were you, based on what you said about liking your current SunTour sealed bearing hubs would be to rebuild your current hubs up with the current tubeless ready Aero (not the previous one which was narrower & not tubeless ready). This newer rim is listed as having a 23mm internal width which would make for great versatility of tubeless tire options in 700c. Some tubeless 38mm tires would run fine on those rims. Do you have a reputable wheel builder in your town? If you do & you are ok with un-spoking your 27” wheels I suspect your rebuilt SunTour sealed bearing 36 hubs would be a great match for you.
BTW: I have ridden Velocity A23’s for years (tubed) & never had any rim cracks around the spoke holes. I can’t say the same about my old DT Swiss RR 1.1’s which were known to crack & fail.
If you have been waiting for an opportunity to deploy some tubeless tires on a custom (for you) vintage wheelset, this sounds like a perfect application. If you read up on the current Velocity Aero rim, it sounds like they contracted an aluminum supplier that makes this extrusion in a grade higher than 7000 series & they are said to be plenty strong. So long as your custom wheel builder is sensible about bringing up the spoke tension gradually & properly stress relieving it as they progress- the wheels should hold up to loaded touring @ your body weight just fine.
The only downside would be the price of the rims, spokes, nipples & wheel build labor….I imagine you are looking & ~$600ish to make it happen (before 38mm tubeless tires, valves, sealant & tubeless rim tape). If it were me, I would do it for sure. I weigh ~195 BTW.

For what it is worth, I weigh more than the OP and have been known to carry some gear.

On a trip across Canada, I broke three 36-spoke wheels. So after that, I switched to try 48-spoke wheels. That was generally working better though after a fair amount of use (e.g. >10,000 miles) I had some Phil Woods hub issues with pawls getting stuck open. I have since experimented with some other hubs. As an example, last year I renewed my Trek 520 48-spoke rear wheel with Cliffhanger Rim and White Industries Mi5 hub. It has been doing fine since. I have a new bike coming and the wheels I've picked are 40-spoke Cliffhanger rims with White Industry XMR hubs. My mountain bike shown below was a 40-spoke rear wheel/hub. This was in Cartagena (after coming from San Diego with a new wheel) and no wheel issues from there to Ushuaia.
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...bf3ef66f59.jpg

I would actually like to re-use the current hubs as they are great quality. I had a mechanic offer to buy them off me. They also they roll quiet. I only hear the wind and the tires on pavement when coasting. As they are 36H and I own them, it would be an easy way to save money. But the talk about spoke tension on the narrower hub does have me looking into going with 130mm hubs. I can slide in a 130mm hub easily enough. The 105 5800 series isn't too expensive, and comes in 36H version as well, it's just the silver color is hard to come by.

The Velocity Aero rims are disc only. The Aileron is the rim brake version of the Aero, and look slick, but are indeed pricey. I do see the beefy Velocity NoBS rims, which weigh a good amount, but appear to be stouter than the Dyads, and the narrow internal rim width version of the Cliffhanger. So that may be an option. But I know the Sun Ringle CR18 have a strong reputation, are lighter, and less expensive.

Decisions. Decisions.

Again, thanks to everyone for their input. Giving me a lot to think about.

It will be very easy to put a 130mm hub into a steel frame that is spaced at 126mm. I suggested 135mm, but a 130mm would be better than a 126mm freewheel type hub, so go with the 130mm and see how that works. A lot of people have crossed the country with a 130mm hub.

The freewheel type hubs have weaker axles than freehub type hubs. I say that in a very generic way, I have not worked on a Suntour rear hub. The freehub type hubs put the drive side bearing closer to the frame dropout, that is the reason for a stronger hub. I have bent freewheel type hub axles. But I have never had a problem with a freehub type hub in handling the weight.

I assume you would go with an eight speed cassette if you go with a 130mm hub. There are good Shimano, Sram and third party cassettes. I use Sram 850 eight speed 11/32 cassettes, but the biggest sprocket is only 32, if you want more teeth you would need a different brand of cassette.

LaPlataPig - I guess I mis-spoke about the Aero rim being disc only - thanks for the correction. The thing is... the Aileron is also disc only. The Quill is for rim brake. It would work for you, that is if it is available in 36. I hear what you are saying about wanting the 130mm hub. Really the difference in strength I don't think is so much about the axle length it is that the bearing placement with a freewheel hub is much narrower making the axle less supported on the freewheel hub. Freehub designs place the outer bearings in a cup on the outside of the cassette and are thus more rigid and less susceptible to bending. But I have to ask - did you ever bend an axle on your current hub? Back in the day when I rode my freewheel only bikes I never had a problem with bending or breaking an axle.

Update: the Quill does come in a 36 hole. I have a fast road wheelset with Dura Ace 7800 front 24 spoke and Dura Ace 7850 rear 28 spoke both laced up 3x with lightweight DT Swiss butted spokes front and standard butted DT Swiss spokes rear. These wheels have Panaracer Agilest TLR front and Panaracer Agilest Duro TLR rear. These are smooth tread tires that have tons of grip and are super fast. Not really for loaded touring but man they are great.

LaPlatapig, I have owned two Miyata 610 bikes and still have a Miyata 1000. The conversion to 700 is possible, however before you commit to it, put a 700 wheel in the fork and in the rear triangle and adjust the brakes to the rims to be sure it will be satisfactory.
My current body weight, fully unclothed, is 230.5lbs. I currently use Suntour sealed hubs, the old freewheel type that have a sticker on the body stating "Sealed Bearing". Originally designed for off-road bikes, and I did harvest them from a Miyata Ridge Runner way back when. The spokes are DT Swiss straight gauge laced to Velocity Dyad rims (previously known as Aeroheat). They are 36 hole, and I built the wheels myself. They are absolutely bombproof. Been running them for almost 10 years and touched them up once in all that time.
I replaced the axle with a Wheels Manufacturing axle that I cut to length, and was able to space the hub to 135mm. The really neat thing is the spoke length on each side of the wheel is the same and there is little to no dish. The 610/615 frame can easily be reset to accommodate a 135 spaced hub. I have done it a few times without issue.
As I first stated, do borrow a set of 700 wheels and set the brakes to them before you go whole hog into it.
My observation on tire width, 32 is enough to tour on, but the rear will wear much more quickly than a 38. 38 is what I have used for the past 15 years. Before that it was 32. There is a noticeable difference in rolling resistance and acceleration when the bike is unloaded, but once loaded up the difference is gone.

Another thing you might consider is an internal geared hub or bottom bracket (Rolloff and Pinion come to mind). With no cluster/freewheel needed, the rear wheel doesn't need to be dished, and thus will be stronger.

good points Ti, and for Laplata feller---

years ago a friend did a 27 to 700 conversion with his wifes old old 80s bike and it worked out fine--but as you say, that's my understanding also--that it can depend on where the brake bosses are and or the type of cantis. Again, it wasnt me who did it, but have read how it can work well with some frames, but less so with others.

re tire sizes. Ive toured on 28s to 50s, and I can say with certainty that wider tires with less pressure have a few advantages, and one of them is making life easier on the wheelset, the spokes and rims, just because of more cushion and shock absorption when you dont overdo the pressures, transmitting a lot less forces into the wheels.
Yes, I'm a lot lot lighter than you guys, but wider tires made a big difference for my touring over all kinds of rough paved roads in Latin America and I'm convinced helped my 26in 32 spoke rims survive a few big hits pretty well when carrying quite a crapload of stuff on these long trips (spare this, spare that, more water than usual etc)

That's good to hear about the hubs (those are the hubs I have as well) and Dyad rims. I do have a spare set of old beater 700c wheels (Formula CXR-330 wheelset from a 2006 Fuji Roubaix) that I have already tested with the hub spacing and brakes and it all fits. Though the front brake pads are bottomed out along the brake post track, they will work.

I don't understand your comments about those rims being too wide for the tire width you can run.

First, a Velocity Quill rim comes in 36h, is tubeless, and rim brake. Another option is Velocity A23OC.

But the 2 rims you mentioned, Velocity cliffhanger and VO Voyager, can both handle 38mm tires without issue. A 38mm tire is completely safe to run on either of those rim widths.
The manufacturer recommended width is not the only allowed width range.
I wouldn't think twice about running 38mm tires on those rims.

Need to add a couple cents to the topic of rim width and compatible tire width. On a commuter bike I ran the almost indestructible Araya DP18 rim in 32 hole configuration. I used 38mm tires, Continental brand. Ran that bike for about 15 years that way and never had any issues with it. Also set up a customer on the Velocity Deep V rims with the same tire, except it was on an upright Specialized comfort bike. Never had any issues outside of a broken axle. He used that bike until the day before he died and I imagine it is still going. The axle that broke was the alloy one in a Velocity hub. They stitched the wrong hub to the wheels when I ordered them. Replaced with a steel axle.

I think way too much effort is put into optimizing rim width to tire width.

Laplata and others, I have toured and ridden on old school mtb disc rims with 17mm ish inner width on my Surly Troll for years, on tires from 1.5in to 2.1 inches (roughly 37-53mm)
With 2in slicks, 50mm but on these narrow rims the actual tire width is a bit over 45mm, I have spent months touring with four panniers etc etc with at times probably 50lbs load or more when carrying lots of water and spare food.
Yes, proper pressures play a big part in feeling a tire move around too much in corners, but at the sweet spot of pressure for my weight combined with load weight, the 2in slicks have been amazing going around corners very fast, even loaded up fairly heavily.

my understanding is that this internal width of mtb rims was very common and 2.1 mtb tires were super common and pretty universally used by millions of mountain bikers hammering the heck out of their bikes.

to take with a grain of salt, but this WTB rim tire graph is at least one manufacturers official reference
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...0199ef0aac.png

The suggestion for a Rohloff or Pinion drivetrain, the Pinion means a different frame. I suspect the Rohloff is not in your budget.

I think you need to decide first if you want to stick with tubeless or not since the rim selection is part of that choice. As I mentioned above, I am staying with tubes and I like the Dyad rims on my light touring bike. But the Dyad is not the right rim if you keep planning for tubeless. Once you firm up your choice for tubeless or not, then the rest of your choices should fall into place.

If you are going to get (or build) a wheel with standard 14 gauge spokes (2.0mm), no, you can’t “get away” with a 32 hole wheel for touring. It’s questionable that you could get away with a 36 hole wheel with 2.0mm spokes.

The best option is to use DT Swiss Alpine III spokes which are 2.3/18/2.0mm spokes. The stronger head significantly increases durability of wheels and spokes. This article details why to use these spokes. You could probably use a 32 hole rim with the Alpine spokes for touring but a 36 spoke wheel will be much stronger and durable. As pointed out, there are tubeless ready rims available from Velocity in 36 hole drillings.

What does this mean?
Are shaded squares ideal, dots acceptable, and blanks unacceptable?



Regardless, it would be simply bonkers if anyone seriously claimed it is not safe to use a 38mm tire on a rim that is 30mm external and 25mm internal width.
Since that is the widest rim being discussed, all others are totally safe too.

There is no way at that weight that I would use anything less than 36 spoke wheels, even with the Alpine spokes. I tour with some "bigger boys" and have seen 32 spoked rear wheels create way too many problems. End of story.

I've had that chart screenshot kicking around for a few years as a reference, here is the meaning of the symbols. I probably didnt screenshot it because it didnt fit on the computer screen.
and yes, a 25nn internal rim is complete overkill, or rather totally fine for a 38 or much wider, as my extensive real world touring experience with much narrower rims and much wider tires proves.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...3fc1ee9c65.png