cliffmat

I'm planning on a round the world tour starting in about a year, and want to invest in THE bike that will last me many happy years!
I've got a million and one questions about it all, but the first thing I'm looking at is the frame material. At the moment I'm trying to decide between titanium or a custom built steel frame. I know there's plenty of dispute between the two materials, but what I'm really wondering is:
Can steal frames really be repaired in the field, and has anyone actually had any experience of it!?

I don't mind spending the money on Titanium, especially since my main concerns about steel are the weight and the fact that it might rust in the unpredictable weather!!

Any thoughts comments or otherwise would be greatly appreciated, thanks!!!

BengeBoy 

One point of view (pro-aluminum, anti-steel).

https://downtheroad.org/Equipment/Bik...epair_Myth.htm

FWIW, the weight difference between a steel frame and a Ti frame is not worth considering for loaded touring. Not enough of a difference to really matter given all the other stuff you're carrying.

Also, your steel frame is not likely to rust unless your tour lasts many years and you badly abuse your frame.

avatarworf

We have steel-framed bikes.

Andrew's developed a crack in Cambodia and we found a French motorbike mechanic in Phnom Penh who, for $25, put things back together (and even matched the paint) so we could keep going.

The join held reasonably well but was starting to separate again when we got to Perth so there we got Quantum, a well known frame-builder in Perth, to get the crack properly repaired. They explained why the join hadn't been properly repaired last time (too technical for me but something about needing to drill holes so the hot air created by the welding itself didn't make a bubble or something inside the frame and cause more stress). Anyway, they did a proper repair job on it so it should be fine now.

So the answer is yes, you can repair a steel frame.

The paint does come off, inevitably, due to scrapes and we cover it with nail polish to prevent rusting.

Weasel9

I'm personally a fan of lugged steel bike frames. I think a properly built lugged steel frame is stronger than a welded one. Just my opinion though. I don't know much about Ti.

However, I do know I wouldn't want to be riding a 4 or 5 thousand dollar Ti bike through some 3rd world countries. Especially since there are so many people that have been around the world several times on an 80's MTB they got at goodwill for $25.

Keep in mind you'll probably want 26" wheels. Good luck on your ATW trip!

Randochap

Not true. Steel tubes like Columbus Zona are made to be welded. The material at the weld actually becomes stronger than the rest of the tube, due to metalurgical properties.

Nothing at all wrong with a lugged frame though, we have generations of great lugged frames to prove that and I've put decades on just one old Nishiki.

Agree it's not really worth spending exrtra on a ti frame (to save a pound) when there are so many good steel frames to be had. However, there are some good ti touring bikes. I don't know how they'd be heavily loaded with the extra flex of ti. I know my ti sport tourer is incredibly comfortable over the long haul.

I personally wouldn't consider aluminum.

Nigeyy

Well, I'm not a materials engineer or anything, but being this is a board, of course I've got plenty of opinions (probably some accurate, some not!):

i. wouldn't surprize me if a steel frame can be repaired.
ii. wouldn't surprize me if a steel frame is usually badly repaired by backwoods in-the-middle-of-nowhere welders
iii. wouldn't surprize me if a steel frame can be very well repaired by a professional bike frame builder or very skilled welder with the right materials.....
iv. but it also wouldn't surprize me if you usually need to book x months ahead to do so, or there won't be one close by when you need them!
v. and finally, assuming you want a frame that is nicely finished, it wouldn't surprize me if the cost of professionally repairing a frame and refinishing easily comes up to the cost of a frame......

Just some thoughts.

Bacciagalupe

As others have said... Ti isn't really worth it. Considering that you can get a top-notch mass-produced touring bike for $1000 - $1600, I wouldn't even go for custom steel unless you have a truly unique physiology, and can't get comfortable with a standard bike frame.

arctos

Toured on lugged steel in the 1970's then a Tig-welded mountain bike in the 1980's and since 1989 a Ti Bruce Gordon Rock N Road with 700x45 tires. The earlier frames had their good points but the RNR design in Ti has kept me very happy touring self contained on and off pavement for the last twenty years.

It combines the best qualities of my former Mondia Special and the Ritchey Team Comp with the comfortable compliance and resilience of the Ti material. An Oversized and Ovalized seat tube addressed the Ti flex issue mentioned above even for a Clydesdale like me with a fully loaded bike.

This rigid bike has miraculously even allowed me to ride the Divide Ride without suspension much to the consternation of other riders I met. Maintenance consists of a little polishing from time to time if I want to do so. It still looks new to me after twenty years and the cost amortized over that time amounts to maybe a latte a week.

Ride what works for your needs and wallet but the RNR in either 26 or 700C wheels, steel or Ti would be on my short list in your situation. BG racks are exceptional as well for the long haul.

BikerBoom

That is a great story and makes me rethink my future touring bike. I looked around your site and could not tell what brand of bike Andrew was riding. I really want to know.

Speedo

You forgot to mention that lugged steel frames look awesome!



Speedo

LesterOfPuppets

I've bent rear derailer mounts back into place on two separate occasions in the field.

Some folks make sure not to leave home without a couple extra replaceable dropouts and achieve similar field repairability. Ooh I made a word!

I imagine if I ever suffered more major frame damage, I'd likely take whatever crappy local weld job I can get, then buy a new frame once I got to the nearest major city.

I really can't afford Ti or custom steel, so never considered either.

Speedo

+1

While I am one who drools over the "ultimate build" threads, I would agree that spending a lot of dosh on a touring bike isn't worth it. Once you've crossed the "rugged enough" threshold (and that doesn't take particularly big bucks) you should be good to go. Why spend a lot of money on something that's going to take a beating.

Speedo

eastbaybob

I was in Thailand when my frame broke. I don't know the proper term but it was at the back of the chainstay, it just cracked. The frame was steel. Once I figured out what the problem was I asked a guy at the gas station where a welder was. 500 meters down the road. I went there they welded it up and I was back riding in less than 20 minutes for 15 baht, about 40 cents US. The bike worked fine for the rest of the tour. I was just on a short tour and when I got home I had the frame replaced on the warranty.

If you read the stuff from the downtheroad people, they are on a years long vacation. So when their aluminum frame breaks, they can send it by FEDEX back to where ever and get a new one. On a two week tour that wasn't an option. They also had a business relationship, and thus a reason to pimp aluminum frames from Koga Miyata, so you have to take their opinions with a grain of salt.

Weasel9

Good point, Speedo. Yeah they look awesome, especially the old Nervex lugs! I love my Paramount...

Honestly, I don't see the point in investing tons of money in a touring rig. It's like buying a brand-new $40,000 SUV that you're going to run on 4x4 roads every day. It's going to get beat to hell. On my next tour, I'm probably going to be riding a Univega I found in the trash! My last touring partner rode an 80's Fuji we assembled 3 days before leaving. I think there are more important things to bring on tour.

If it's comfortable and it rolls, why not?

Chiricocycle

There are stronger steel frames and weaker steel frames. There are many types of steel. There are many possible tubing diameter-thickness-butting-shaping combinations and configurations. There are different frame weights. There are different corrosion resistance characteristics. There are different build qualities.

Some steel frames will last *much* longer than others.

Some will be easier to repair by a wider range of (third world) welders.

Some will be heavier, some much lighter.

Reynolds 953 can make for a very strong frame, and excellent corrosion resistance -- along with extremely good fatigue resistance (better than Ti). It is much more scratch resistant than Ti, and can make for frame that is both light and strong.

Ti can crack and fail -- it has a reputation as a supermaterial, when it isn't exactly so. It scratches and fails more easily than 953. You can confirm this by going to the frame builders' forum. There is a very knowledgeable, trained metallurgist who sometimes posts there.

There are additional steels that are also much stronger than the more commonly seen ones.

I would consider fail-safe as well as safe-fail, especially if you are willing and able to spend the money.

You can read how Tim Travis (downtheroad.org) learned to appreciate equipment that is maximally reliable and unlikely to fail.

Equipment failures can be an enormous hassle, especially in some parts of the world, even if you can get replacements or repairs, locally or by mail. It isn't always easy to find or get to these, or to wait for them. An ounce of prevention (or even more than an ounce) is a better way to go than relying on 'cures.' It's better to go out of your way at the outset -- to set it and forget it, and to have gear that won't let you down.

My suggestion, especially for what you are planning: Choose equipment with optimized reliability or maximum 'mean time between failures' -- equipment that has as low a failure rate as you can find and arrange -- and to make that your first and primary strategy or line of defense against breakages and failures (with repairs and replacements as secondaries or backups that are as unlikely to be necessary as possible).

Sixty Fiver

With a lugged and brazed frame the tubes can be separated from their lugs and replaced if they become damaged... a simple brazing setup and replacement tube is all you need and with a standard 1 inch tube size finding a spare should not be hard to do.

A lugged bottom bracket is very strong and if well made should never cause any problems whereas a welded bb may suffer from issues stemming from overheating... as a mechanic I have seen a good number of cracked bottom brackets on welded frames but it is rare to see a lugged frame with these issues.

For the long haul I would pick a lugged frame due to its ease of serviceability in the event of mishap as a person with basic skills would be able to repair it properly whereas repairing a welded frame is a little more difficult.

On many bikes the welds at the chainstay seem to be a very vulnerable point as this is where a lot of load is concentrated... my friend's Kuwahara mtb developed a crack at the rear dropout (a common problem with 1984 - 1985 Kuwaharas) and our local frame builder manufactured and then replaced the stock dropouts with new ones for $100.00.

The bike should be good for another 25 years of riding as it is otherwise still perfect.

jabantik00

i have an aluminum seatpost rack that failed near bozen, italy. it took several days to find someone who would work aluminum. any number of welders, radiator shops, tractor/automobile services, etc could have fixed it if it was steel.



good luck finding someone to work aluminum, titanium, magnesium, cf, etc if you don't speak the language. many thanks to lageder in bozen! danke!

Rowan

I have a steel Fuji Touring. The rear right dropout broke when the bike was knocked over by a gust of wind and pivoted on the QR skewer, breaking the dropout on two sides of its triangle.

I repaired the dropout myself using braze welding. I would not have been able to do this with aluminium, titanium, or carbon fibre. Yes, I do have moderate skills in brazing and welding. It happened prior to a 400km randonnee which I subsequently completed without knowing the break had occurred. Had it happened on tour, I simply would have sought out somewhere that would provide me with the tools to make the repair.

I expect to get another 60,000km or so out of the bike.

I am sorry, cliffmat, but you give me the impression that you are like so many dreamers. I mean this nicely. What you have to do is go and get a bike of some sort that is suited to touring, and get touring NOW. Weekends away, a few camping trips, finding out what works and doesn't.

You ask questions of an audience here and expect some guidance only because that audience already has a breadth of experience at what you want to do. Even then, there will be divergence of opinion on some issues, which might (a) leave you in total confusion, or (b) leave you with your original opinion because a lot of those answers aren't what you want to hear.

But ultimately, our opinions will have been formed by experience in the process of doing rather than dreaming and asking a million questions.

In short, Ti is nice, but for the same money, you can go a custom steel bike built by a reputable framebuilder which should fit you like you wouldn't believe -- something an off-the-shelf titanium frame might not achieve.

JohnyW

Hi,

I made in the last 12 years at lot of short trips (up to 5 weeks) all on aluminium frames.

1. Never broke a frame
2. Once a car crashed into bike and the frame was bowed - it was possible to cycle again - but the frame has to be exchanged after the tour
3. It can happen that you have to upload your bike to public transportation. Especially in poor countries they don't take care of your bike and destroy the varnish. So steel can have rost problems.
4. Welding is nearly everywhere possible.

I have a 26" MTB frame. If I'd make a world tour and the frame brakes. I'd would order a new and let it send to the next major city. Either I would go there by bus or buy a cheap local frame (26" or nearly every available) and cycle to the next major city. If I had a steel frame I would weld it - but I also would exchange the frame - because I wouldn't trust it (it was the same with bowed frame - I could cycle but I didn't feel confident).

So from my point of view the material isn't an important question - because I would solve the problem in a similar way.

Thomas

avatarworf

True that a bike can be badly repaired but it's also true that many times the weld can hold until you can get somewhere half decent (the next big city). The second framebuilder we went to in Australia (Quantum) recommended super glue and parachute cord to keep a crack stable until you can get it fixed properly.

Our welding job with Quantum didn't take weeks to organise, just a few days, and it didn't cost anywhere near a new frame. Less than A$400 for some fairly extensive repairs/reinforcements to both bikes.

avatarworf

It's a custom built bike from Rob Mather, a guy in England. I think he's stopped building bikes for the moment. Last I heard he was going to work through a backlog of orders and take a break.

EatMyA**

Just to comment on the bold area.

That might be just advertising from manufacturers. They only state half of the story.

All steel becomes "stronger" at the welds, all of it. That is the problem. if its too "strong" it means its too brittle, it is not as "weak", it does not flex as much under stress, and thats where the snaps/cracks/breaks/failures happen. The lugged frames do not heat the tubes as much, so the area does not become more brittle.

lugged frames also have their potential problems. They can hide poorly cut tubes. since you cant see it, they can also hide a poor job. If the lug itself is not manufactured properly it can also fail.

Although todays "welded" (the term is not even correct, but whatever) bicycles are in my opinion more than adequate enough for the job they are doing, I think an equally quality level lugged frame might be a bit more durable.

But since they are both overkill wichever you choose you are going to be alright in. Both can be repaired just as easy by anyone with a welder, but a lugged frame can have a WHOLE tube replaced much easier by a frame builder than a welded frame. plus the repair can be done so that it looks as good as when it was new. If the looks dont matter though the welded frame will usually be a much cheaper alternative, that works just as good.

awc380

Man how much stuff did you have on that rack?
Of course it broke...

MichaelW

Most people who build good touring bikes use steel because it suits the small workshop/small production run environment and it is an excellent material. There are very few Ti builders who make touring bikes and those that do make lighter styles (ie light-med, not expedition tourers). This is nothing to do with the lightness of the material, just the overall style of the bikes they chose to make.
The extra loadbearing requirements demand a heavier guage of tube so you wont get a raceing-light bike in steel, al or ti.
In the Uk we have many excellent steel constructors such as Thorn, Bob Jackson, Mercian, Roberts, Mathers, Hewitt. All of them build touring bikes that are well proven and can be made stock or to your specifications and are surprisingly lightweight.
I like steel because you can add or move brazeons fairly easily. I had luggage rack eyelets added to a steel bike.
The steel tubesets have evolved of many decades to give the correct amount of stiffness, comfort and resistance to rough handling at minimal weight. In practice, quality touring steel does not rust to destruction; there are steel bikes with many decades of regular use behind them.

Personally I think the biggest bike dilemma for world tourists (with the cash) is whether to use a Rohloff hub or not. This has implications for the rest of the bike in terms of dropout design, BB type, handlebars and cable routing.
My own tourer, an old lugged Bob Jackson is a little squirelly compared to modern style designs with fatter tubes but is lighter than a standard Al hybrid bike. It uses horizontal dropouts which give you the option of reverting to singlespeed should Bad Things happen.

avatarworf

How robust are the Rolhoffs? Quantum were really surprised we didn't have them and seemed to think them indestructible. I am a bit sceptical that anything is really so 'bombproof' and wouldn't want to try and replace a Rolhoff somewhere remote.