jens5

Somebody please chime in here. Knowing they're both fine machines, I don't understand how a Rivendell Atlantis with one color choice,limited sizes and unknown tubing can cost $1400 US. A Mercian (King of Mercia) with your choice of Reynolds tubing, hand brazed, custom fit to your measurements in 63, 2 tone color combinations with hand pin striping, shipped from England, can be up to $400 (depending on options) less than the Riv!

This doesn't make sense.

Richard

skinny

Ok, you are on the verge of seeing the light, the truth. Now grasp it and make it your own.

Or continue to drink the Rivendell kool aid. After all, Rivendells are made by elves, from secret tubing, in secret factories, in glades nonetheless, and they use a magical paint that has a secret ingredient that allows only one color for the charm to work. If you buy a membership to Rivendell, you'll even get a secret ring that will make invisible all the smirks from people thinking, "Another dupe."

NoReg

Have either of you ever bought clothes. Amazing a T-shirt one place - 5 bucks, at a designer store 500! Incredible who ever heard of such a thing, etc...

Everyone has their odities:

Here is some other magical thinking:

- pufery around pipes, sure some tubing is better that other kinds of tubing, but that's mostly a cool-aid selling exercise particularly at the touring level of things.

- paint, wow, they sell different colours! awesome, that makes it a better bike for sure.

- Brazing, good for people who can't weld and think spending lots of money on light tubing and then flrying it while adding lots of weight is just the best thing.

Custom fit, now that IS worth it.

jens5

I can understand some of your cynicism. but I'm eliciting a comparison of apples and apples here. Although color as a practical consideration is moot, having a choice is nice IMO. In that I'm looking for a lugged, steel frame,brazing is of course, a must and more of an art than some welding. To say that hand brazing is for someone who can't weld is nuts. I already own a tig welded frame. Less money? Come-on. My question is concerning the comparison of the Riv and the Mercian, both lugged steel touring frames. Too me,bottom line, why is the Atlantis with less options considerably more costly than the equivalent Mercian?

Richard

skinny

Everything about Mercian is better. Rivendell is a marketing company. They are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value. Mercian is a manufacturing company offering real value for the pound, er, euro, er, dollar. Seriously, choice is better. Experience is better. Quality is better. You have found the true value. Where is the confusion?

Alekhine

The Atlantis seems like a wonderful machine and I still want one, but I went with Mercian myself when the time came to get my dream bike. If you think about it, should you want Mercian to duplicate everything about the Atlantis except for the graphics (plus anything else you wanted to add like midfork rackmount bosses, for instance, which the Atlantis doesn't have), they could, since Rivendell lists the geometry for that bike on their website. It's not exactly rocket science for them.

So why an Atlantis over a Mercian? I don't really know what goes on in other people's heads, so I can't say. I have no basis in fact to say this, but perhaps a lot of (North American) folks think that ordering from the UK might bring more trouble than it's worth, particularly shipping back something you're not satisfied with.

Also, I'm sure there are plenty who really like the aesthetic look of the Atlantis over that of the Mercian - something we are all able to snicker at, but it's part of the appeal. And to be honest, Mercian's chosen paint schemes on their website, with their gnarly metallic grey x rust orange mixes don't do them any sort of justice at all, IMO. There is a great difference in marketing between what Riv is doing and what Mercian is. The Atlantis has lovely lugwork and a nice metal headbadge with a sailboat, etcetera...for style points it's pretty much up there, unless you hate their choice of Bianchi celeste/turquoise for the color. Mercian can be too though. You can get Mercian's Vincitore if you have a thing for stylin' lugs, and the color choices and multitudes of transfer options and little doo-dads like parallel bands and barberpole pinstriping make it a much more compelling option for the aesthete as well as the person who knows exactly what their bike is going to be.

I wanted Rohloff dropouts on my bike, a perfect fit, and a few other particulars, which of necessity made me want a custom (though I could have ordered something like a Thorn), and Mercian seemed like the least expensive option, while still satisfying my unabashedly admitted desire to have a pretty bike. They created for me a wonderful frame that was exactly what I wanted, though I wish now that I would have ponied up the extra $100 or so for the Vincitore, which brings us to:

Perhaps the "problem" with ordering a custom for many is that you have to know in minute detail what you want your bike to be, which takes a good deal of knowledge and planning. I went into it without knowing everything I could have, and I made a few decisions about my own still fine bicycle that in retrospect I might have done a little differently. Mercian was able to hold my hand throughout a great deal of the process, and they questioned a few things that I put on the ordering sheet that I shouldn't have (why get cable guides under the BB if you're going with a Rohloff, for instance), but in the end it was all me, and it took a great deal of decision-making that was frankly hard. Even something as seemingly mundane as picking a color scheme rendered me for awhile something like the hungry donkey in the parable that stands equidistant from two hay bales. He is so dumb that he can't decide which one to eat from, so he just stands there without eating at all.

old and new

I'll chime in! It ain't gonna be easy but I'll keep it as brief as I can. as far as cost..ought NOT to be addressed by ONE notion, it may become apparent having taken all into consideration. I can't speak for Mercian, "don't know 'm can't vouch for 'm" (as the Chief said in the movie Fargo). MANY MANY (most) folkes in the cycling world , including SEVERAL custom frame builders DO vouch for RIVENDALE. Some rely on his sizing perameters to some extent as well, more on that later. As far as color; it's all about being able to provide a fine bike at a reasonable price efficiently and rather quickly. ANYWAY..DEFINE CUSTOM.?? Sure you'll get custom from a builder, as long as it meets some set of criteria, within a realm of riding style choice frame size and the like. The custom guys don't allow you to "design " your own geometry either. You'll select :touring, sport ,race...you WON'T have any in-put towards tube lengths, angle per-say.To do so would be silly anyway. Sure we as riders know(or think we do) if we'd rather a liong top tube, aggressive angles etc..it STILL must fit within the perameters of what the triganometry will allow. Frames have been developing for over 120 years, geometries have been established that just work! Before I go on,I find the comments of Skinny ammusing and there may be some truth to it. As far as brazing, lugged ,tigged..too long of a topic to get into, besides custom builders don't even agree on that.By the way, one thousand seems awfully low-priced for custom, I'll reserve further comment.One CAN get a frame that fits one perfctly "off the shelf", get a complete bike as well for less than two..AND test -ride it so...about the price..well..that's a mixed bag. I've investigated Bob Jackson bikes for example, just didn't make sense to me. I've spoken to more than one Bob Jackson owner, one's a dog. B J DOES have an EXCELLANT/world-wide rep..but..so much for a totally "risk-free" choice.I state this simply to address the England/custom issue. I STILL want one some day,wasn't a priority with my present purchase though. FULL DISCLOSURE on frame materials and geometry. Consider this: Conalgo DOESN'T and nver has made a "custom" frame;THEY feel that in offering every single size in CM's(no gaps),they'll provide any rider with the right size..live with thier geometry or DON'T!
Pegoretti doesn't list the exact alloy they use, they DO list geometry. Merx and others DO list exact frame alloy but DON'T list "complete "geometry..NEVER have..not in thirty or so years anyway.So much for full disclosure.
Rivendale, as with many other Companies offering fine bikes just want to keep SOME things simple.THEY know what works,THEY'd rather not have slugs like me and you nit-picking,over-obcessing over EACH measurement and alloy spec. while losing sight of the end result..buyin' a bike that's not WRONG. I'm an expert at buyin' the wrong bike.I have a 45 year history to bear that out. Don't make the same mistakes I have in the past.Get a frame that fits.The up-side of a custom is that they WILL prevent you from buying a "wrong" bike..perfect??
NOT sure!!?? Riv. only offers one color on some models, like I said, they choose to keep THAT simple. The HH
model doesn't work for me, It might for you though. I just can't deal with having to have 650b wheels on my bike in that model ,the size they spec. me for. I like the Bleriot model, I'll buy one sooner or later,an interesting
alternative, versitile bike. For now I have a red Italian bike on oder as my main ride. Heck ,I'll have a red bike,
others too, I fancy havin' a bike in a real nice color,one that I'd have not chosen sight unseen.I have gray suits.
The next suit I buy won't be gray,I will get one that fits though.

Alekhine

Nah. I was able to very specifically state what kind of geometry and tube lengths I wanted, and it deviated from the "standard" geometry on their website a good deal. You can, for instance, specify what length chainstays you want if clearance for panniers versus your very large feet are an issue. My frame has 47 cm chainstays, 4 cm longer than the suggested 43 on their website. You can specify BB drop, tube length particulars - everything - on their order form. If you make a choice that is impossible, Mercian will tell you.

In keeping with the point of this thread, here's someone who wanted an oversized headtube and wide tire clearances on his Mercian, ala Rivendell. Other than the paint scheme, with the handlebars and looks one would think it was a Riv:

https://www.fixedgeargallery.com/2004/e/laumb.htm

nun

I looked at a Mercian when I was thinking of a new bike, but in the end went with Riv for these reasons;as mentioned I thought buying from the UK might cause issues; Mercian simply had too many options I was intimidated by their spec sheet; and then Riv came out with the Quickbeam which I thought was good value
at $1300 for the complete bike. After riding the Quickbeam I was sold on Riv comfort.Since then I've built up a second hand Rambouillet and now I think I know enough about geometry to have Mercian build me a suitable frame, which will happen some day......nolug lining though as I think its tacky.

As far as the $400 price difference in frames, remember Riv contracts out most frames to Japan and Mercian does it in house, also there may be a volume issue I'd like to know the annual frame sales of both firms. The reasons for the difference might be interesting, but for the customer they are not really relevant, Riv is good to get you a well made comforatble bike, Mercian will do the same for you, but I think you need to be a bit more of a "bikehead" to be sure of getting a well fitting bike.

Alekhine

If you ever change your mind about this, do NOT get the lug lining anyway. Do it yourself with an artisan's paint pen. Whoever they have to do the lug lining has about as deft a hand as a 90-year-old cake-decorator.

nun

I don't like the look of any lining I've seen, it sort of screams "look at me I've got lugs". The examples I've seen of do it yourself lining are even worse than the current Mercian efforts.

Alekhine

Yea, there are some bad artists out there. I'm good with hand-eye coordination though, so I feel confident in saying I would have done a much better job than Stuart (I think that's his name) at Mercian did. I'm still considering re-doing mine, though it's not terrible. More than anything about the job he did I want to change the contrast color I chose from white to gold.

And I understand your feelings about lug-lining, but my tastes differ. I like it, depending on how it's done and if the lugs are interesting enough to deserve it (mine really aren't). It's common in the old 1940s and '50s master English club bikes that I've fallen in love with, so I guess you can 'color' me a lug-line-devotee.

I think this is pretty, for example:

nun

Agreed, its a good looking example, gold is a good lining color, I hate white though.
On intricate lugs it can look good as the "look I've got blugs" thing is sort of
appropriate. On purely functional lugs its a bit lame. I could go for the example
in the picture you show, but I draw the line at those Hetchins lugs, they are just
too over the top.

Alekhine

Right. Hetchins can be terribly gaudy indeed. I think with the example above that it "works" because the frame is without a contrast color on the head tube, so the lining itself becomes the contrast color.

But Rivendell, for example, uses a really nice cream contrast color on all their head tubes, so the lining is not only unnecessary, it would look weird in spite of their fancy lugwork. I made that mistake, actually, with my frame, though I still love the looks of it.

I don't have a host for pics of my complete bike, and the only example of it online is on Mercian's frappr page from when I first got the frame, but here's my Mercian: (though the pic is a little squashed for some reason)

nun

Good looking bike, I like the green and white scheme. I was going to get a green Rambouillet, but
got a good deal on a used blue frame. I see that the money you saved on getting the Mercian frame
you spent on a Rolhoff Speedhub....nice! I was thinking of that for touring, nice ratios and super reliable,
but I went with the old derailleur set up as although it is probably more subject to wear and failure I
can always cobble some fix together if it breaks.

I think Hetchins look worst when they have different colors for the head tube, lug and down tube.
The lugs of the forks can be particularly over the top. I admire the craftsmanship but not the aethsetic.
Its sort Victorian in its fussiness

canali

skinny says:
Everything about Mercian is better. Rivendell is a marketing company. They are marketing a concept to generally uninformed customers who don't know where to look for true value. Mercian is a manufacturing company offering real value for the pound, er, euro, er, dollar. Seriously, choice is better. Experience is better. Quality is better. You have found the true value. Where is the confusion?
---------------

I'm laughing so hard at your rediculously simplistic opinion that I won't even comment to correct it...sheesh...give your head a shake, man!.

tacomee

There are lots of frame builders out there.... some bad ones, some good ones with reasonable prices, some good famous builders who charge really, really high prices.

Are these *name brand* frames worth it? That depends--- most of the folks who buy these pricey frames don't miss the money. could they get a better value? Very likely.

Remember bike snobs will pay twice as much for a name brand. Cannondale, Soma and Kogswell are all very nice bikes... made with many Tektro parts. Most of the folks who ride these bikes wouldn't be caught dead sporting Tektro branded parts.

nun

You forgot Surly

Rivendell frames are very good, but I agree over priced (apart from the Bleriot), but the parts that get put on them are not snobby, that's the whole point, use what works, friction shifters, Sugino cranks, TA rings
(yes that's a bit snobby) Tektro brakes. I think if you look at Mercian and Rivendell framed bikes many of them are actually "Frankenbikes" with parts taken from old bikes and various manufacturers.

nun

I think the majority of Rivendell owners are well informed, middle aged cyclists with a few spare bucks looking for a comfortable nostalgic bike. Sure Rivendell do some interesting marketing, but Grant Petersen has contributed something good to cyling in the US, and certainly knows his market. Mercian could learn something from Rivendell about marketing and Rivendell could learn from Mercian when it comes to price.
Still I paid $1300 for a Quickbeam and I'm ok with that because I fit the Rivendell target customer profile and I know I'll be riding it for another 25 years.

markf

Rivendell has completed frames shipped from Japan to the US, which should add a fair bit to the price (packing, shipping, customs duties). Mercian has truckloads of steel tubes shipped from Birmingham (or wherever Reynolds tubes are done these days) to their workshop, which strikes me as a much simpler, cheaper proposition.

Looking at the website, Mercian seems to be a much bigger operation than Rivendell (which isn't saying much, I know), and therefore should be able to realize certain economies of scale. If nothing else, building all those frames in house would make it easier to offer a lot of colors, especially if the frames are built to order.

The Atlantis has more tire clearance than the King of Mercia touring frame, and braze-ons for three waterbottle cages instead of one. Small differences, but they add something to the cost of the Atlantis. Small Atlantis frames are built for 26" tires, bigger Atlantis frames are built for 700C tires. Great for the people who ride small frames, but it probably adds a little to the cost.

It's true that the Reynolds name is better known than whichever Japanese steel mill made the tubes for the Atlantis, but the Japanese have a long tradition of bicycle building and overall manufacturing excellence. Tange, for one, provided steel tubing for some very expensive mountain bikes before aluminum, titanium, and carbon fiber displaced steel in the high end bike market.

Do all these details justify a $400 price difference? I don't know. Are they worth $400 to the consumer? That really depends on what the consumer wants from his bike.

skinny

Ummm, shaking my head, wondering, what does rediculously mean?

Alekhine

Yep. I know very few Riv riders, but here in Northern Cali I should think I know a higher proportion than average, and they are no slouches when it comes to discrimination regarding what they want out of a bike. They are all in love with their various Rivendells. There's a Saluki owner I see at one of the coffee shops on fourth street all the time, and his bike is something else, built with modest components, and it looks like a dream. Rivendell definitely could work on their pricing, yes. For $1400 a frame, I want a custom.

And like you said, Mercian definitely needs to work on their marketing. The Rivendell bikes right out of the catalog are all very fetching objects, and the descriptions of what they are and what they're doing are all top-notch ad copy. Grant appeals to a niche crowd, but he knows exactly what they want. Mercian does a good job of representing their history and craft, but they haven't dialed into the commuter-touring-functional nor aesthetic market the way they really should. They still seem aligned with the racing/speed/Campagnolo element a bit more than they should be. And again, the graphics schemes and components they choose to represent their line are almost all borderline garish compared to what they could show. Even if they went with baby-food bland (like the second pic below) they would do much better than their catalog examples.

When you consider these two bikes below, the first from the Mercian website advertising their own product, and the second showing a random customer's rather plain but IMO much prettier bike from a web page, it isn't a stretch to say that someone at Mercian doesn't have a great flair for the potential beauty that their own bikes are capable of, from componentry to paint scheme. Understated is what they should aim for, and they've gone with rather ugly examples to showcase their own product. It's very unusual that they don't show a Brooks saddle on any of their main-page bikes, considering the huge number of these saddles that Mercian owners on the web seem to sport.





And ya, nun, if you ever get a chance to try out a Rohloff, do. They are overpriced too, but over the long haul it's worth it.

Alekhine

Look at my King of Mercia frame, the green one above. It has braze-ons for three cages and cranked stays for wider tires (though you can hardly see the latter from the pic). They will do anything you want them to, including by definition things you can or can't get on an Atlantis, and that's the point of a custom. They've had customers carve their own lugs to build bikes around even.

(Not to be argumentative or contradictory, by the way, but it's just true - the KoM is just a name and a guideline. What you get out of it beyond that is what you ask for.)

skinny

I'm not trying to flame you or start an argument, but you made my point earlier with these words,What issues? Literally thousands of Americans have bought from British builders for decades and a simple search of these forums would turn up numerous examples of the positive experiences buyers have had with Mercian. Pardon me when I say again, your view is uninformed, as I stated in my previous post.

Another admission that you, as a consumer, were lacking the knowledge necessary to deal with a buying experience. So you bought a prepackaged product based on marketing information rather than technical specifications. This is what I said about Rivendell:I'm afraid it fits you to the t. So when you say I'm afraid you're contradicting yourself. And the idea that Well, I have to disagree with Alekhine on this. Mercian has been in business successfully for more than half a century now and are considered a leader in the British frame building industry and a global marquee not only for quality but also for value. Because some people are afraid to buy from overseas or are unable to work through the process of ordering a product like this is not a reflection on Mercian's marketing. Do you have a mirror?

Alekhine

Point taken, skinny. Mercian is indeed all that, but the point of marketing isn't necessarily to appeal to people who already know your reputation and product, but to appeal to those who don't too, including those who don't know all the particulars of ordering like BB drop and seatpost angles. I still hold to the opinion that Rivendell has a more appealing marketing strategy, no matter the disparity in reputation among those "in the know."

One of Grant's methods is that in his ad copy, he appears to "talk to you." Say what you want about it being a snake-oil shuyster pitch, but it works, and the Riv products are all of high enough quality for it to be valid and to produce happy customers. Mercian? Less so, although the happy customer thing seems to be as high or higher, particularly since a bespoke custom is by definition customer-dictated. Mercian tends to describe their product, history, and craft, and it's not bad, but it's not the same kind of pitch at all, of which I think Grant is a definite master, to the point where he can make a Ticonderoga #2 pencil sound like the best pencil ever invented (and he does sell these, by the way). Grant sells a lifestyle, Mercian sells a bike. I have fewer problems with Mercian's written copy than I do with their graphical representation of their product, though. (See my post above. That orange/metallic grey KoM, in my humble opinion, is a ghoul of a bike compared to what Grant is offering, just based on looks alone.)