Thanks to everyone for keeping a civil keyboard (tongue) as it is nice to share info and opinions based on experience without getting the hair on our necks in a knot. From my bicycle only days when I had no choice other than travel in every conceivable type of weather, I do not ride in torrential downpours or white-outs. It is not safe. There may come a time when I decide to move to waterproof bags, but I haven't needed them over the multiple decades of commuting and touring (started touring in 1977, serious commuter in 1983). I imagine somehow I will survive if I don't go the waterproof route. Maybe when I get a newer car, if the Volvo wears out.

Just to add another data point, we're testing out these Arkel Dry-Lite panniers. Like other Arkel products, the bottom is secured with a hook connected to a piece of bungee cord. But instead of hooks that clip to the top rail of a rack, they sit more like saddlebags with adjustable straps that reach over the top of the rack.


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a30847f1e7.jpg

Here's a photo from their website of the straps that connect the two bags and sit on top of the rack.

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4e7d9236db.jpg

It's a super simple system and since there are no clips or hooks or mechanisms to attach to the top rail of the rack, there's no rattling. We rode some trails with fist-sized rocks last weekend and the bags didn't budge.

:thumb:

I have a pair of Front-Roller Plus' and pair of Back-Roller Plus' (some intermediary version of QL2-QL2.1).
The newest version panniers have numerous improvements to the previous generations.

Ortlieb has made upgrades to the various hardware components and I specifically recall reading about a new plastic formulation that addresses the rack abrasion/paint damage issue. For the current incarnation of Sport-Rollers their website states, "new Anti-Scratch Upper hooks, lower hook, lower hook rail".

Here's the ad copy for the new Lower Hook: "If the lower locking hook of your Quick-Lock2.2 system breaks or goes missing, this spare part provides an easy replacement. Designed for compatibility, the QL2.2 locking hook not only fits bags with the Quick-Lock2.2 system but can also be retrofitted onto bags with older mounting systems. With an adjustable range of 10-18 mm, this lower QL2.2 locking hook offers greater flexibility than its predecessors. Additionally, it features an anti-scratch coating at the contact points, helping to protect your gear and bike frame from wear and tear."

I got a couple of those as well, used today for the first time.

My back rollers have an older version of the Stealth auxiliary strap (it's the strap that's attached to the face fabric with a screw and it wraps over the top of the bag's rolled closure and clips to a female buckle located in the middle of the bag's upper rail. That female buckle is attached via a very short piece of thin webbing so it flops around and inevitably falls down into the small gap between the pannier and the rack, requiring me to try and get my finger down in the small gap and fish it out in order to be able to clip it. It's my most used closure method 80% of the time (urban use, errands commuting, grocery shopping, etc.).
The newest version 'Stealth auxiliary closure strap QL2.1, black' (https://us.ortlieb.com/products/stea...ap-ql2-1-black) is redesigned and they eliminated the webbing so the previously floppy female buckle is now rigid, mounted to short stiff plastic stalk, is always accessible, is oriented vertically and slightly angled to ergonomically receive the male buckle. I bought a couple of the new Stealth Auxiliary straps and used it for the first time this week. The 'lost' female buckle problem is now history.

There's a bunch of other improvements. I wasn't aware that they sell an accessory locking upper hook with a key (QL-2) that locks the pannier to the rack, including a keyed-alike pair version (https://us.ortlieb.com/products/ql2-lock).

Thanks for the assist! That's the guy! Man there is a TON of useful info on that blog. Almost didn't get there, it tried to cookie-wall me.

Tourist in MSN : I've seen your pannier setup before in your other posts. I love my Jandd trunk bag (big expandable one, ex-police found at goodwill), but that rear racktop bag sure does make sense instead of that, if the panniers are high enough to stabilize it. I like the panniers on the lower rack tier, but they should be that high when full. I'll just have a rigger's bag or something similar with tons of compartments, for all my tools and spares inside the racktop bag.

At one time, Ortliebs seemed expensive to me (my other panniers are ancient Nashbar, and used REIs that were returned and cheap), and copies are priced at half, but the actual cost delta isn't that much, worth it for a tour. I'll just wait until needed, and put the townie wear on my old ones.

I am wondering now, why caring around pannier covers (additional weight and volume) and not buying waterproof panniers at first.

Well, waterproof panniers are considerably heavier and more expensive. Covers weigh next to nothing, I don't think they are an issue unless the rider also counts the toothbrush bristles.
Some people simply do not ride in the rain, do not need waterproof gear and feel perfectly fine when they return from their tours with non-waterproof panniers. There isn't much to understand or not understand.

On a related note: Some people wonder why on Earth I don't tour in cycling shoes with stiff soles. Some people wonder why on Earth I don't tour in sandals. It's a conundrum, this world, really. :)

My experience with pannier covers is that they are useless, because they are open to the inside facing the wheel, so water saturates the inboard side and then seeps into the rest, plus, the cover collects water in the bottom, which then attacks the pannier from that direction. They just don't work.

That strap that goes over the top of the older Backrollers and Frontrollers, the part of that strap that went under the rail for the upper hooks was quite weak, made of fabric. On my Backrollers, one of those tore off my bike a couple years ago. I replaced it with some strap material when I got home and attached it to the pannier at the location of the screws that held the pannier rail to the pannier. But a stiffer piece of plastic like you described makes a lot of sense. My repair in photo below:

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b819a22f70.jpg

Since I use that strap on my Frontrollers to hold my rain gear on my panniers, I have been planning to add my reinforcement to my Frontrollers too, I have been worrying about losing the use of that strap on them.

Beckman addressed those issues. My stuff stayed dry during 10,000+ miles.

Backrollers and the 31 liter Rack Pack. Rack Pack described here:
https://us.ortlieb.com/products/rack-pack

I did several tours before I realized that I was not doing it right. This is the right way to attach it.

But that also means there is a lot of work to do if I want to get something out of a rear pannier during the middle of a ride. So, I have to plan packing well.

Works best if both rear panniers are packed so that they both are the same height. The 31 liter Rack Pack is essentially a duffle, has no frame to give it shape or structure. When it is only half full, it sags because of that lack of structure. Now I use a sheet of Coroplast inside that gives it more of a cylindrical shape, as shown below.

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7a91bc3b79.jpg

I lowered the rack slightly for use on this bike. The pannier frame at the bottoms of the panniers sit right over the ends of my rear skewer. When touring I use bolt on skewers, not quick release. I did not plan it that way, but I want the center of gravity as low as practical and this is about perfect.

An inch or so above my rear derailleur, so it does not interfere with shifting or impair the derailleur hanger alignment. Thus, that is about as low as it can go with this rack on this bike.

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...37294a3cff.jpg

Well I for one have a complaint. You have sent me back into the rabbit hole of looking for old Volvo 240s for sale. :lol: I've looked before, not long ago actually. Just another car I would like to have, but I don't need a different car.

My 2005 XC-90 is not for sale, so don't bother asking.

:lol: You're safe. If I were to buy one, I would be interested in 70s and 80s era Volvos. The XC-90 is very nice though.

Going slightly off topic here, why does one need to access the rear panniers during the daily ride? Anything I need during the day such as food, medical kit, TP, rain jacket, etc. are carried up front in the fork bags or handle bar bag.

Way off topic here > This is our 3rd 240. First one was foolishly sold for no good reason at all. Just did it and I take all the blame. The second one, which we had simultaneously with the first one, was totaled out by a kid who was going to fast in the snow and lost control and forced me into the barrier. I was able to drive home (5 miles) but after inspection it was apparent the repair would be way too costly and I could replace it for that cost. Number 3 took three years to find. I know these cars fairly well and I know what to look for and am picky. Fortunately I was able to find a low mileage beauty driven by an old lady every once in a while. 37k on the clock when I got it, now it has about 64k. That was 7 years ago this fall. Hopefully it is the last car we ever need to purchase as we are both in our 60's and only use it during summer months. The winter car is a 2013 Camry with 37k on the clock. Just got that this past spring.

Some people will have their rain gear in a rear pannier, or sun screen, or chain lube, or dozens of other things.

When you come out of a grocery store, that is a common time to open up the rear panniers to refill them. But I usually just put groceries in the rack top bag.

I put repair tools at the bottom of my pannier because I almost never use them. But then when something goes wrong, I have to empty my pannier to reach them.

If I'm not carrying a saddle bag, rain gear would be in a pannier too.

That's all I can think of.

Video: B!tchin! Somebody was thinking.

I have tons of small pieces of corroplast, my local asian market tosses veg boxes from it, I lined my left rear pannier with it, have yet to do the rest.

Mine will sit lower; If I toured it would be on 20"/406 wheels, the rear (full-size) rack holds the panniers with fronts even with the rear axle and the deck about 6" above the tire, with the panniers on the lower rack tier (which I love, allows independent access to panniers and trunk bag without them blocking each other), with the bottoms about 8" above the pavement, so they clear curbs nicely when close to them. I do like the lower CG of the whole setup, and the panniers aft like that for great pedaling clearance causes no stability issues at all. I might make use of that space behind the seatpost to hang a long skinny dry bag from the seat rails and a horizontal strap around the post at the bottom, that would be a good day bag:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...7fc84551e1.jpg

I think I am the only one who mentioned opening rear pannier, so this is probably for me to answer.

It's not necessarily rear pannier or any specific bag that I think is especially important, it's just that I personally pack that way.
When I am on a tour, the rear left pannier holds everything I might want during the day that does not belong in handlebar bag and is not food related - spare clothes, rain jacket, toiletry/hygiene bag and towel, sunscreen and insect repellent, swimming trunks, slippers, powerbank and its charger... At the very bottom are dirty clothes, which are also taken out during the day, when or if I get to a place where it's convenient to wash them.

So, the handlebar bag and rear left pannier I open multiple times every day. Every other pannier or bag holds very specific things and are opened only when, or if, their time is up (sleep time, food time, fix puncture time, oh God no a technical problem time, oh crap a long tunnel time).

Tools, I usually have a tiny little multi-tool in my pocket on a tour. Other tools and spares being quite dense (small and heavy) are in the bottom of a rear pannier. Last time I needed to dig out the tool bag while on the road was eight years ago when I needed to get my cassette lockring and other tools out. Major hassle, but at least it was not raining.

I have ten to fifteen yr old Ortliebs. Love em. Back Packer Plas, front Packer Plus and front roller. Used primarily for commuting, grocery and laundry runs. Now off road. Double hooks on the bottom and triple top hooks on the big back Packer. Especially like the quick flip lever top hook slide adjustment when moving the bags to different racks and bikes.

Only complaint are the fastek type clips where if you’re not attentive, in a hurry, frozen fingers etc and jan them together so that they aren’t lined up such that one tooth is outside the female clip it gets broken off. Then you’re left with a somewhat proprietary buckle to match or redo the whole buckle set up.

Speaking of bags, my other favorite frame bag, Revelate Tangle, has velcro straps that come apart in time requiring some repair. I think it might be UV damage. The top velcro strap ripped apart when removed as well as the two small velcro loop straps that attack to the head tube and down tube. The zipper is starting to fail. Have to remember to lube zippers.

Yep, I tried the non waterproof panniers and rain covers for a couple years, didn't work very well for me, other than you could see me coming from some distance

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...a7ac7c1387.jpg

So, you do not need a 3mm allen wrench to loosen and tighten them? I do.

I use both Arkel GT-54s and some homemade panniers with the Arkel mounts and a few Ortlieb panniers and both are excellent. I have had the Arkels for 13 years and they look new and I commute with some Ortliebs and they are all really good.

Sure an Ortlieb might seem simple but there is absolutely nothing wrong with that in least, it might be simple but in the end it is super durable and reliable You might be paying $190 initially but you will have those panniers for 10+ years so that is less than $19 per year or if you have them for 20 years under $10 a year that is cheeeeeeeeeeeaap. Heck you can spend 10 for a single coffee in a morning, this is 10-20 per YEAR. Not a bad deal at all. Your gear stays dry and the panniers can handle just about anything.

My Arkels are certainly more complex (though they make their own dry bag type panniers that are simpler) but also extremely reliable and long lasting as well. Honestly I couldn't tell you which is better or worse as they are just really well made bags that can stand the test of time.