ricohman

Nothing. I just want another new bike!

cyccommute 

I'll have to disagree. Part of the reason I chose Phils is the ease of repair over the Shimano. A single 5 mm allen wrench will take them completely apart. Not so the cup and cone Shimano. Additionally, the rear assembly comes apart on the Phil so you don't have to remove the cassette to replace a drive side spoke...one of the worst roadside hassles there is.

As for a crank, the Shimano Hollowtech II external bearing crank is far superior to any of the square tapers ever made. Again, a single allen wrench will fix it.

The ease of repair of threadless headsets is why I've chosen them over conventional headsets. Kings are just pruty

stevage

The way you set up and pack you bike is going to have a greater effect on handling and "greatness" than subtle differences between the various dedicated touring bikes on the market.

Steve

vik 

Square taper BBs are robust, inexpensive and ubiquitous. External bearing BBs put the bearings outside the BB where they are more easily contaminated and increase the q-factor of the crank. Not to mention they cost a lot more than a square taper BB and they require the BB to be very precisely faced or the bearings won't be aligned correctly. Square taper cranks are available the world over at low cost should you need a replacement. I have a Hollowtech II crank/BB on my MTB and IMO it's not superior to a square taper BB/crank in any practical way - it's just more $$$ and more maintenance.

The Shimano hub is also ubiquitous and can be repaired/serviced by just about anyone anywhere. Given the cost and the quality it's a great deal for a touring bike. A bike shop in rural Mexico is going to have the tools and parts to over haul your Shimano hubs.

I'm not super familiar with all the details of the Phil BB and hubs - do they use bearings that will be stocked by most LBS anywhere you are touring? Do they require any non-standard bike tools to work on? Given the cost differential between a Phil's part and a Shimano Deore/LX part you have to ask yourself if there is a performance/benefit to match.

Booger1

Read my tag line...

Best update for touring in the last 30 years,Shimano Freehubs,the rest is window dressing.How many gears do you really need,a couple for uphill,a couple level ground(with/against the wind).I'm touring,I don't push pedals going downhill,I'm busy trying to take in the sites and remembering that I'm riding a bike so I don't ride off a cliff.

I've broken a few spokes on the road over the years,never had to take the freewheel off on the road and won't need to remove my new cassette either.Cost .80c and about 20 min.to repair,big deal.Did break a rear hub from a bent axle many, years ago,that's not much fun.

cyccommute 

I've been using splined bottom brackets for many years and never found any problems with them. The larger bolt used to fix them to the crank also allows for better self extractors than the old 6mm ones. Although I have few problems with cranks working off (I torque all of my crank bolts and have since the mid-80s), I've had fewer problems with splined than with square taper.

I've not noticed any issues with contamination of the external bearing BB. They are very well sealed units and seem to hold up just fine. The larger bearing tends to be less creaky than internal BBs.

Q-factor? It's not really something I lose sleep over And the cost of a crank and BB is on a par with an external bearing crankset when you consider that it comes as a package deal.

There is nothing wrong with cone and cup hubs but they are not easily serviceable on the road without special tools. At the very least you need wrenches, one of which is pretty useless for anything but the hub. And you need different sizes for front and back.

Bearings are standard cassette bearings that are widely used and widely available. And all that is needed for complete disassembly is a 5 mm allen wrench. Axel, bearings and freehub come apart once the lock nut is removed.

vik 

The issue with splined BBs is that to make the spindle's larger diameter than a square taper BB then had to make the bearings smaller and so they'll wear out faster. Some companies then tried using two sets of smaller bearings on each side of the BB [like FSA]. In order to get back to a larger sized bearing with a larger spindle two approaches were tried: 1) the oversized BB shell and 2) the external bearing idea you like.

Having your bearings outside the BB shell with exposes them to the elements far more than a sealed square taper BB unit. They are also not going to be easily replaced if you are traveling further afield than a well stocked LBS in a reasonable sized city in the first world.

Unless I am mistaken a Phils BB takes a special tool to install/service that you'd better carry with you if you want to deal with it on the road.

This is the great advantage to using parts that are ubiquitous ....you don't need to carry any special tools since even a basic bike shop in Mexico is going to have the tools and bearings to overhaul your hubs.

Nigeyy

Sorry but I think the question is a little unfair. What is best for one person, is not the best for another. And sorry to sound really trite, but the best touring bike is probably the one you use the most! But, if pushed for an opinion, I'd say:

At the moment I can't get bored at looking at my Dawes Sardar (old model). It has beautiful paintwork (metallic marmite brown to metallic bottle green depending on the angle you look at it), 26" wheels, disc brakes (but with the mountings for other types of brakes), touring specific stuff such as 3 bottle cages, spoke holder, and a comfortable geometry. I've been 50mph on it with no problem and it felt rock solid. However, the Sardar was a mass produced bike, and though I think it's probably the best bike for me I realize some people want 700c wheels, a lighter bike, or perhaps a more exclusive bicycle, or a different colour scheme. I totally understand why some people have mentioned Cannondale, Thorn, Rocky Mountain, etc.

So, with this in mind, I'd say the best touring bike in the world would be undoubtedly from a high quality custom frame builder (preferably the UK, but that's only because I'm from there, no other reason), that has comfortable and solid geometry yet is light weight, lugged (got to love old fashioned lugs), made from the best quality material (steel since I would like it to be lugged), has a mouth watering colour scheme, has a quality head badge that is unique and distinctive, is able to take multiple brake types (and in my dream multiple different wheel sizes without it adversely affecting handling), has all touring specific frame add ons (e.g. water bottle holders, spoke holder, etc) and is specced according to my list of components.

Edit: the frame should be able to accomodate internal gearing as well as derailleurs.

I'd think you could get this mythical bike from many sources around the world though -but it would cost quite a bit! Ant bikes and Vanilla bikes here in the States are 2 bike manufacturers I'd use if I was very wealthy -I don't think I've ever seen a mediocre or ugly Vanilla bicycle; they only seem to come in one style: beautiful.

Nigeyy

+1

Done many thousands of miles on splined bottom brackets and never had a problem either -and I'm no lightweight. Mind you, I've also used square taper bbs without issue as well. I know theoretically splined aren't supposed to be as good, but then again, if I find something works, I don't care much for theory!

Food for thought: theoretically, I'd bet using an open system transmission system dependent on a chain with forced jumping from cog to cog just can't be a good idea.

Mr. Jim

The best touring bike is the one you get out and ride. Simple as that, if it's good enough for what you are doing and your are enjoying yourself, it's the right bike for the job. I've got many a mile on old Schwinn Varsitys, not built for it, heavy as hell, still some of the best tours I ever did.

vik 

Rohloff would agree with you...

NoReg

"Sorry but I think the question is a little unfair. What is best for one person, is not the best for another."

Right, but that just leads to no answer. The OP specifically asked:

"is there a builder out there that lay's claim to this title im sure there must be.you see a lot of this thing going on with car's /motorbikes and such like."

On that basis there can be only one and we know the name: Robert Beckman. He absolutely claims to be the best at everything and while I am skeptical to some extent, I think he has a reasonable claim:

- Actually tours/toured a lot.

- Been in the industry for a long time and has had several successful touring only companies

- Has assisted others, been copied by others, or mirrored by others.

- Makes a totally integrated package from bags to frames

- Makes a lot of sense. I don't agree with all his stuff, but he does think it through in minute detail.

I think one can roll out some skepticism, but I won't bother because I, and most others, have never seen one of his bikes, so the skepticism, is not tested and could be unfair.


Commotion comes up a lot. The pros are that they seem to produce a product that people like. They have happy customers.

The cons are that the part of the Tandem bike they adopted for the Americano is largely bogus, but that's OK, it's not even their only touring bike. Also, judging by their catalog, they are a factory, which is actually good, but it does get away from the artisanship aspect. Their product is probably better for it but they are the best frame building corporation, if that spins your wheel. They biuild all kinds of other bikes, so they lack focus.

I would go for Phil stuff in an instant, but I do share Viks concern about the BB key. I think their freewheel stuff rocks, and I have several freewheel bikes still and don't have a problem. Also, cone wrenches are really light all things considered, you only really need to carry one, along with the small adjustible wrench I carry anyway. I am trying to migrate all parts to Allens but until I do, the cones aren't a problem. Cone hubs have nice large bearings in them, and are easy to rebuild from scratch.
I have had problems with square BB cranks, largely that they loosen when they are settling in. A new bike will need a big wrench at about the 500 mile mark. OK if your bike is well broken in. It's still my favorite system.

antokelly

ah ha a name at long last mind you i've never heard of him so i'll just google it and have a look thanks.

Nigeyy

Yes, but if you read my entire post instead of the first couple of lines....

Nigeyy

Undoubtedly. And one day, when I have the money, I'd love, love to try the internal hub (really wished I'd got an internal hub for my folder, but that's another story) -but until then I and many other people -and most likely the vast majority of tourers -will have to make do with doing the miles using derailleurs.

Sadly

cyccommute 

If the bearings were open, then exposure to the elements might be a problem but all of the external bearings I've seen are very well sealed. Well enough that you can throw mud at them on a mountain bike and not worry about it.

This is what the hub looks like after you use a single...okay maybe two...5 mm allen wrenches on it



Absolutely no other tool is needed to completely disassemble the hub.

antokelly

work of art.

vik 

Being able to ride them in the mud is not the same as long term durability. The test will be how many miles you get on them before you need to replace them. Hopefully that will happen somewhere they stock the bearings to replace the worn out ones.

I'll be interested to see if some of the smarter touring bike manufacturers spec their bikes with external bearing cranks. So far Surly, Trek & Thorn are sticking with inboard bearing cartridge BBs.

Thanks for the photos of the Phil hub. My comment you quoted was about the Phil BB.

NoReg

"Yes, but if you read my entire post instead of the first couple of lines.... "

Sorry to pick on you, ther were plenty of other people doing the same thing, yours was just the last one in the line I could grab a quote from before the whole thing went OT about components.

I think the current White Touring bike Vanilla has up is gorgeous, though overall their look is a lot more impressive that the bikes themselves. And I don't think they claim to be the best maker of touring bikes there is, they don't really fit the OP's request. They are not focused the way Beckman is. Beckman is the only one I know who fits the bill. The problem with Beckman's business plan is it has almost made him unknown.

That said, I don't think we have to stick with the OP's question if we don't want to, but the answer was so obvious and nobody seemed even to be in the right county.

roadfix

You could have given me that $50.
I would have fixed that tire for you AND sent you off with a FREE saddle bag containing 2 spare tubes, tire irons, patch kit, a CO2 kit, and a power bar.

Bridgestoned

I'm with you on the durability factor of square taper BBs. My Syncros Ti BB circa 1992, has outlived 3 MTBs and is now on a tandem, that doesn't see any off road use. I still use some Shimano UN 92s/XTR and 72s/XT mid 90's BBs that are still smooth, ie no play in the bearings, maybe too smooth from overuse. And the low Q factors of these BBs are a must, for me.

This is not to say that the new outboard bearings from Shimano at least, have a shorter life span. The old stuff lasts so long, I don't see the need for a change, yet. I guess if I crossed over to the dark side, like some friends who absolutely must have the latest groupset, each and every year, I'd love the new stuff too.

paxtonm

The answer to the question is manifest if you take the trouble to inform yourself. For me (6-4, 215 lbs) the answer is a 64 cm frame, oversized tubing, lugged. I'm waiting on a King of Mercia, 72 degree angles, o/s 725 tubing, investment cast lugs. I've specified every angle and tube in the thing. Built with a Phil bb, King Headset. Salsa a-stem, Nitto Noodle bars and seatpost, Champion Flyer saddle, Cafam brakes, Cane Creek levers, XT derailers, XT hubs on Synergy rims, bar-ends, Nitto rack, gel pads, leather bar tape, Sugino XD crankset, XT cassette, Sram chain ...

It's not the definitive ride, but it's my definitive ride. To me, it will be beautiful, functional and a partner for many years.

It's cruel to say, but having ridden seriously since the 70s, the way to build a perfect bike is to ride, ride, ride. The answers will emerge eventually. Everything else is bound to be frustrating.

collings

Wow, those vanilla's look sweet. Five year wait list, wow.

Nigeyy

I love that quote! I also want to add something to it -that your answers will also be in all likelihood continually emerging and changing over time as your body ages and your attitudes change.

bragi

Dude, a little work on your punctuation and grammar would make your posts a lot easier to read. I'm sure the content is well worth reading, if only I knew what it was...