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Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23644240)
Silca doesn't use a surfactant but they do have a small amount of alcohol as carrier (that's one way to make the wax "small"). Rex doesn't disclose how they achieve the emulsion but I doubt they're using a surfactant. Otherwise they'd have a hard time making the claims they're making.
Silca is very cagey about what is in the wax with their SDS containing more “unknown” statements than any SDS I’ve ever seen. Rex is equally cagey. But both have to be using something to modify the solubility of the wax and there are very few substances that can do that and any of them are not volatile. In other words, they solvent may evaporate but anything else…wax and emulsifier are still that. Unfortunately you can't get those in the EU, so one either needs to make their own or go with water based. I've had a hard time finding solvents that can dissolve Rex chain wax Yup. Which is why the flame of a stove would work just as well. |
In the context of drip waxing while on tour, it should be noted that depending on where you’re going, White Lightning Clean Ride can not be taken on an aircraft.
On my last trip this past September, the inspector at Haneda airport in Tokyo wanted to see the SDS for my Ceramic Speed UFO drip before she would allow it. |
I always thought waxing is most suitable for weekend warriors. You only ride in good weather. If it is raining, you stay home. You like your stuff looking shiney because cycling is nothing but a lifestyle hobby in your eyes. Perfect case for wax.
Commuting, maybe if you use two bikes, a waxed bike for nice days and an oiled bike for wet days. Touring, hard no to wax. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650033)
I always thought waxing is most suitable for weekend warriors. You only ride in good weather. If it is raining, you stay home. You like your stuff looking shiney because cycling is nothing but a lifestyle hobby in your eyes. Perfect case for wax.
Commuting, maybe if you use two bikes, a waxed bike for nice days and an oiled bike for wet days. Touring, hard no to wax. +95% of the riding that goes on in my household is all weather commuting or utility riding year round. I maintain all the bikes we have, and since I like to make life easy for myself, all of them have waxed chains. Having tried pretty much all the other alternatives from cheap to expensive to diy, hot wax won out with reduced maintenance time, ease of use and increased longevity of components. Cleanliness is a also really nice with small children. I knew I should have taken a picture from my last commute! I had my rear mech caked in a pound of slush and the cassette was nearly completely covered by it when I got home. It was a miracle I could change gears in the first place. For these kinds of conditions wax works best especially when the slush has salt in it. Waxed our chains on our last tour too. It worked fine. Could be better but that's solved (aha..!) by either a solvent based wax or heating the chain. For non-flight tours the solvent wax will probably be the best option. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23650063)
Where have you gotten that strange notion?
+95% of the riding that goes on in my household is all weather commuting or utility riding year round. I maintain all the bikes we have, and since I like to make life easy for myself, all of them have waxed chains. Having tried pretty much all the other alternatives from cheap to expensive to diy, hot wax won out with reduced maintenance time, ease of use and increased longevity of components. Cleanliness is a also really nice with small children. I knew I should have taken a picture from my last commute! I had my rear mech caked in a pound of slush and the cassette was nearly completely covered by it when I got home. It was a miracle I could change gears in the first place. For these kinds of conditions wax works best especially when the slush has salt in it. Waxed our chains on our last tour too. It worked fine. Could be better but that's solved (aha..!) by either a solvent based wax or heating the chain. For non-flight tours the solvent wax will probably be the best option. Remove from bike, wait for wax to melt, play chef, pull out, cool, work the links loose, reinstall. In the amount of time it took you to do that once you could have squirted oil hundreds of times. And don't forget the cleaning you have to do to a new chain before you can even wax it for the first time. If you are OCD and wash your oiled drivetrain compulsively every week, I could see how waxing can alleviate the OCD and save time on washing. Other than that oiling is way less time consuming. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23650063)
For non-flight tours the solvent wax will probably be the best option.
|
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650080)
Surely going culinary with your chain in the kitchen is more time consuming that squirting oil in five seconds.
Remove from bike, wait for wax to melt, play chef, pull out, cool, work the links loose, reinstall. In the amount of time it took you to do that once you could have squirted oil hundreds of times. And don't forget the cleaning you have to do to a new chain before you can even wax it for the first time. I rotate multiple chains. For me the process is more like I turn on the crock pot, go do something useful for an hour or two. No need to be on call next to the pot when the wax is melting. After the wax has melted I dip all the used chains in and hang to cool. Takes from a few minutes to fifteen depending how many chains I have for waxing. I do that usually once every one or two months. When it comes to swapping a used chain for a freshly waxed one, you surely cannot believe that takes much time at all. Even with my super fiddly E-cargo bike it takes at most five minutes. Breaking the links is at most ten seconds. After that it's just putting on a chain and quick link. It's faster than oiling a chain. If you are OCD and wash your oiled drivetrain compulsively every week, I could see how waxing can alleviate the OCD and save time on washing. Other than that oiling is way less time consuming. With hot wax no need for washing or harsh chemicals. Also If the chains were wearing at the same rate as with oil I'd be looking into replacing around twelve chains right about know after three years of waxing. However I'm not registering any wear on even the cargo bike chains and those have gone through the wringer. 6000 miles, 90Nm of torque and regular 200kg loads as well as more than 1000km touring with 250kg loads should have caused some wear on the chains but there's nothing. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650033)
I always thought waxing is most suitable for weekend warriors. You only ride in good weather. If it is raining, you stay home. You like your stuff looking shiney because cycling is nothing but a lifestyle hobby in your eyes. Perfect case for wax.
Commuting, maybe if you use two bikes, a waxed bike for nice days and an oiled bike for wet days. Touring, hard no to wax. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...97ff2db6e.jpeg https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...825956029.jpeg Next day. Not all day but far more intense. https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...b05576769.jpeg Missouri living up to its name of misery. All day in a cold rain. https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...277fe475f.jpeg My fingers were pruney enough that I couldn’t use my phone’s touch screen properly https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...ae7fa4dae.jpeg Ontario’s back roads. Water and dirt. https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...04671c861.jpeg Snow in Colorado. Not water from the sky but it does melt and become water. https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...79fefb978.jpeg I’ve ridden lots of miles in rain with solvent wax. Yes, I have to apply lubricant after rain but if you think that you don’t have to with oil, you don’t understand how water and lubricant interact. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 23650514)
And you would be wrong. No, I don’t hot wax but I do use wax in solvent.
I'm wrong about what exactly? You and I are not even talking about the same subject. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23650481)
It's not so much the squirting of oil than wiping away the excess, which you kinda have to do if you don't want your drivetrain turning into a sludgy mess. In our winter our conditions a dry lube leads to daily relubes and a rusty chain that lasts a year of riding tops. With a wet lube you get a dark brown rusty sludge that makes the chain + drivetrain sticky, affecting shifting, causing drag and the chain again lasts at most a year.
I suppose you can waste a lot of time waxing chains. With a single chain drip wax usually works best. I rotate multiple chains. For me the process is more like I turn on the crock pot, go do something useful for an hour or two. No need to be on call next to the pot when the wax is melting. After the wax has melted I dip all the used chains in and hang to cool. Takes from a few minutes to fifteen depending how many chains I have for waxing. I do that usually once every one or two months. When it comes to swapping a used chain for a freshly waxed one, you surely cannot believe that takes much time at all. Even with my super fiddly E-cargo bike it takes at most five minutes. Breaking the links is at most ten seconds. After that it's just putting on a chain and quick link. It's faster than oiling a chain. I'm pretty far away from OCD. I don't wash our bikes. Tried washing chains briefly and decided it wasn't for me. Much fuss for next to no gain and a huge fuss getting rid of the wash chemicals. With hot wax no need for washing or harsh chemicals. Also If the chains were wearing at the same rate as with oil I'd be looking into replacing around twelve chains right about know after three years of waxing. However I'm not registering any wear on even the cargo bike chains and those have gone through the wringer. 6000 miles, 90Nm of torque and regular 200kg loads as well as more than 1000km touring with 250kg loads should have caused some wear on the chains but there's nothing. On the commuter and touring bikes it's totally the opposite situation. I will never waste time waxing those. I almost never wash my commuter bike (several years without washing). Squirt, rag, done. When I was younger maintenance felt like hobby tinkering. Nowadays I realize it's nothing but yet another household chore. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650627)
If you don't hot wax then this discussion has nothing to do with you.
I'm wrong about what exactly? You and I are not even talking about the same subject. Bikes don’t need to be covered in oil to work properly. Nor does the wax need to be hot for it to be effective. |
Originally Posted by cyccommute
(Post 23650681)
You are the arbiter of what can be discussed now? Hot wax is just one way of making wax liquid. Solvent makes wax liquid as well.
I’m fairly certain I laid out the case of why you are wrong quite clearly. Perhaps you need a synopsis. Waxing is not something that is only suited for weekend warriors. As a tourist and year around commuter, I have used solvent wax exclusively for nearly 30 years. I’ve used it in cold weather, in warm weather, in thunderstorms, in drenching all day rains, in melting snow, and even in mud. It works just fine with the added luxury of not needing to clean my damned bike every week. Bikes don’t need to be covered in oil to work properly. Nor does the wax need to be hot for it to be effective. You've never practiced immersion wax and therefore know nothing about it. Why barge into something you know nothing about and yell at the sky? I'm not the arbiter and nobody can stop you... feel free to carry on yelling at the sky alone. Enjoy. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650033)
I always thought waxing is most suitable for weekend warriors. You only ride in good weather. If it is raining, you stay home. You like your stuff looking shiney because cycling is nothing but a lifestyle hobby in your eyes. Perfect case for wax.
Commuting, maybe if you use two bikes, a waxed bike for nice days and an oiled bike for wet days. Touring, hard no to wax. |
Originally Posted by hidetaka
(Post 23650735)
Nice of you to bring back the thread just to **** talk others, we all know tourers are the only real cyclists, not some hobbyists :rolleyes:
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Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650716)
I was talking about hot immersion wax. If you drip wax exclusively without the hot part, good for you. You're using a different system.
You've never practiced immersion wax and therefore know nothing about it. Why barge into something you know nothing about and yell at the sky? I'm not the arbiter and nobody can stop you... feel free to carry on yelling at the sky alone. Enjoy. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650633)
I think hot wax has a lot of benefits as you state. I just don't think saving time is one of them. It's burdensome. I started doing it this year for our fair weather weekend bikes which get very low milage. They never get wet and the low milage means I can go months between waxings. So here the clean leg benefit starts to win.
On the commuter and touring bikes it's totally the opposite situation. I will never waste time waxing those. I almost never wash my commuter bike (several years without washing). Squirt, rag, done. When I was younger maintenance felt like hobby tinkering. Nowadays I realize it's nothing but yet another household chore. Now I don't know where you live but judging from your comments I'm going to assume it's not really challenging weather wise. For us here squirt and wipe isn't really viable unless you don't mind bad shifting, drivetrain losses and replacing chains and drive train components often. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23650481)
It's not so much the squirting of oil than wiping away the excess, which you kinda have to do if you don't want your drivetrain turning into a sludgy mess. In our winter our conditions a dry lube leads to daily relubes and a rusty chain that lasts a year of riding tops. With a wet lube you get a dark brown rusty sludge that makes the chain + drivetrain sticky, affecting shifting, causing drag and the chain again lasts at most a year.
I suppose you can waste a lot of time waxing chains. With a single chain drip wax usually works best. I rotate multiple chains. For me the process is more like I turn on the crock pot, go do something useful for an hour or two. No need to be on call next to the pot when the wax is melting. After the wax has melted I dip all the used chains in and hang to cool. Takes from a few minutes to fifteen depending how many chains I have for waxing. I do that usually once every one or two months. When it comes to swapping a used chain for a freshly waxed one, you surely cannot believe that takes much time at all. Even with my super fiddly E-cargo bike it takes at most five minutes. Breaking the links is at most ten seconds. After that it's just putting on a chain and quick link. It's faster than oiling a chain. I'm pretty far away from OCD. I don't wash our bikes. Tried washing chains briefly and decided it wasn't for me. Much fuss for next to no gain and a huge fuss getting rid of the wash chemicals. With hot wax no need for washing or harsh chemicals. Also If the chains were wearing at the same rate as with oil I'd be looking into replacing around twelve chains right about know after three years of waxing. However I'm not registering any wear on even the cargo bike chains and those have gone through the wringer. 6000 miles, 90Nm of torque and regular 200kg loads as well as more than 1000km touring with 250kg loads should have caused some wear on the chains but there's nothing. I'm happy waxing your chain works for you. I know that it can work, and I know many prefer it, but you don't have to make things up in order to extoll its virtues. |
Originally Posted by phughes
(Post 23650906)
IN my 55 years of bicycling, I have never had a rusty chain, and that includes commuting in the winter in Pennsylvania where the salt on the roads is deeper than the snow. I also have never waxed a chain, nor have I obsessed about lubing it. I simply lube when necessary. It ain't rocket science.
I'm happy waxing your chain works for you. I know that it can work, and I know many prefer it, but you don't have to make things up in order to extoll its virtues. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23650884)
It definitely can be burdensome if you don't have a good system in place. But once you do it does save time in maintenance and cost in replacements. Depending of course on where you live. If you live somewhere sunny and nice, anything works. If you live where I do there are things that work and things that definitely do not.
Samesies! That's what I think too! That's why I like doing it less. And with hot waxing I can. Now I don't know where you live but judging from your comments I'm going to assume it's not really challenging weather wise. For us here squirt and wipe isn't really viable unless you don't mind bad shifting, drivetrain losses and replacing chains and drive train components often. When I tour I ride in all weather, but at home I only ride in good weather. For recreational rides, why would I go if it is raining? I just wait till the next day. Cost of replacing worn drivetrains is not a factor for me. Bicycle components are extremely cheap, much cheaper than maintaining cars. I wax only for the benefit of clean legs. For bad weather, it doesn't matter if it's oil or wax, it's all gone after one wet ride and the chain is making noise. With oil I just squirt and wipe. With wax even if I'm rotating between several chains, I still have to physically swap the chain. Later I have to re-wax all the chains in the kitchen. If I was riding in rain frequently I would be in the kitchen all the time which is not something I want to do. So I stay with oil for bikes that see bad weather. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23650964)
How can dissolved salt be deeper than snow? Or alternatively solid salt isn't really the issue you seem to consider it to be...
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Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23650973)
I do a double boiler with a metal dog bowl. Bent coat hangar to hold the chain. Same procedure that 95% of people use.
When I tour I ride in all weather, but at home I only ride in good weather. For recreational rides, why would I go if it is raining? I just wait till the next day. Cost of replacing worn drivetrains is not a factor for me. Bicycle components are extremely cheap, much cheaper than maintaining cars. I wax only for the benefit of clean legs. For bad weather, it doesn't matter if it's oil or wax, it's all gone after one wet ride and the chain is making noise. With oil I just squirt and wipe. With wax even if I'm rotating between several chains, I still have to physically swap the chain. Later I have to re-wax all the chains in the kitchen. If I was riding in rain frequently I would be in the kitchen all the time which is not something I want to do. So I stay with oil for bikes that see bad weather.
Originally Posted by phughes
(Post 23651030)
They don't use salt water, brine, here, they throw salt, rock salt. You also are talking the comment way too literally.
If it was colder OR warmer here, there would be far less issues because with constant below freezing there's no slush that clings on the bike. If it was warmer there'd be no need for salt in the first place. But since here it's a constant cycle of below and above freezing, it gets pretty nasty when it comes to bikes. Now I'm not sure of the chemistry of what they're using. The latest news I read indicated they'd be swapping to calcium chloride, which seems to be pretty corrosive to steel. There's been a lot of criticism from dog owners because apparently calcium chloride hurts the paws of dogs and makes walking them difficult. |
Sounds like waxing a chain has become a HOT theme here. ;)))
|
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23651255)
Using a method you assume a lot of other people use doesn't mean it's an efficient method.
Riding in the rain is an acquired taste for sure, but in Europe we have this saying: There's no bad weather, just bad gear. Personally I quite like riding in the rain. Cost isn't really the issue, though I do hate spending money I shouldn't have to spend. Time spent sourcing and replacing stuff is the actual issue since my time is valuable. The only replacements I've had to do in the last three years have been jockey wheels. I guess it depends on how long your rides are. A 200 kilometer ride in the rain? Sure you might have to swap a waxed chain for a fresh one depending on how dirty the ride was overall. But I usually get a solid two weeks of wet commuting from a waxed chain. Wet going in, wet coming out with salt in the mix and just leave the bike in the cold garage to "dry", only to ride it again the next day. After two wet weeks the chain might get squeaky and at that point I'll swap a fresh one in. If that had worked, I'd probably still be doing it. But it just didn't. Wiping took ages with wet lubes and with dry lubes I'd be lubing daily and the chain still got this rusty oily sludge on it that I would have had to wash off. A few minutes every two weeks or so isn't bad IMO. I and my wife ride in the rain frequently and for some reason I don't spend a lot of time in the garage. But then again I'm really not that OCD about our bikes. I do what needs to be done when it needs to be done and with wax it's pretty infrequently. Could be. But your claim of never having seen a rusted chain tells my your conditions may not have been as adverse as you seem to think they are. I frequently see bikes that have bright orange drivetrains and the lower portion of the frame has been stained orange. I've seen frames that have rusted through because of winter commuting and road salt. Our bikes had brown chains because the oil couldn't keep the rust out. If it was colder OR warmer here, there would be far less issues because with constant below freezing there's no slush that clings on the bike. If it was warmer there'd be no need for salt in the first place. But since here it's a constant cycle of below and above freezing, it gets pretty nasty when it comes to bikes. Now I'm not sure of the chemistry of what they're using. The latest news I read indicated they'd be swapping to calcium chloride, which seems to be pretty corrosive to steel. There's been a lot of criticism from dog owners because apparently calcium chloride hurts the paws of dogs and makes walking them difficult. Also can you share what wax you're using because it's clearly magical and far better than any wax I can get my hands on. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23651263)
Ok, so what's your efficient method? Don't be so cryptic, educate everyone.
It's not rocket science. Also can you share what wax you're using because it's clearly magical and far better than any wax I can get my hands on. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23651255)
Using a method you assume a lot of other people use doesn't mean it's an efficient method.
Riding in the rain is an acquired taste for sure, but in Europe we have this saying: There's no bad weather, just bad gear. Personally I quite like riding in the rain. Cost isn't really the issue, though I do hate spending money I shouldn't have to spend. Time spent sourcing and replacing stuff is the actual issue since my time is valuable. The only replacements I've had to do in the last three years have been jockey wheels. I guess it depends on how long your rides are. A 200 kilometer ride in the rain? Sure you might have to swap a waxed chain for a fresh one depending on how dirty the ride was overall. But I usually get a solid two weeks of wet commuting from a waxed chain. Wet going in, wet coming out with salt in the mix and just leave the bike in the cold garage to "dry", only to ride it again the next day. After two wet weeks the chain might get squeaky and at that point I'll swap a fresh one in. If that had worked, I'd probably still be doing it. But it just didn't. Wiping took ages with wet lubes and with dry lubes I'd be lubing daily and the chain still got this rusty oily sludge on it that I would have had to wash off. A few minutes every two weeks or so isn't bad IMO. I and my wife ride in the rain frequently and for some reason I don't spend a lot of time in the garage. But then again I'm really not that OCD about our bikes. I do what needs to be done when it needs to be done and with wax it's pretty infrequently. Could be. But your claim of never having seen a rusted chain tells my your conditions may not have been as adverse as you seem to think they are. I frequently see bikes that have bright orange drivetrains and the lower portion of the frame has been stained orange. I've seen frames that have rusted through because of winter commuting and road salt. Our bikes had brown chains because the oil couldn't keep the rust out. If it was colder OR warmer here, there would be far less issues because with constant below freezing there's no slush that clings on the bike. If it was warmer there'd be no need for salt in the first place. But since here it's a constant cycle of below and above freezing, it gets pretty nasty when it comes to bikes. Now I'm not sure of the chemistry of what they're using. The latest news I read indicated they'd be swapping to calcium chloride, which seems to be pretty corrosive to steel. There's been a lot of criticism from dog owners because apparently calcium chloride hurts the paws of dogs and makes walking them difficult. As long as you keep your chain actually lubed, it won't rust. Take care of it. You do not NEED to spend hours waxing and swapping chains to do that. You CAN however, swap and wax your chains, and it DOES work. My lord, you do not need to make things up in order to extoll the virtues of chain waxing. Yes, chains rust, and yes, many people end up with rusty chains, BUT, if that person oculd actually keep their chain lubed, with something that will stand up to the conditions, it will keep the rust at bay, and it doesn't take much time to do that. |
Originally Posted by elcruxio
(Post 23651424)
I have my chains hanging over the garage workbench. Spent chains on bent spokes and fresh chains on pegs. Once it comes time to wax (and the wax has molten in the slow cooker) i just lift the spent chains in the slow cooker, swish a bit and hang to cool. Once the chains have cooled I take the chains off the bent spokes and hang them on the correct pegs (every bike has a chain peg). In order to keep things organized every bike has its own bent spokes and every spoke has been tagged for a specific bike.
It's not rocket science. Currently I have Rex Black Diamond hot melt in a 1+11 configuration (1 black puck and 11 white pucks) I'll check out that wax. |
Originally Posted by phughes
(Post 23651500)
I did not say I had never SEEN a rusted chain. I said I have never HAD a rusty chain. In other words, the normal lube I use keeps it rust free. In my state they use over 10 tons of salt per lane mile. We use over 1 million tons for the state. I literally live in what is known as the rust belt. I do know where I live, and know the conditions.
As long as you keep your chain actually lubed, it won't rust. Take care of it. You do not NEED to spend hours waxing and swapping chains to do that. You CAN however, swap and wax your chains, and it DOES work. My lord, you do not need to make things up in order to extoll the virtues of chain waxing. Yes, chains rust, and yes, many people end up with rusty chains, BUT, if that person oculd actually keep their chain lubed, with something that will stand up to the conditions, it will keep the rust at bay, and it doesn't take much time to do that. |
Originally Posted by Yan
(Post 23651524)
How many chains do you keep in rotation for each bike?
I'll check out that wax. |
it is getting dramatic here;)
I don't read covert insulting insinuations neither calling somebody a liar. just different approaches and opinions. should I wax my chain today?¿ liquid or hot wax? |
Originally Posted by str
(Post 23651699)
it is getting dramatic here;)
I don't read covert insulting insinuations neither calling somebody a liar. just different approaches and opinions. should I wax my chain today?¿ liquid or hot wax? At home, and on tour, I clean the factory lube off the chain before I install the chain. Not because there’s a problem with the factory lube but I’ve found over the years that the factory lube is messy if left in place. Once clean…just clean enough, no stripped to the point where it would be clean room clean…and installed, my chains don’t come off until they need replacement, roughly 3000 miles later. And, no, solvent wax…nor, I suspect, hot wax…doesn’t need to be refreshed every 100 miles. I’m currently recording data on a solvent waxed chain on one of my bikes. I’ve logged 1500 miles on the bike and am averaging about 400 miles between wax application. In other words, about the same as oil but without the mess. |
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