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Halt! vs. Regular Pepper Spray

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Halt! vs. Regular Pepper Spray

Old 07-25-08, 02:20 PM
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gregw,

You are a better cyclist and better on the draw than I could be. I can't keep to the side of the road with one hand on a slowly moving (but now swerving) loaded bike and the other hand trying to spray the eye of a moving dog snapping around my feet. I guess since you live in KY you've had lots of practice.

People should not be treated the same way because from the perspective of our society as codified by law, one may attack in self-defense only when a "reasonable person" would do so. If the police officer decides that your attack was not reasonable, you might be the one that goes to jail and that's after your alleged assailant has pounded you into oblivion in his/her self-defense.

I agree that one should not fear technicalities in the law, but one shouldn't violate it either.
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Old 07-25-08, 03:17 PM
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Originally Posted by Joe West
I find a small .380 semi-automatic handgun to work much better than Halt or Pepper Spray.


Joe
I concur that an effective weapon is optimum, but if only used as "appropriate force level" otherwise someone will be facing severe criminal charges.

I have a can of "Bear Spray" which is long lasting, strong and has 9 seconds of spray and will spray out to 30 feet. It isn't cool to have to walk or ride through your own cloud of spray hanging in the air. Additionally, the warnings are that it can cause permanent blinding in humans.

This is an interesting thread and I believe relevant to all of us in a society that seems to becoming increasingly violent. Rising fuel and basic necessity prices are only going to contribute to an increase in crime in any already crime ridden environment.
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Old 07-25-08, 03:35 PM
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Originally Posted by fthomas
I concur that an effective weapon is optimum, but if only used as "appropriate force level" otherwise someone will be facing severe criminal charges.

I have a can of "Bear Spray" which is long lasting, strong and has 9 seconds of spray and will spray out to 30 feet. It isn't cool to have to walk or ride through your own cloud of spray hanging in the air. Additionally, the warnings are that it can cause permanent blinding in humans.

This is an interesting thread and I believe relevant to all of us in a society that seems to becoming increasingly violent. Rising fuel and basic necessity prices are only going to contribute to an increase in crime in any already crime ridden environment.
Violent crimes at least in America have been declining for several years now.

https://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/glance/viort.htm
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Old 07-25-08, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by gregw
...Camel, what products have you used?
I've used several now. I used "Mace" brand pepper/tear gas combo on the Black Bear. The other times I've used pepper spray I bought while on tour (France or ?Spain, Czech Rep-I'm pretty sure it was "Saber" brand), the spray I used on the Tibeten Mastiff was given to me by another rider. I think that was Mace brand pepper.
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Old 07-25-08, 09:06 PM
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Originally Posted by Camel
I've used several now. I used "Mace" brand pepper/tear gas combo on the Black Bear. The other times I've used pepper spray I bought while on tour (France or ?Spain, Czech Rep-I'm pretty sure it was "Saber" brand), the spray I used on the Tibeten Mastiff was given to me by another rider. I think that was Mace brand pepper.
OK well which one can you recommend?
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Old 07-25-08, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by gregw
OK well which one can you recommend?
Too right, sorry!

They all worked effectively for me on animals, so I would recommend one which is easy for us cyclists to get at. I mean get a convenient size. If my memory serves, it was the fog/spray type which I got back into my face due to wind. So I would further recommend a stream type.

The one I currently carry around (not biking) is a saber brand 60gram. It's a bit bulky for a regular shirt front pocket, but would be fine for a bike jersey rear pocket. It fits fine and is easy to get at in a short pants cargo pocket. It will not fit well in my handle bar bag side pockets (jandd bag with side mesh pockets).

The Mace brand models with the attached belt clip, clip into my handle bar bag pockets and don't snag when grabbed.

I also have one of those big Bear deterent sprays (REI had them on super special a few years back), and have it around for car camping in bear country. I'd only carry that one on my person in grizzly areas (so haven't had to). I wouldn't recommend that for cycling as it's too big/heavy, again, unless going through grizzly areas.
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Old 07-25-08, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
To which post was this question directed?
All of them...I suppose. Primarily the original question...
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Old 07-25-08, 11:56 PM
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"I have a couple questions for those who feel they want or need pepper spray to defend against humans. Do you carry it at home too? If not why do you feel the need on tour? Are the areas you tour less safe than where you live?"

Where I live, dogs and bears aren't a problem. Anywhere outside of the city they can be though I haven't been attacked in my home province, by an large.

I think one issue about spray is that if you are carrying it for whatever reason, you need to have a human policy on the stuff. It will be to hand, so it might get turned against you during a mugging , or vice versa. So does that make one want it to be low power, high power etc... Better to think it through.

Pepper spray is different in the different concentrations. Tear gas, for instance, has been widely replaced by spray because the TG "only" causes the pain, nausea, etc... A person can fight through it. Pepper spray is preffered because it also affects respiration, and is more likely to "shut an attacker down". This also means it can be lethal since a person with a problem in respiration could end up seriously affected. You have your light sprays, your real sprays, and your real sprays for animal way stronger than we are. It is worth understanding what you are doing if you spray an attacker. If you were attacked in a way that led you to believe you were in risk of imminent death or bodily harm you can use lethal force. It's just worth understanding that pepper spray is a different kind of thing and does not operate merely by causing pain, which is both the good and bad news.

"In all honesty, I'm more concerned about the dogs than the people. I don't want to hurt a dog more than in necessary to get it off my heels, as I see chasing bikers as something instinctual to them. Maybe I'm too soft-hearted, but I don't want to hurt an animal for doing something that it doesn't do with bad intent."

It's not the chasing I mind, it's the bitting or entangling. I think you a muddying the waters on instinct. We had a pair of mastiff's in our region that tackled and half ate a girl's leg off, along with other serious wounds. Not a cycling accident of course. Shoot first, ask questions later, if you want to. Dogs seem to have a blended personality where they won't touch cars on roads where they chase me, can be held back by their owner's voices, or when left alone will/would drag down deer and cyclist's with impunity. So they obey some laws they have been taught or have learned to respect, can be controlled by their owners directly, but there is another area where they are doing their own legal. It really isn't that different from a serial killer. Those guys have learned what they can and can't do, who they have to be careful around, and then there is that area of their life where they can be playful. Call that area instinct if you like. But it's the area where your humanity (in whatever sense) is indistinguishable to them, from that of a jelly donut. If that makes you feel charity, god help you.

"I personally don't think you need pepper spray to deter dogs anywhere in the continental US."

I've found places in well settled areas in Canada. What I find is the kind of lots where people build on an acre or two in the country, get a BIG dog, leave all day for work, maybe get the dog a companion, leave them outside to do whatever they want. To make maters worse, these homes are every few hundred yards, at times it reminds me of scenes from Black Hawk Down. There is no let-up, and getting off the bike is no salvation unless you want to walk the whole way.
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Old 07-26-08, 12:04 AM
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There is also a good wiki article, assuming any of it is true... Note info on the relative effects to tear gas. The "benefits" of this were emphasised in articles in police and gun journals when PS was being introduced.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pepper_spray
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Old 07-26-08, 07:14 AM
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
I have a couple questions for those who feel they want or need pepper spray to defend against humans. Do you carry it at home too?
I have pepper spray mounted on all my bikes, city and touring, on the seatstays or seattube.

I have used it both in cities and in the country.

Calling it 'dog n driver spray' gets a chuckle out of customers and coworkers at the bike shop.

Here I've got a red bull sized can of Sabre pump strapped below my U-lock on the seat tube- a few practice draws and its as easy to access as a water bottle.
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Old 07-26-08, 07:21 AM
  #36  
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I can certainly attest to the effectiveness of Bear Spray on Canines though. I had occasion to use it in Northern Mi in the Natl Forest while free camping when I couldn't make the official State Campground.

Originally Posted by Camel
Too right, sorry!

They all worked effectively for me on animals, so I would recommend one which is easy for us cyclists to get at. I mean get a convenient size. If my memory serves, it was the fog/spray type which I got back into my face due to wind. So I would further recommend a stream type.

The one I currently carry around (not biking) is a saber brand 60gram. It's a bit bulky for a regular shirt front pocket, but would be fine for a bike jersey rear pocket. It fits fine and is easy to get at in a short pants cargo pocket. It will not fit well in my handle bar bag side pockets (jandd bag with side mesh pockets).

The Mace brand models with the attached belt clip, clip into my handle bar bag pockets and don't snag when grabbed.

I also have one of those big Bear deterent sprays (REI had them on super special a few years back), and have it around for car camping in bear country. I'd only carry that one on my person in grizzly areas (so haven't had to). I wouldn't recommend that for cycling as it's too big/heavy, again, unless going through grizzly areas.
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Old 07-26-08, 07:28 AM
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Why not use a small marine horn? I bought one a month ago, used it a half dozen times so far on tour and around home and find it very effective; a dog with very accute hearing 6 to 10 feet away being blasted by something that can be heard a mile away! (and alert everyone in that 1 mile radius though...)
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Old 07-26-08, 02:14 PM
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There is also Halt II. Here is a blurb:

Halt II dog repellent has stopped attacking dogs since 1966 for the U.S. postal service and many public utility meter readers. Halt II has 285% more effective stopping ingredient than standard halt. Halt causes temporary discomfort to the attacking dog when sprayed in the face, giving you time to retreat to a safe distance.

I bought it from: https://www.omarksafety.com/category....=1&aprodid=148
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Old 07-26-08, 10:30 PM
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Originally Posted by staehpj1
Have you ridden across Missouri or Kentucky? If so how much more numerous or aggressive were the dogs in Mexico?

Last year we were chased maybe 30 or so times on the TA. Of those all but one were in Missouri or Kentucky and the one that wasn't just happened to get away from the owner (as opposed to normally running free).
I haven't riden through either of those, but down there I was chased by dogs at least four or five times a day
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Old 07-26-08, 11:53 PM
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Spray your dog with Halt! and then spray it with regular pepper spray and carefully observe if there's any difference in it's behavior.
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Old 07-27-08, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Muttsta
I haven't riden through either of those, but down there I was chased by dogs at least four or five times a day
That sounds similar to what we found in Kentucky and Eastern Missouri.
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Old 07-27-08, 01:17 PM
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For me,if the dog is big enough that I consider it a threat,I'll pull out the Buck Knife and make it into a jacket.
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Old 07-28-08, 03:07 PM
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...right.
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Old 07-28-08, 04:11 PM
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From the Trans-Siberian Handbook (Bryn Thomas):

"Its possible to rent bicycles in Ulan Bator too. Try Bike Mongolia or Suren. Note that Mongolian dogs like nothing better than to chase foreigners on bicycles."
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