So what makes the Sojourn so heavy? It's a Reynolds 520 frame with a Cro-moly fork. The disc brakes add some weight. Otherwise what's the difference? 7 pounds heavier than LHT?

And almost all stock tig welded steel touring frames (Surly, Fuji, Novara, ect...) are made on Bike Island (Taiwan), out of the same quality tubing, and even by the same frame shop (Maxway). Many touring bikes are generic frames branded to whoever sells them. (Surly doesn't do this, however, but there are several Fuji clones out there)

That is a tank. My 20 year old 62cm Nishiki with front and rear racks (rear is Surly Nice rack=heavy), full fenders, generator hub/ full lights, and a Brooks weighs just under 32lbs. Good job Raleigh for TRYING to make a touring bike. I don't know what the price is on the Raleigh, but imagine it is around or a bit more than the Surly LHT. With the Surly you get better parts in many places that count (XT 36h hubs, XT rear derailleur, and a real touring triple crank) for the price that is tour ready just add racks and/or fenders. I think it is good that Surly cheaped out on a few areas (seat, saddle, bars, stem, etc.) since they can keep the cost down and figure most people with have a preferred cockpit of their own they want to put on the complete.

I have a friend that is currently doing a few month long tour to warmer places (now in Texas), and he hasn't had a single problem from his brand new purchased before the trip LHT. Would he have trouble if he bought a Sojourn, yes, at least the wheels for sure. It was his first tour and I know he over packed. His fully loaded bike was close to 100lbs. The 32h wheels of the Raleigh would have not survived.

And earlier in the thread talking about touring with disc brakes. Every disc brake you are going to see on a touring bike with drop bars is going to be cable actuated so there is no need for extra fluid/bleed kit etc. The most I think you would need with touring with disc brakes would be spare pads and a spare rotor or two (or a tool to true one also).

I won't comment about "in the industry".

No need to talk about cheap to me. I rode a Windsor Touring ($599) across the country and plan to tour on it for years to come. I think it is a good enough bike that spending more would not substantially change the touring experience. I've never ridden an LHT, but I will say that the specifications look like how I would have spec'ed a touring bike other than I would have gone for STI.

Interestingly I find the areas where they cheaped out to be good choices.

I also agree; certainly a saddle is a personal choice. If you don't like a Brooks, I'm not sure you'd want to pay that premium for a Sojourn. If I was marketing a touring bike I'd also want to put on the cheapest but reasonable quality saddle and provide an uncut steerer tube and a cheap stem. Perhaps put on cheap handlebars too.

Meanwhile, in the real world, on the bike shop floor.... the Sojourn looks and feels like a quality touring bike. I'm guessing it is. Even adding in the cost new wheelset and 26 tooth chainring, it's really great value.

I've said this before--- all bike companies cheap out somewhere on the build to save money. I'd rate the LHT wheelset as somewhat better than the Sojourn wheelset-- but nether are all that hot. Fuji wheels have been crap, total crap for years. Those come back to the shop messed up even if the riders don't tour. The Novara and C'dale wheelsets are the best out of the box (both use Mavic rims BTW)

What the sojourn does is make a lotl the touring bikes spec'd better next year. It's a $1200 bike with $50 fenders, $50 Brooks bar tape, $40 fancy bars, $150 Brooks saddle, $30 pump, $60 rack and a great powdercoat.

Stock it comes with a set cheap wheels and 30 thooth small chainring-- OK for commuting and genral riding. Upgrade before touring.

It's really that simple.

I agree that it makes sense not to put premium items in original equipment component choices like the saddle and bars. Since they didn't even address the basics like proper gearing and 36 spoke wheels, it seems especially silly to put on an expensive saddle and bar tape.

I would go a step farther and say that I would find the stuff that they did put on the LHT suitable for a multi month tour and I would happily takes off on another TransAmerica with the stock bike.

I don't really fault Raleigh for spec'ing the bike as they did with 32 spoke wheels and road gearing, because they do not market it as a touring bike (which it isn't to my way of thinking). They mention touring nowhere that I have seen in their material on this bike. Could someone tour on it? Sure. Is it designed as a dedicated touring bike? Not in my mind and not in their description of the bike.

BTW: I have no way of knowing if the weights posted for the Sojourn are accurate, but if they are, that is strike three in my mind since based only on the specifications it is already a very doubtful choice. It looks like a bike not particularly suited to touring with a bunch of fancy doodads that some people go ga ga over added. I said it before, but I think "lipstick on a pig" is a good description. The doodads (Brooks saddle, brooks tape, dirt drops, and disk brakes) aren't even appealing to me.

No, if you'd read the thread, I stated that the Sojourn outweighs my Fuji World by 7 lbs, based on weighing the actual bikes.

Remind me not to let you recommend 'quality' bikes to me. Based on the reality of the bike shop floor, the Raleigh Sojourn is an overly heavy 'hybird' bike with a bunch of bling.

+1 and Raleigh doesn't claim it is anything else. It just isn't a touring bike. It is a hybrid for someone who likes that flavor of bling.

Still if someone said they already had a Sojourn and asked if they could tour on it I would say yes with some qualifications. Like most hybrids you can tour on it, but it definitely isn't a touring bike. If it were a touring bike they might mention the word touring somewhere in the ad copy, no?

Nothing personal, but I think it's important for any prospective buyer to look and test ride the Sojourn. Ask the shop questions. See for yourself. It's a really nice bike with a good mix of old and new ideas. It's the future of touring, like it or not. I didn't like the idea until a built and rode one. I'm a convert. I'll ride one with panniers and f. rack soon and I'll post about handling and toe/heel clip and low speed.

Jeeze-- I'm getting flack from 2 guys riding bikes with cro-moly frames designed 20 years ago, with less than perfect powdercoats, bikes that came stock with the same gearing as the Sojourn, with wheelsets known to give out. Have I said one bad word about the Fuji or Winsor or other brands using generic (but tested) frames to make low budget touring bikes? No. I happen to like the old Fuji style bikes. They are good value for the money.

The Sojourn is a different animal. But it is a touring bike, make no doubt about that. A lot of people are going to love that bike.

I haven't knocked the Sojourn, except as a dedicated touring bike. It is the perfect bike for someone who wants a hybrid with a rack, discs, a brooks saddle and the other bling that it has. Yes many people will buy it and love it. I do maintain that it is not a dedicated touring bike and Raleigh apparently agrees since it is not billed as one. If it was then I would say it was an example of very poor component choice.

In many ways it isn't my cup of tea, but I am sure many of it's owners will love it. Some will even successfully tour on it.

Agreed.

Bicycling list the Sojourn at 33.75 lbs. and I Googled Surly Long Haul trucker & weight and somone posted their bike with rack and fenders at 32.3 lbs! The difference between both bikes is 1.45 lbs, not alot at all. I suspect you can make the LHT lighter but add an extra water bottle and now they are both the same.

This is getting way too funny...

From someone (me) who HAS taken a Sojourn through it's paces, if the Sojourn is the future of touring, I'm the future of American Idol. :lol:

For someone 'in the industry' it seems you are not real knowledgeable...considering you don't know the difference between a Fuji World and a Fuji Touring. :roflmao2:

The Sojourn is an overly heavy hybrid bike with a bunch of bling that might appeal to the clueless. Perhaps that is what it is designed to do, based on your clearly biased misrepresentation of it as anything else?

I think that he may have mentioned the Fuji Touring as the same as the Windsor Touring and not your Fuji World.

I quoted exactly what he said.

OK. I'll bite. What year is your Fuji World? Is it the 2005 with the Reynolds 853 triangle and the carbon fork? That was such a great bike....Fuji made it for what? 2 years? Had XT and Ultegra parts mostly-- but the small chainring was only a 28.

I'm not impressed...

Incorrect, 48-36-26. What does the the standard of future touring bikes, the Sojourn, sport for a crankset again, since it does seem to impress you? :roflmao2:

But still has a carbon fork, right?

duh

If you are going to somehow twist this into a carbon fork debate...it handles a front rack just fine, as proven on two loaded tours since I bought the bike. The frame material and carbon fork are also partially why it comes in at a full seven pounds lighter than the Sojourn (with rear rack, fenders, B17, leather bar tape, barcons, pedals, bottle cages (which were not on the Sojourn we weighed), Road Morph, seat bag and handlebar bag mount). So don't even go there.

If you want the Sojourn to be the future of touring bikes, you best take some examples from some older touring bikes, pal...lighten the thing up (dropping the disc brakes and using a better frame material might help) and gear it better. Oh...better frame materials are more expensive? Replacing the disc brakes and replacing the expensive 'aged' B17 with a standard B17 would probably pay for an extra cost of an 853 frame...and get your overall weight down to the 30lb range, which would be about right. Better gearing should be a wash, cost-wise.

As it is now...you cheaped out the frame to pay for the bling...which speaks volumes.

When I was a kid, I used to work/hangout in a bike shop that had a lot of expensive lugged steel frames hanging above the service counter. *Team issue* frames with all kinds of numbers and words like Tange and Reynolds and Dedacciai. They were the coolest things! I wanted to buy one just to hang in my room and sleep under it an a 7-11 team kit....

But the shop wrench made a wholemade balance beem scale and used to put *team issue* frames on one end and stardard steel ones on the other (db cro-moly). The team ones were lighter of course. Then he's hang a can of beer on the team side, and Presto! the team side was often heavier (or close to even). Riders spent hunderds and hunderds to be *one can of beer lighter*. The reason for doing this? It was the shop wrench's way of telling us kids how to really ride fast. *Don't drink much beer!*. Stay pure! Ride Fast!

Touring bikes weight 60 pounds or more loaded. Reynolds 853 tubing isn't going to help much. with 32mm wide tires or more, Reynolds tubing isn't going help with ride quality either (the real reason for better quality tubing on a road frame) It may, however, help you get dents in the top tube while touring....

So let me get this staight. You walked into a bike shop, with your own scale, and weighed a bike on the sales floor? Did you even ask the shop owner? Did you tell him what a crappy, heavy tank you thought the bike he was selling was?

Again...since you don't seem to get it...7 pounds less bike means I can carry 80lbs of gear instead of 73.

Get this straight...I was in my LBS with my bike...since they were like a block away from work, I needed some tubes before I rode home, and because they are my friends. They just got in a Sojourn and we were all checking it out. I lifted it and said "Man what a tank", so we grabbed the scale and weighed it. Then we weighed not only my Fuji, but a bunch of other bikes, including a Big Dummy that one of the wrenches had just built for himself. That only weighed 43lbs, with freeloaders. Your future standard of touring bikes is only 8lbs lighter than a Big Dummy! :lol:

Yes, I told the shop owner what a tank it was too...but later, when we were discussing why the tank wasn't selling. You see, I have an actual relationship with my LBS...but I guess when you're 'in the industry' customers are just marks for selling bling-heavy hybrids masquerading as touring bikes. :lol:

Any more questions? This is getting kind of fun.

I own a Sojourn. It is a bit heavy, but I am pleased with it anyway. I do plan to switch out the rims and chainrings later before I tour in the mountains. There are several good choices of touring bikes out there in my opinion, not just one or two. Much is a matter of preference. And this thread is one of the reasons I usually just read the forums and not post.

Hey downstream56,

Here's an Ebay wholesaler that you should know about. They sell lots of wheels that would upgrade your Sojourn. Keep your old set as a spare....watch carefully and you'll find a good deal.

http://cgi.ebay.com/2008-XT-Mavic-A7...QQcmdZViewItem

Have fun riding your Sojourn-- it's a good bike I'd be proud to own.

You might find it cheaper to switch out the whole crank. Price it out both ways before deciding. Also I wouldn't wait until going to the mountains, but would get the gearing sorted out before loaded touring anywhere hilly at all.

I agree that there are more than one or two touring bikes on the market right off the top of my head I can think of 7 dedicated touring bikes and I am sure there are more. The Sojourn isn't one of them. That doesn't mean you can't or shouldn't tour on it though. It isn't my cup of tea but a long shot, but with different wheels and gearing it will be fine. If I owned one and liked it I would tour on it, but wouldn't recommend it for someone shopping specifically for a dedicated touring bike.

I think Staehpj1 puts it very succinctly -the Sojourn isn't a bike I'd recommend for a tourer without knowing you are highly likely going to have to spend some money on it if you wish to do some non-lightweight touring.

I fear that some people will buy it for touring, but find out the shortcomings in gearing and rear wheel spoke count. I can't see however, at the price point it is at, many people buying it for a commuter/shopper/urban bike, which it is supposedly marketed as (actually reading the ad copy, it's sort of hard to know what it is being advertized as -apart from being a categorized as a road bike to be ridden with the sky over your head!).

When I first saw the Sojourn, I honestly got the impression Raleigh was putting this out as a tourer, and I had to read the ad copy carefully to realize they do not specifically mention it as a tourer. The specs include: Spoke holders on the chainstays, "Trekking" Double Wall rims, a rack, fenders, pump pegs, bar end shifters, a Brooks saddle etc. All of this (and I think that list can be definitely viewed as touring centric when you put it all together) leads me to wonder if they intended it as a tourer, I don't know?

The whole shame of it -and something that irks me about the bike, I don't know why -is that speccing a 36h rear wheel and an mtb crank surely wouldn't have made it that much more price wise, if at all! Then they could have added the words "tourer" to the ad copy and perhaps opened it out a little more to a different market segment. For me, the implication here is that Raleigh really didn't do their homework -perhaps that's why it irks me. All they needed to do (again assuming they meant this as a tourer) was to send a marketing person into a touring forum such as this.

But I will say this, it is a nice looking bike, and I'm sure it is a nice bike.

I just picked up a Sojourn within the last monthish; so far I'm quite happy. Let me run through the points I saw discussed in this thread over and over:

Weight: The bike is built like a tank. With that as a given, understand that-- while it ain't exactly quick starting out-- it'll run like it's on rails on the downhills and the ride is smooth as butter. (My aluminum hybrid is already starting to gather a bit of dust because of the difference in ride.) I've taken the weight of the bike as sort of a training challenge-- I'm finding myself looking for 11-13% grades on the mountain passes around here to see what it feels like. After all, if you're going touring, wieght is somewhat immaterial... you know you're going to be carrying some, so you may as well get your head around it and move on...

Bar-End Shifters: It's taken a bit of riding but I've come to like the ease of shifting; I've not had a problem crawling up mountain grades yet, so Raliegh must've done their homework on the gearing.

Disk Brakes: My Trek hybrid commuter has disk brakes on it and I've become used to the stopping power-- especially on those rainy day commutes to work-- and I don't think I'd buy a commuter/tourer without disks. Plus, when you get up on the parkway with some of its descents, not having the brakes on the rims isn't all bad... the other day I was riding the brakes to keep it under 30 mph on a twisting 6-8 mile long downhill. Understand that I've got nothing against the canti's or v's,... I think it comes down to personal preference.

Spoke Count/Wheels: I haven't loaded the bike up yet-- other than my commuting gear-- but we'll see what the story might be in the next two months. Summer is coming, after all!

Bells/Whistles: A good portion of the reason I bought the Sojourn-- other than I just really like the look/feel of the bike-- is that I knew that any other tourer I bought I would end up buying a Brooks, fenders, a rack, and a decent pump in short order. Sure-sure, I switched out the pedals to SPDs pretty quick, but the rest of the options are a helluva plus in my book.

All in all, I'm curious to see how the bike feels a little more heavily loaded. I'm planning on a couple of 3-5 trips this summer and fall (a good portion of the BRP is calling this summer, and there is perhaps an Outer Banks or Yorktown-Lynchburg pilgrimage due in the fall) and I'm wondering how the bike'll feel with an extra 30-40 pounds on it.

Anyway, I digress. 'Hope that was helpful.

Pics of Sojourn! Love how these look.

I test rode a Sojourn quite a bit at my local LBS (the same shop I bought my '05 Fuji World at). It looks great, definitely sparks the classy brooks leather bling lust, but overall it didn't feel quite right as either a tourer or road bike.

It *is* a tank. The mountain drops don't work for me at all, I felt like my hands were too splayed out too widely in the drops. I didn't even notice the small spoke count in the shop, but learned that in reading the various Sojourn posts.

This definitely feels like a bike developed by marketing folks. Thinking about this in the walk back from the LBS I thought of the Sojourn as marketed to the commuter looking for a more classy looking alternative to the other high-end commuter bikes out there. Someone not looking to tour specifically but open to the idea of it (and correspondingly doesn't know what to look for in a real touring rig).

On the plus side I think disc brakes are an idea whose time has come on touring bikes - they seem the perfect fit to the rigors of touring.

When you think of it, this bike isn't much heavier than the LHT or Trek 520 after racks and fenders. I don't know why people are saying this bike is a tank? How many 33lb LHTers did we see on this forum in the past year? Even my Jamis Aurora without racks and fenders is 27lbs but if you add them it would past 33 lbs. All my search results on the Raliegh list it at 34lbs not 80 lbs.

OH, I almost forgot, please post pictures! Lots of em!