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Ultimate breaking

Old 08-04-07, 02:56 PM
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Ultimate braking

Hi,
I wonder what will be the best braking rig possible?
I thought of cantis and disks at the front together?! ׁ
This setup (if possible) create more questions:
How would you lace the wheel to handle the two forces, disk and the cantis?
Should the wheel have 36, 40, 48 holes?

Thanks

Last edited by kipibenkipod; 08-05-07 at 12:37 AM.
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Old 08-04-07, 03:29 PM
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You only need one type of *cough* brakes. I'd stick with V brakes: plenty of stopping power, easy to repair in the field.
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Old 08-04-07, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Bacciagalupe
You only need one type of *cough* brakes. I'd stick with V brakes: plenty of stopping power, easy to repair in the field.
I hate this breaks, but maybe I always used stock that came with the bike.
I always have problems with the return after breaking and adjusting them.
But for my suggested setup, what do you think? How can it work?
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Old 08-04-07, 05:38 PM
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Ultimate breaking ....

Are you talking about breaking, as in cracking and falling into pieces ... or braking as in the act of stopping?
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Old 08-04-07, 07:38 PM
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A disc brake will stop you and your loaded rig just fine. If you're that concered about it, you can get bigger discs which will significantly increase your braking power.

No need to make things needlessly complicated by putting two braking systems on the same wheel.
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Old 08-04-07, 08:33 PM
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It isn't really the type of brake that makes a difference in stopping....it's the quality of the brake. Cantilevers, v-brakes, discs and calipers all work great....if the brakes are good, quality parts.

Cheap brakes don't work so well.
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Old 08-04-07, 10:42 PM
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I'm mounting front V brakes and disc brakes on my current bike. I don't really think it is such a wonderful idea. This is a custom proposition, so I can rig my brakes in ways that have hardly been conceived of yet, and I think that the double front brake advantage could be had with less weight without including a disc as part of it. One would get redundency, and increased braking performance without really needing the weight of the disc, but those are the tabs I have on my fork, the parts I have bought, and I intend to see it through. The disc has some wet weather advantages so all is not lost.

I don't think one needs special wheels, and I am going with 36 spokes on the front. Given that the rim and the hub are both braked, as long as one shares the loads between brakes there would be less stress on the wheel and lacing than normal. And nothing out of th eordinary in any case. The only thing I would say is that in many cases this kind of braking might be associated with a stouter ride that would benefit from more spokes in any case, but for me I just wanted to play with a more capable braking system.
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Old 08-04-07, 11:46 PM
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I guess if I had to choose, it would be mechanical discs, if only to get an edge on wet-surface stopping without having the extra weight and complexity of a hydraulic setup.

If I were going custom, I still might want fork posts for cantis, V-brakes or even a centerpull, just in case a rework were necessary on the road.

Otherwise, I would go with cantis.
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Old 08-05-07, 12:34 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilsGT2
A disc brake will stop you and your loaded rig just fine. If you're that concered about it, you can get bigger discs which will significantly increase your braking power.

No need to make things needlessly complicated by putting two braking systems on the same wheel.
Yep, I know, but what I'm trying to prevent is the stress on the spokes when using disk on a loaded tourer.
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Old 08-05-07, 12:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
Ultimate breaking ....

Are you talking about breaking, as in cracking and falling into pieces ... or braking as in the act of stopping?
Sorry, you are right. I meant Braking
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Old 08-05-07, 12:46 AM
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Originally Posted by Peterpan1
I'm mounting front V brakes and disc brakes on my current bike. I don't really think it is such a wonderful idea. This is a custom proposition, so I can rig my brakes in ways that have hardly been conceived of yet, and I think that the double front brake advantage could be had with less weight without including a disc as part of it. One would get redundency, and increased braking performance without really needing the weight of the disc, but those are the tabs I have on my fork, the parts I have bought, and I intend to see it through. The disc has some wet weather advantages so all is not lost.

I don't think one needs special wheels, and I am going with 36 spokes on the front. Given that the rim and the hub are both braked, as long as one shares the loads between brakes there would be less stress on the wheel and lacing than normal. And nothing out of th eordinary in any case. The only thing I would say is that in many cases this kind of braking might be associated with a stouter ride that would benefit from more spokes in any case, but for me I just wanted to play with a more capable braking system.
Good luck setting up and calibrating the brakes. Please update the thread when you finish and tell us how it feel. I also want to know how it feel when cycling on a loaded rig and breaking on a descent.
Tnx
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Old 08-05-07, 01:03 AM
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BTW - I've got V-Brakes in front and cantis on the rear. I had to have a travel agent installed with the V-brakes to improve their efficiency. I actually find them easier to adjust than the cantis.
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Old 08-05-07, 01:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
BTW - I've got V-Brakes in front and cantis on the rear. I had to have a travel agent installed with the V-brakes to improve their efficiency. I actually find them easier to adjust than the cantis.
"
What do you mean "I had to have a travel agent installed with the V-brakes..."? What is "travel agent"?
Whey did you put V-Brakes in the front? Why not cantis?
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Old 08-05-07, 01:33 AM
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Originally Posted by kipibenkipod
"
What do you mean "I had to have a travel agent installed with the V-brakes..."? What is "travel agent"?
Whey did you put V-Brakes in the front? Why not cantis?
A travel agent is someone who helps you book trips to other places.


But in the cycling world, and specifically in the braking world, a travel agent is the blue thing in the attached photos.

I changed my forks from carbon to steel, and when my LBS did that, they told me that they had to change the front brakes to V-brakes because the cantis wouldn't work anymore. I believed them ... I'm not sure I should have.

Hmmm ... for some reason I can't upload the photos just now. Not sure why. I'll try again later.
.
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Old 08-05-07, 08:34 AM
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Originally Posted by Machka
I changed my forks from carbon to steel, and when my LBS did that, they told me that they had to change the front brakes to V-brakes because the cantis wouldn't work anymore. I believed them ... I'm not sure I should have.
.
That seems odd....cantis and v-brakes would use the same posts...I wonder why cantis wouldn't work? Oh well v-brakes work well so its not a big deal. I have them on my touring bike.

I like disc brakes in general, but they have several negatives for bike touring:
- require a dished front wheel making it weaker than a standard front wheel
- require a disc specific fork which will not be as comfortable as a canti fork - needs to be stronger to resist the one sided braking of a disc
- discs are heavier than cantis/v-brakes
- disc rotors are easily damaged during transport
- hard to find replacement disc brake parts in less developed countries
- setup correctly rim brakes work very well and can stop a touring bike effectivel
- disc brakes make installing racks and fenders more challenging

So I have disc brakes on my commuter and city bikes, but not my touring bike. I certainly wouldn't bother with two types of brakes on my wheels. It seems like that would be solving a problem that doesn't exist.
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Old 08-05-07, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by vik
That seems odd....cantis and v-brakes would use the same posts...I wonder why cantis wouldn't work? Oh well v-brakes work well so its not a big deal. I have them on my touring bike.
It had something to do with the sizing or shape of the forks ... the new forks were rounder than the original flatter carbon forks .... at least that's what they told me.
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Old 08-05-07, 01:22 PM
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Thanks for the post.
I agree with what you said.
Can you elaborate how to create a very strong brakes?
One think though, If you put disk with cantis, the two together will balance the forces on the spokes. So even if the wheel is dished, it should not be stronger then regular front.
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Old 08-05-07, 01:28 PM
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Originally Posted by Machka
It had something to do with the sizing or shape of the forks ... the new forks were rounder than the original flatter carbon forks .... at least that's what they told me.
Machka, aren't you on the flight? ;-)
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Old 08-05-07, 02:26 PM
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Originally Posted by kipibenkipod
I hate this breaks, but maybe I always used stock that came with the bike.
I always have problems with the return after breaking and adjusting them.
But for my suggested setup, what do you think? How can it work?
I recommend you learn how to adjust your brakes. Either find a nearby bike mechanic class, or work with your LBS. V-brakes work well for millions upon millions of cyclists of varying mechanical abilities.

I may be wrong, but my understanding is that disc brakes are harder to repair and adjust than v-brakes. However, I think overall they require less maintenance. The major issue for touring is that if you are in the middle of nowhere, it will be very difficult to repair disc brakes and/or get parts.

I think it is rather silly to use two different brake systems, in fact it's kind of pointless. Either disc or v-brakes are more than capable of locking up the wheel. And if your wheel is dished, you're not going anywhere anyway.
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Old 08-05-07, 03:27 PM
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Originally Posted by kipibenkipod
Machka, aren't you on the flight? ;-)
2.5 hours .... just finished packing my bicycle into his box and everything is ready to roll.
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Old 08-05-07, 09:35 PM
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I'm not anticipating much trouble calibrating the brakes. I am using 287 levers designed for the Paul Vs I am using, and I am using Avid mechanical discs. Those shouldn't be all that difficult to adjust, but one of the advantages of doubling up is that I can use the alternative system if some problem shows up. Some people say Vs have problems tracking and need lots of micro adjustments. I haven't heard that complaint around here much, but If I had a problem I couls just unhook one brake and wait till that evening to trim stuff up.

There can be issues with the spoke loading on discs, but I can ****** the rim also, so it won't be an issue by definition. The one thing I probably can't do is operate all three brakes at once. There is a 287 that allows one to run three brakes off two levers, but I decided I prefered to stay away from that, for one thing I will have high and low brake access, from the tops, hoods, or drops.
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Old 08-05-07, 09:49 PM
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If you get brakes that can lift up the rear of the bike when the front brake is applied, that is the ultimate braking force. Direct-pull brakes do this fine for me, therefore adding discs would increase weight and not improve my braking performance (in the dry anyway... that's not my point). I understand when you tour, the bike is heavier, so stronger brakes would be necessary. I just wouldn't recommend two systems. They should sell brakes strong enough, its not as if you are doing something out-of-the ordinary. Tandem brakes may be something to look into, they would have to be designed to withstand >400 pounds.

All of this is just my speculation though.
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Old 08-06-07, 12:10 AM
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Originally Posted by DevilsGT2
A disc brake will stop you and your loaded rig just fine. If you're that concered about it, you can get bigger discs which will significantly increase your braking power.

No need to make things needlessly complicated by putting two braking systems on the same wheel.
When you are on a loaded bike, the problem is not the bigger disk, its the force you apply to the spokes.
Its like a race between the disk and the rim. The disk is always winning, but the gap will be determined by the strength of the spokes. When you have a strong spokes, your rim will not be so late after the disk.
I think here a good spokes lacing scheme will help eliminate some of the force applied.
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Old 08-06-07, 12:11 AM
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You might run into some issues fitting a rack onto your bike with disc brakes. Touring bikes typically don't use disc brakes. People who tour on mountain bikes with disc brakes will pull a trailer. You would be good with something like this https://www.paulcomp.com/frmbrakes.html (Touring Canti) or with any of these https://www.sram.com/en/avid/rimbrakes/index.php (Single Digit 5 or 7)
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Old 08-06-07, 12:19 AM
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Originally Posted by adrianlatrace
You might run into some issues fitting a rack onto your bike with disc brakes. Touring bikes typically don't use disc brakes. People who tour on mountain bikes with disc brakes will pull a trailer. You would be good with something like this https://www.paulcomp.com/frmbrakes.html (Touring Canti) or with any of these https://www.sram.com/en/avid/rimbrakes/index.php (Single Digit 5 or 7)
Which is more powerful ?
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