A bit of good news-I discovered a 20hole Ritchey Zero System sealed bearing hub in my hub box. I can drill 20 more holes, install the 4mm shortened non-drive spacer that I'd previously had machined, use a Velocity Dyad rim, and-VOILA!! 126mm, 10 speed, 40 spoke, freehub wheel exrtoidnaire!!
Now, to remove that freehub body and set up the drill press...........

Umm, a bit of a fly has worked its way into my ointment. If I drill the second set of holes as planned, it occurred to me that the new holes will be directly opposite the OEM holes in the opposite flange. That will eliminate the stagger between the holes in the flanges. Will this present a problem? Should I orient pulling spokes directly opposite each other? Or, should they be staggered by one hole? As this is a rear wheel, the stronger tension of the drive side spokes should take precedence over the non-drive side spokes, or so I would think. The spole lengths may need to be adjusted, but probably not even a full mm.
Any thoughts from the wheelbuilders out there?
Thanks.

equidistant holes all the way around the hub, you just start from scratch with a 40 spoke rim.

chamfering the hole edges of your inner faces of the flange to bed the j of the spoke will probably have to be by hand.
like i say shimano tandem hubs can work on a single, shorten axle, to suit.

I've read that the chamfering of the holes is about the bend in the spoke rather than seating the head,but I do plan on breaking the corners inside by hand.
As for the Shimano tandem hub, I've thought about those. However, I want the narrower spaced flanges of the Ritchey Zero System hub in order to reduce dish, especially since I'm using 126mm spacing. I'm really watching out for the DT manufactured Ritchey hi-lo flanged hub due to its larger diameter flanges; however, I have no experience machining down the non-drive spacer the -4mm required to suit my needs. I'll have to play that one by ear if I ever find the hub. I've seen the 24 hole version for sale, but not any 20 holers as of late.
I didn't think the lack of radial stagger would have any negative impact.
Thanks.

I've run a Phil Wood and then a Bullseye hub , freewheel, 126 , for decades,
48 14 Ga spokes.

It's trying to pack in cogs more than 7 that forces too much dish.. IMHO
no advantage of having 8, 9 0r 10.. touring.
spread of ratios matters more. 6 or 7 , 13-34 sufficient.

easy enough to turn out axle spacers on a Lathe..
But you can just Buy them too...various thicknesses 10 mm ID.

I have rim and hub on order for my primary loaded touring wheel, which is still gonna be a Phil Wood Touring hub spaced for IRD 7 speed freewheels. This moves the hub shell 2 or 3mm to the drive side, reducing dish. This is because the IRD supposedly has a lesser stack height than other 7 speed freewheels. I dunno. I have a couple of Shimano Sante 7 speed fw's that seem to be the same height. We'll see.
Anyyway, 36 14/15/14 DB spokes 4X onto a Velocity Cliffhanger 700c rim will complete the wheel. The dish will be +/- 5mm from center. As close to dishless as I could come for a 7 speed setup. This was recommended to me by Rivendell's wheelbuilding guru Rich.
I have a vintage Specialized 126mm fw hub that has narrower flange spacing than other fw hubs I've seen, but that pesky thought of axle breakage looms large, especially as I weigh 230# without bike and/or gear. That's part of my freehub rationale. (Hopefully the PW's are as good as they say...)
But, half of the attraction of cycling for me has always been playing with equipment.
As such, my quest for the perfect 126mm 8/9/10 speed freehub wheel continues.......
As for axle spacers, the latest Ritchey hubs have sealed bearings and no threaded axle. The non-drive axle spacer is (probably) aluminum and pressed onto the steel axle. That requires machining to shorten the dropout end, as the hub end has a flange to shield the bearing. I've done this on the earlier Ritchey sealed bearing units successfully.

I don't know about the perfect wheel...probably just multiple choices depending upon the use.

I ended up using a 9speed wheel built up more for tandem specifications. Phil Wood hub, 48 spokes, velocity dyad rim build from Peter White. 700c.

I was very heavily loaded, and probably started my tour weighing 200lbs +?60lbs gear. Never had any wheel problems, including riding for extended periods on 2nd/3rd world dirt/gravel.

-Now if I had a bottomless budget I would go with 26" rims and an internal gear hub, and perhaps a trailer because I did like to carry a bunch...

I have XT hubs, Mavic 719 36-spoke rims, and double-butted spokes. I've taken three tours without breaking a spoke, and I'm a pretty big guy. I built mine myself using Sheldon Brown's instructions. I bought some nice tools as part of the process, including a Park truing stand and a tensionmeter. I like having my own tools!

I'm presently building a "touring 29er" for the Great Divide route. I've bought XT hubs. I'm going to go with Mavic 719's again. I'm looking into the triple-butted spokes Stuart mentioned. The rear hub looks like there isn't much offset on the drive side. Is it worse because of the discs? I'm a little nervous.

Yes, with 135 mm dropouts, you'll have still have a dished wheel. Here are two sources of silver Alpine III's:

http://www.precisiontandems.com/catframepart.htm
http://www.sjscycles.co.uk/13-16-14g...of-6-prod1694/

For the GDMBR I chose the wider Sun Rhyno Lites and the White Industries M16 hub because of the consumer replaceable (with an Allen wrench) sealed cartridge bearings. I also have Alpine III's on this wheel.

On butted spokes. Most experts agree that they are better. The issue is whether you will end up with a wheel that fails if you don't use them, and for the most part that is a myth. Well made straight spoke wheels will take incredible abuse and some tourists even prefer them. If the best argument one can come up with is that butted spokes may absorb the shock of severe loads, that isn't really saying much. How often do you expect that a single spoke takes all the load.

The way I look at it is this. If you get a chance to get well made wheel with straight gauge spokes at the right price etc... Don't hesitate. If you are making a custom wheel use butted spokes, they are not all that much more expensive when you are buying single spokes by a top brand like Wheelsmith, and then you have the confidence of knowing you are riding the best, whether it will ever make a difference or not.

I totally agree. I have never broken a straight gauge spoke. Ever. The only reason I went butted was because so many people are adamant about their superiority. The cost penalty was only about 50 cents a spoke, increasing the cost of my (rear) wheel about 5%. I did refrain, from going to more than 36 spokes, however. (36 spokes w/ 250lb rider + bike+ gear).

You never know when you'll have take that one hit that would have broken a "lesser" spoke.

I had some 36 H Velocity Dyad rims built with Ultegra hubs for my commuter/touring bike for about $350. They have held up well so far (2600 miles commuting) and are lighter than most other options for touring wheels. Weight was an important issue for me because the roads are hilly where I live.

When I drill the extra 20 holes in the Ritchey Zero hub I'll lace it to a 40 spoke Dyad. Hopefully that will fill the bill for the freehub style. Time'll tell (along with a few thousand miles...)

The proprietor of the LBS told me that a 32 spoke touring wheel should be fine for my 230# body + 25# boke + 50# (?) gear, as he bases his theory on the abuse he heaps on his 32 spoke mountain bike wheels. I'm not too sure.
I have purchased a new 32° Bontrager Fairlane rim that I'm going to lace to a 32° Ritchey Zero hub spaced for 126mm. This should render a totally symmetrical spoke configuration with the rim's 4mm offset. DB stainless spokes, but can only go 3X as the rule of the 9's indicate.
So, my hopes that a symmetrical wheel will render the radial strength to hold up. Once again, another opinion leads to more testing.....

I have been on this soap-box before but since you asked...

My expedition grade (Arvon-built) bike has 26", 48 spoked Rhyno Lite rims with PW hubs. They are 4X laced with 14 ga. spokes. Solid, and heavy. They are/were pretty well indestructable.

My Shimano RD lost a screw and the RD went into the rear wheel one night. I couldn't pedal any further and the next morning hitch hiked 700 km to Katherine NT (Australia) and the LBS there use my spare spokes to "fix" the wheel. There was hardly any wobble when the spokes were broken, but the RD was replaced. He said the wheel was in great shape, but it was hard to replace the spokes because of the 4X lacing...

Later on the Roper River road I was going along and all of a sudden the front wheel went almost 90 degrees to my motion because of a hidden rock in the bull dust. I fell down, but the front wheel was OK. No buckling... 48 spokes held it together - I think.

Enough said. Get the most spokes you can and don't worry about the extra $$ you spent. You will reap beneits in longevity and "security".... :p

I am now planning a lighter "folder" with a mini-velo design with 20" wheels and a 36 spoke Rohloff rear hub, but built for sustained touring. It will fit into one bag for easier air travel. Not better, just a differnt type of touring. :p

"The cost penalty was only about 50 cents a spoke, increasing the cost of my (rear) wheel about 5%. I did refrain, from going to more than 36 spokes, however. (36 spokes w/ 250lb rider + bike+ gear)."

I did the same thing. People act like buying straight spokes is some huge cheapout, when the price is pretty much the same. Certainly nothing that would change what I did.

"You never know when you'll have take that one hit that would have broken a "lesser" spoke."

It is mostly the rim you really have to worry about particularly these days. Quality of spokes is way up, quality of rims is down, at least for our stuff. It occurs to me that one guy, Beckmann who recommends straight spokes and claims huge experience, is a multi spoke plus guy. You go 48 spokes you are less loaded per spoke. On the one hand you have less load, on the other hand there is less give, the point comes when you aren't going to deflect the tapered bit because it is as stiff per load as the straight gauge would be at lessor numbers. But he has broken butted spokes to handling, baggage hooks, sticks, etc... So his overall recommendation is for straight gauge for 40 or 48.

"The proprietor of the LBS told me that a 32 spoke touring wheel should be fine for my 230# body + 25# boke + 50# (?) gear, as he bases his theory on the abuse he heaps on his 32 spoke mountain bike wheels. I'm not too sure."

That's bad advice, not to say you will have problems. Impact loads are completely different from fatigue situations. Also depends what rim size he is basing it on. 32 on 26" is 36 on 700c, 29er, 27". The real clincher is where is the upside? Usually the wheel weight is actually heavier as you go down in spoke numbers because the rim gets heavier for the same strength. But people have built 20 spoke wheels and toured extensively on them, but it doesn't make it the best choice.

Just because Peter White builds you wheels doesn't mean that you may or may not have issues... I had a wheel built by Peter White that has been nothing special including the spokes I've managed to break. Now realize that I'm about 160 lbs and running maybe 40lbs of luggage. The wheels are Velocity Dyads with XT Hubs and Wheelsmith Double Butted spokes. I have yet to find a wheel I can't break though so YMMV. Doesn't matter if it's my touring bike or my race bike..... If i can't break it I'm not putting out enough watts. :)

Too true, you have to want the wheel to survive, and there are doubtless ways to beat nearly any wheel up. I try to be kind to my wheels, but I know there are some people who don't want to do anything to reduce the wear. It is part of the fun.

Peterpan1 Writes: "The real clincher is where is the upside?"

For various reasons I am still trying to build a reliable touring wheel based on a 8-10 speed freehub for 126mm OLN setup.
I am building an "Old Reliable" wheelset using 36 spoke PW hubs and Velocity Cliffhanger 700C rims, but still want to build the aforementioned freehub setup.
As I am building 2 or 3 touring bikes, I have need for multiple wheelsets anyway, and I have always been fascinated with equipment (especially doing things that are not common.) I'm just odd that way.

For anyone still reading this thread,
Here's a new twist. I have "discovered" the availability of Shimano 7 speed hyperglide cassette bodies. These can be swapped onto my Ultegra 10 speed hub shell, thereby reducing the dish. Along with the use of a Bontrager Fairlane asymmetrical rear rim, I calculate that the dish should be of the order of 3mm. Drive/non drive spokes would only be .5mm different in length, using 14ga spokes in a cross 4 pattern.
Then, I can use an 8 of 9 cassette sprocket setup, eliminating a cog that I never used anyway, and have a pretty darn strong 126mm freehub style rear wheel.

Changing cassettes on a given hub + freewheel doesn't change wheel dish.

I had the dropouts on my steel frames opened to 135, both road and mountain bikes. With the 135mm hubs I can minimize dish about as much as I am going to be able to do. In the last couple of years I have gotten one new bike frame and rebuilt a couple of my older bikes. What I did for my 26” wheeled expedition touring bike was 40 hole White Industries hubs, front and rear, with Velocity Aeroheat rims (they are the same extrusion as the Dyad rim). They were bullet proof. I toured for the first time with no wheel problems.

The new frame I got was a Salsa Vaya. I wanted to try disk brakes. They work great and White Industries makes similar hubs for disks. I have two sets of wheels for it: Ride2 hubs with Velocity Dyad rims and White Industries hubs with Velocity Deep V rims. Both are working just fine with 9 spd cluster setups.

My older Holland’s touring bike has 48 spoke Phil Wood hubs with Sun Rhyno Lite rims. This is probably overkill. It is heavier than is really necessary, but it is certainly bulletproof. With fast 700x37c tires it doesn’t seem to mind the slight excess weight of the rims.

I just finished rebuilding my criterium racing bike. It is 35 yrs old and after I stopped racing hasn’t been ridden much in that time. I put a pair of 40 hole White Industries hubs with Velocity Deep V rim wheels on it. It is certainly fast enough; faster than any of my other bikes. I am riding it on a Metric Century on Sat. I don’t expect any problems with my wheels.

I neglected to mention that I weigh 265.

That is true. But the 7 speed Uniglide body is 4 or 5mm shorter than the 8sp and up body. That will reduce dish after adding a spacer to the non drive side.

Mine is a Cannondale , which, of course, is heat treated aluminum. I know that many people have sprung the frame apart to use 130mm wheels, but I choose not to stress the frame in a direction for which it was not designed. Especially as I weigh 240# and loaded touring will add to that substantially.

I just finished a tour on my custom built 68cm steel frame touring bike. It performed well, but I was able to detect an amount of upper end flex that I found unsettling. I was unable to hold a straight line when out of the saddle, even if just to stretch my legs. Probably due to my weight and my touring load. That bike has 140mm PW hubs and 40 spoke wheels. I had no wheel issues whatsoever. But, I want to try another similar tour n the 'Dale to see if the wiggly tendencies are eliminated. I look to a freehub to build a wheel less likely to suffer axle breakage.
I will still build a wheel using a PW freewheel hub, but the most cogs I can get with that is 7. That will be for a different Cannondale bike, and I'll use7 or 8 speed barcons or brifters.

Apparently you meant to say in #51 that you discovered that 7 spd hubs produce less dished wheels than current 9/10 spd hubs, which is fairly common knowledge to bicyclists who have ventured into wheelbuilding.

Right you are! But, I'll bet you won't see many honest to goodness Ultegra 6600 true 7 speed freehubs!

If you spread the frame out, that also reduces dish.. 145 is what tandems use.

they have used the extra left side to add the Drag brake, on the hub.

Correct. But I an talking about 2 different bikes here. The 140mm is a custom built steel frame, and the hub will accomodate a drag brake.
The 126mm wheel is for an older model Cannondale. Spreading those frames is not recommended.

You don't mention your weight or how much you will be carrying. Number of spokes required and choice of other wheel components is a function of how heavily you plan to load the wheels. The recommendations given are probably on target for fairly heavily loaded touring. The 48 spoke recommend is probably overkill unless you are going really heavily loaded.

I too would recommend 14/15/14 rather than straight gauge ones.