cyccommute 

In 6 and 7 speeds, maybe 8. Finding indexed shifters to match would be difficult...even in 8 speed

cyccommute 

Why not use the gear calculator to calculate what you could do with an 11 tooth cog? You can run a 44 tooth outer ring and still have a gear that is high enough to be useful and a nice small crankset gear set up that shifts better than the old 52/40/24. You can run a 46 or 48 and have gears that are useful for those times when you don't have a load on the bike and would like to surge up to 27mph (not that hard to do on a loaded touring bike if you've trained for it, by the way). Or you could have a high enough gear so that you can pedal and not have to coast down long hills (here in Colorado we're talking downhills in terms of miles and sometimes more than an hour) so that your knees aren't stiff when you hit that next uphill. Can't do that with a 44/13!

seeker333

I just bought shimano a400 7 spd index/friction downtube shifters from nashbar a couple weeks ago for 7 bucks.

Both shimano and sram still produce 7 speed shifters (which is current project of mine). They are in fact easy to find. SRAM has 2 models of 7 spd grip shifters, and they're cheap.

8 spd are harder to find.

CharlesC

I don't remember off hand. Somewhere in my shop I probably have the original full size drawing for that frame. I'll check.
As an OT aside, I didn't make the it for myself. I made it for one of three misionaries who were riding from Oregon to Equador IIRC to set up a school. The other two were riding Raleighs. Raleigh found out what was happening and offered a free bike to the third rider. He offered to go ahead and buy the bike anyway since we had made the deal. I told him to save his money for his expedition and kept it for myself. It's almost an inch too tall but I can stand over the top tube without discomfort so I ride it all the time.

NoReg

"Why not use the gear calculator to calculate what you could do with an 11 tooth cog? You can run a 44 tooth outer ring and still have a gear that is high enough to be useful and a nice small crankset gear set up that shifts better than the old 52/40/24. You can run a 46 or 48 and have gears that are useful for those times when you don't have a load on the bike and would like to surge up to 27mph (not that hard to do on a loaded touring bike if you've trained for it, by the way). Or you could have a high enough gear so that you can pedal and not have to coast down long hills (here in Colorado we're talking downhills in terms of miles and sometimes more than an hour) so that your knees aren't stiff when you hit that next uphill. Can't do that with a 44/13!"

I know you use it, you're my downhill hero, but how many really need it? In colorado you might well hit 50, so what good will spinning the pedals do you. I hit 30 once in Quebec!

My point is 9 sounds WAY better than 8, but it really amounts to two gears with little utility in reality. One is an 18% jump to the top end, and the other is a double tap, that most users won't find. You are a hard core user, and whatever you do is fine by me.

CharlesC

Measured dimensions of old blue touring bike:
Fork Rake: 2 1/2" Reynolds #12 raked fork blades. I would use #15 today for more trail.
Trail: 1 3/4" Too short but rides with hands off OK. I have learned a lot about frame dimensioning in the last 30 years.
Frame angles: Designed to be 72-72 degrees. 30 years later measures 72 1/2 degree seat tube, 71 1/2 degree head tube. Have better stuff to measure with now.

Bekologist

I'm building my next touring bike with S-7 wheels, rod brakes, and a Phil Wood slackchain hub.

you derailluer tourers embracing modern technology are just wacky

ronzorini

I have to speak out, I think you're mis-quoting cyccommute. IMHO, he's always provided much insight and tries to help everyone. I, for one, value his opinions. This is coming from guy who uses both freewheels and freehubs

d_D

Perhaps the lowest end shimano hubs don't use hardened axles but all the others do. Phil doesn't solve the problem by using a hardened axle. Phil solves the problem by throwing material at the axle.
Most people can see straight through the misleading comparison of hub weights because they know a freewheel weights more than a cassette so hub weight alone does not give the full picture.

geoffs

Freewheel hubs are not stronger than freehubs.
Freewheel hubs have an un-supported length of axle that bends. Perhaps if you are light, don't carry much gear or don't do many kms, they last a long time. I have been touring and commuting on freehubs for the last 18 years and have never bent an axle since I made the change. I have bent lots of axles on freewheel hubs.(mainly Dura-ace and Superb-Pro)

Here is Sheldon's take on freewheels
"In the early 1990s, the industry moved to 8-speed clusters with 130 mm spacing. 8-speeds were available in both freewheel and cassette hubs. As with the move from 4- to 5-speed, and from 5-speed to 6-speed, this required adding spacers to the right-hand end of the axle to keep the chain from rubbing on the frame.

As it turned out, the increased length of un-supported axle sticking out from the right side of the hub was just too long for traditional 10 mm threaded axles. 8-speed freewheels were sold for several years, but a very large percentage of the riders who bought them wound up having problems with axle breakage/bendage. As a result, 8-speed freewheels eventually pretty much disappeared from the market.

This also coincided with the increasing popularity of the cassette Freehub ® which didn't have the problem of axle protrusionn. As the number of sprockets has continued to increase to 9 and now to 10, thread-on freewheels have become obsolete for high-end applications. 9- or 10-speeds have never been produced, as all modern derailer bikes of decent quality use the much superior cassette Freehub system."

When we were touring on a tandem through Italy in 1990 we destroyed a freewheel. When we found a bike shop they had trouble removing the freewheel (25% hills riding fully loaded screws them on real tight) and the replacement one caused problems. Good luck trying to get one now!
Phil Wood is good and has a lifetime guarantee . It wont break down on you when you are on tour. Do a search and see if you can find anyone who has been stranded by a broken Phil Wood hub from mechanical failure. You wont.
There are alternatives.
I use Chris King on our old tandem and Hugi on our not so new Mocha, on which we are up to nearly 10,000 trouble free kms of touring and commuting. White industries hubs are also highly regarded.

In short. Don't bother putting a freewheel on a new bike.

Cheers

Geoff

NoReg

"Perhaps the lowest end shimano hubs don't use hardened axles but all the others do."

That may be true, seems as though it ought to be, however, just as with bolts there are different levels of strength that can be achieved. Nobody seems to doubt that Shimano needed to make the move to something stronger, and that Phil didn't.

"Phil doesn't solve the problem by using a hardened axle. Phil solves the problem by throwing material at the axle."

OK, so it's even less than a dollar...

Realistically Shimano engineers... exist. Which is more than can be said for most bike companies. Shimano stuff is good. Where they get caught out, or riders do, is when some new insanity develops for which the Shimano gear is not sufficient. When I re-bearinged my current LXs, I was as usual taken aback to see the hub was basically an empty tin can. It looks all sturdy, until you pull the axle. It's so thin the labyrinth seal was dented way out of shape. There is a place for beefier hubs and hubs built specifically for touring.

"Most people can see straight through the misleading comparison of hub weights because they know a freewheel weights more than a cassette so hub weight alone does not give the full picture."

A yes, I used to worry about such things until I bought that canonball known as a Rohloff hub.

I guess though we should score one more for the Freewheel, it weighs more, though not as much more as the Phil hub weight difference, about half the difference, and it doesn't add rotating weight when you are coasting!! :0)

What Sheldon has to say about the physical limits of freewheel axles seems to leave unstated all the ways there are of dealing with axle issues. They could just make it of better performing materials or design; they could make it fatter (yes I got the memo); They could make it solid, etc... Of course you can't patent any of those solutions.

So interesting things on Sheldon's excellent site, about freewheels, that contradict some stuff said so far are:

- Most recent technologically improved Freewheel design issues by Shimano: 2005

- You can customize the gearing on most freewheels. I knew this though I have never bothered.

also reasuring:

- They have a lot of freewheels for sale.

- The site gives 4 (main?) reasons Freeehubs are superior, of these only the tendency to tighten in place is of any serious relevance to this discussion, and has proven a manageable problem in my experience, others see it differently.

Bekologist

peter, your adulation for freewheels is unnerving. can you get us a 9 speed freewheel that works with modern, quality mountain bike shifters or STI brifters, peter? drivetrains are 9 and 10 speed systems nowadays, if you haven't been following things, pete.

have you struck a deal with Phil to help him unload all his old stock Freewheel hubs?

and the sensible riders agree.

Iowegian

My experience is that I've found loads of freewheels on bikes I've pulled from dumpsters and I have yet to see one that didn't work. Worst case, they might need lubrication but after being left in the rain for a year, that's to be expected. I also use (and enjoy) brifters but I would never expect a set to last as long as the freewheels you find on any old junkyard bike.

That leaves the question of axle strength and in this category I think a Phil hub wins easily. So believe what you want and I'll do the same.

bwgride

While Phil products are high quality, they are not immune from failure. Perhaps one reason Phil products are so seldom seen to malfunction relative to Shimano products is the result of exposure. If both Phil and Shimano had the same failure rate, say 3%, we would still probably see millions more Shimano products fail simply because Shimano has so many more products exposed to failure due to market share.

Here are some reported Phil hub problems (note the first two left bicycle tourists stranded):

1. "I suppose that I shouldn't have been too surprised that the hub failed, considering the extreme conditions that I encountered over the first two weeks of the tour. However, the part that failed was a top-of-the-line Phil Wood hub, which has a reputation for durability, so that was a little disappointing. I suppose that they had never met Madagascar before, though."

Stranded for 15 days.

https://www.terminalia.org/mad/page5.htm

2. "The bike shop was closed when we arrived, they reopened at 3:00 pm. The mechanic pulled the cassette off, and that is when we realized that the problem was the hub. What a Phil Wood hub not working. So off to the internet cafe we went and called Phil. We talked with Brent the techie. He said he would send us a hub right away."

Took one week to get a replacement hub.

https://downtheroad.org/southamerica/...ChileJOURN.htm

3. "I probably shouldn't mention that the missus and I have broken a pawl spring on the tandem. That said, it did keep working, but made a horrible clunk when you resumed pedaling after freewheeling."

https://www.serotta.com/forum/archive...hp?t-1372.html

4. "The Phil Wood folks took a look at the rear hub, and a piece of the pawl had chipped off and become lodged in the freehub mechanism (thereby disabling it). Once they'd removed the chip, everything worked just fine. "

https://bigfaceworm.blogspot.com/2004_11_01_archive.html

5. "Big Huge Dave isn't as big and huge as he used to be, but he's still competing in the brivets. He broke a 48-spoke Phil Wood wheel (the freewhub pawls got munged), and is hoping for it back before the 600k event in a couple of weeks. "

https://beauty.nagog.smasher.net:81/b...s/2006_06.html

6. "The pawls were okay, but the ratchet ring was disintegrating. Some of the ratchet points had broken off and were floating around inside the hub.

This failure was particularly surprising as we were using a reputable hub. When we had rear hub problems on the Dalton Highway in Alaska, we asked our Michigan bike shop, Prestige Cycles, to build us a new wheel from scratch using a Phil Wood hub."

https://www.teamangell.com/story_Pittsburg_Ellington.htm

7. "I've had a pair of Phil Wood hubs for over thirty years and just noticed
some wobble in my rear tire. My bike shop (a trustworthy place) reports
that the hub is broken and they'd recommend replacement."

https://www.cyclingmob.com/general-cy...t-options.html

geoffs

Well I stand corrected on the Phil Wood failures.
Just terrible to think that a company that has been making hubs since 1971 has had so hubs breakdown. I wonder how many hubs they have made a sold during that time?
Interesting to note though that the people using the hubs haven't said that the hubs weren't any good and they are now using xyz hub instead. The parts that failed were replaced rapidly by Phil Wood. Even in Cunco Chile!
South America seems to be hard on parts as a couple (https://www.karennben.com/) that I met when they were in Sydney had their Rohloff hub break in a remote area. Rohloff air freighted a new hub to them for free within a few days of being contacted.
I was interested to read about the Team Angell trip. They were carrying 140lb of luggage and they did carry the kitchen sink! Unbelievable the amount of gear some people tour with. They also had ridden 5000 miles before they changed the chain. This meant that they had destroyed their steel Salsa granny ring as well. mmmm. We get about 3000km before our chain has worn enough to require replacing. We tend to wear the middle chain ring out first and replace these every 15,000kms or so. The Steel Onza Buzz Saw 26t granny ring is still going strong after 14 years on our old Santana Sovereign.

Slightly OT but.....
Cheers

Geoff

seeker333

Of the 7 incidents you cited, 6 occurred on the relatively new PW cassette hub - with the failure in the freehub (the new part of basic hub design that's existed since the 70s). I'm don't think its fair to pick out failures on a product that was relatively new at the time, going thru the usual "beta" process, and then proclaim it failure-prone. If you examine any new tech product in the bike world you'll find few that don't have some problems, invariably discovered by customers, the real beta testers of the world. Take for example the newish outboard bearing style cranksets from Shimano. They've had problems with the bearings and spindle-binding on this product (the very problem it intended to solve, made worse), but have resolved many by revision of the installation procedure. Does this mean Shimano cranks are junk? Or failure-prone? Not trying to sound like a PW cheerleader, just pointing out the weakness of this argument.

I would not recommend a PW cassette hub except in limited cases. It offers few advantages (replaceable sealed bearings) over shimano lx or xt hubs (cups and bearings wear out, then wheel rebuild time), at 5X the cost (300 vs 60 USD). It can built up in 40 and 48h versions, which would clearly be advantageous to clydedales.

The PW FSA (threaded) hub is another thing entirely. It offers a singular advantage over all other hubs for sale today - it builds the strongest rear wheel, at a reasonable cost. By that I mean the resulting wheel would be the least likely to break spokes in normal loaded touring service. The reason for this is that PW has located the flanges so that dish is minimized. The 7 speed FSA can be built into a dishless wheel. For a given combination of rim and spokes, it will build a stronger rear wheel than any other cassette hub you can choose (even the weakest 32h FSA will make a stronger wheel than other 36h hubs). You can buy even more insurance against spoke failure with the 36, 40 and 48h version of the PW FSA. Here's the proof (from spocalc).


phil wood fsa 7 spd freewheel 135mm old rear hub + 26" velocity synergy oc rim

input data
total number of spokes 36
effective rim diameter 540
offset spoke bed 2.5
width from center to left flange 29.0
width from center to right flange 23.5
left flange diameter 57.8
right flange diameter 54.5
spoke hole diameter 2.4

output data
# spoke crossings 3
left spoke length 256.9
right spoke length 257.6
left bracing angle 5.9
right bracing angle 5.8
tension ratio L:R 0.98

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shimano deore dx 650 7 spd cassette 135mm old rear hub + 26" velocity synergy oc rim

input data
total number of spokes 36
effective rim diameter 540
offset spoke bed 2.5
width from center to left flange 35.6
width from center to right flange 25.0
left flange diameter 45.0
right flange diameter 45.0
spoke hole diameter 2.6

output data
# spoke crossings 3
left spoke length 260.3
right spoke length 259.6
left bracing angle 7.3
right bracing angle 6.1
tension ratio L:R 0.83

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

phil wood fsc 9 spd cassette 135mm old rear hub + 26" velocity synergy oc rim

input data
total number of spokes 36
effective rim diameter 540
offset spoke bed 2.5
width from center to left flange 32.5
width from center to right flange 20.0
left flange diameter 57.8
right flange diameter 54.5
spoke hole diameter 2.4

output data
# spoke crossings 3
left spoke length 257.3
right spoke length 257.2
left bracing angle 6.7
right bracing angle 5.0
tension ratio L:R 0.75

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shimano deore xt 750 9 spd 135mm old rear hub + 26" velocity synergy oc rim

input data
total number of spokes 36
effective rim diameter 540
offset spoke bed 2.5
width from center to left flange 34.5
width from center to right flange 21.0
left flange diameter 45.0
right flange diameter 45.0
spoke hole diameter 2.6

output data
# spoke crossings 3
left spoke length 260.1
right spoke length 259.2
left bracing angle 7.1
right bracing angle 5.2
tension ratio L:R 0.74

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shimano ultegra 6500 9 spd 130mm old rear hub + 700c velocity aerohead oc rim

input data
total number of spokes 36
effective rim diameter 598
offset spoke bed 4.0
width from center to left flange 37.1
width from center to right flange 20.9
left flange diameter 45.0
right flange diameter 45.0
spoke hole diameter 2.6

output data
# spoke crossings 3
left spoke length 289.0
right spoke length 288.2
left bracing angle 6.6
right bracing angle 5.0
tension ratio L:R 0.75

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

shimano ultegra 6500 9 spd 130mm old rear hub + 700c mavic t519 rim

input data
total number of spokes 36
effective rim diameter 601
offset spoke bed 0.0
width from center to left flange 37.1
width from center to right flange 20.9
left flange diameter 45.0
right flange diameter 45.0
spoke hole diameter 2.6

output data
# spoke crossings 3
left spoke length 291.0
right spoke length 289.4
left bracing angle 7.3
right bracing angle 4.1
tension ratio L:R 0.57

Iowegian

Another advantage is that the weakest part of the system - apparently the pawls of the freewheel - are contained in an inexpensive, relatively easy to replace part. I don't know how one destroys a freewheel but I imagine it would just as easy to destroy the internals of a freehub under the same conditions. If it were me, I'd rather be faced with replacing a broken freewheel than a broken freehub.

NoReg

+10

This is what I was saying a few pages back. There is a problem in the freehub mechanism, it isn't the bearings outboard, or the cassette. The nun in the *****house is the shell the cassette mounts, to the pawls etc... And coming back to the original post of whether there is any reason whatsoever to use the freewheel Phil... Well said.

On the 3% speculation. Shimano could easily half that figure, or better, if they wanted to become a small scale producer in southern california. I don't see anything in that statistical model that suggests the failure rate for a Phil, etc... should be the same as that of Shimano, which is has it's production done goodness knows where, probably shares a building with Mattel. Each is just doing what it does best.

NoReg

"peter, your adulation for freewheels is unnerving. can you get us a 9 speed freewheel that works with modern, quality mountain bike shifters or STI brifters,"

Brifters!! I wear briefs actually, how the heck did the thread take a turn in this direction.

"peter? drivetrains are 9 and 10 speed systems nowadays, if you haven't been following things, pete."

If I am not mistaken you first lossened your retaining nut on this subject back in that Rohloff thread a few years ago. If the Rohloff is so accepted among the hard core touring elite, why would I worry about the superior gear ratios of even a 7 speed system, in comparison? However, life is looking up for you. There will be a 11 speed, then a 12, and then a 13 for tourists. They will all be increasingly vulnerable, incompatible, and oh so cool. Just hang in there little fella.

""have you struck a deal with Phil to help him unload all his old stock Freewheel hubs?"

No, but if you can make it happen, I will take two!

I'm not sure overstock by twenty years worth is actually how the hand controls or CNC milling system works. If he was casting in China maybe. Also where NOS is concerned, it's rare that it is in-stock, across the board with more sellection than any other hub maker...

cyccommute 

A freehub is a relatively minor part to replace...and not much more expensive than a freewheel. You need a 10mm allen wrench and a new freehub (the Phil ones are a little different but even easier to dissassemble and replace). Remove the axle, break the retaining bolt loose, remove the free hub body and reverse the sequence to replace. Having had to remove an exploded freewheel from a hub a few times, it's much easier to work on the freehub.

The freehub internals are also buried under the axle bearings so they are protected much better than the bearings of a freewheel. The main killer of freewheels in my experiences has been grit that sneaks in around the very minimal seal at their face. I've also had freewheels (good Suntour ones) that have backed off the outer lock ring during pedaling and spilled the guts on the road. That makes for a long walk

seeker333

I also like the idea of making the freehub assembly disposable. I've never broken one either, but if I can replace them (as part of a complete freewheel) along with worn cogs for 15-20 bucks a pop every 10-20,000 miles, well that meets my acceptable cost expectations.

The freehub will be much easier to find than the freewheel you'd want, but more expensive (freehubs tend to sale for the same price as an entire new 105/lx/xt hub on sale). I'm fairly certain the shimano freehub interchanges among all hub models in the same speed category, i.e. deore 9 spd freehub fits lx, xt, 105, ultegra, etc. So any X spd freehub, or one scavenged from a new hub, would work. Freewheel could be a 3 day wait for special order.

More to the point - I'd rather risk a freewheel failure on a PW FSA, than risk a freehub failure on a Shimano hub (which i believe is the same likelihood as a freewheel failure, both being unlikely events) PLUS the more likely spoke failure in a dished, weaker wheel, PLUS ball bearing / cup failure due to wear, or corrosion, or both, necessitating an entire new wheel build (which in a PW hub is a mere bearing change).

The PW has great bearings (they're a popular retrofit on all those fancy new Shimano and FSA outboard bearing cranksets). And if the need arises, the bearings can be found at most any bearing shop, in stock, due to the popularity of that particular bearing size - 6902. And then replaced sitting on the side of the road in 5 minutes with only a 5mm allen wrench.

https://www.google.com/search?q=6902+sealed+bearing

Let's see - bearings, freehub + cog assembly - now that just leaves the PW FSA hub with a shell and axle assembly - 8 parts total - to let you down.

There's salient irony in the PW hub failures cited by BWGRIDE - 6 of the 7 events would most likely not have occurred had the owners ignored everyones' insistence that "freewheel / threaded hubs are obsolete/bad, don't use" - and gone with the proven and less expensive FSA threaded hub and a $15 7 speed shimano freewheel.

cyccommute 

Pretty much the point I've been making all along. Replacing a freehub body is pretty easy and you are more likely to find them nearly everywhere. Jenson has a 9 speed HG for $20...about the same price as the freewheel they carry and the 9 speed will take 7,8 or 9 speed cassettes, so it fits a wider range of bikes and shifters.

I agree that failure of the freehub is unlikely. I'll disagree that the failure is about the same as freewheels however. I've been using freehubs for longer than I used freewheels by now. I've never had one fail. I have, on the other hand had freewheels fail for various reasons that I've listed before. Most of them wore out because of grit in the body but a few did disassemble.


The advantage of the Phil freehub wheel is that you don't have to remove the cassette to get at the bearings...something you'd have to do with a freewheel. The same 5mm wrench will drop out the whole assembly ...cassette and freehub body included. You can't do that with a threaded hub because the freewheel covers the bearings.

Overall, I find there are many more advantages to freehubs (other then the wider bearings) and fewer liabilities then a freewheel system. I'm willing to put up with some minor flaws (and there aren't many that I can see) for those advantages. If you have an old bike and don't want to change or can't afford it, then keep using the freewheel. If building new wheels, I'd still suggest the currently available equipment over trying to scrounge parts that are 15 years out of date.

Let's face it, with the exception of the Phil threaded hubs, anything else you find out there that uses freewheels (new, mind you) is going to be pretty crappy. I've seen freewheels on some bikes that are at or just above Wally World bikes but I wouldn't spend a lot of time or energy on building wheels from those parts. And there are some good old hubs but, for the most part, those are not really going to work with a new frame...not one with 135mm drop outs anyway. Most of them are going to be 120 to 126mm spacing.

seeker333

You are right, my mistake, skipped that crucial step.

I fully agree. But my posts specifically addressed the 7 spd PW FSA hub, my intentions being to

a. provide a better answer to the OP's original question of which PW hub is the better choice for a good touring wheel, with cost considered (who appears to have moved on long ago to a xt/650b wheel), and

b. point out the superiority of this hub for loaded touring, with respect to its usefulness in preventing one of the most common bicycle touring equipment issues (flat tires aside), that of spokes breaking / rear wheel longevity. Not many forum readers build wheels, much less take time to explore wheel designs with spocalc and an obscure hub like the PW FSA.

If you've built many rear wheels, and had the luxury of using a park tensiometer to gauge your work, then you'll surely agree that a dishless, multispeed rear wheel is a godsend.

Short of a Rohloff hub (now 1200 USD with current exchange rate) with the additional strength advantages of shorter spokes and wider flanges for improved lateral strength due to greater bracing angle, the FSA hub is the best you can do for a rear wheel (that happily can be built for <200 USD).

cyccommute 

A better choice would be to go with an OCR wheel. The off center drilling makes for a dishless wheel. Unfortunately, in a rather ironic twist, they seem to only be available in low spoke counts. I have a 36 hole Ritchey on my touring bike but they don't make them in higher than 32 count now. The prefect rim for loaded touring and they only make them for the fast-n-light crowd. Go figure.

NoReg

Why is it that the better choice is always something that doesn't exist? Maybe time would be better spent figuring out what you could do with the Freewheel based Phil hub. I'm still not overrun with suggestions on options for 40 or 48 spoke wheels.

I like the fastest and most agile shifting I can get, but I don't know if it allows me to arrive at my destination any faster. Mechanical failure, breakages in spokes rims of hubs would be a greater concern.