Another GPS Thread
 

I'm considering a GPS unit for my bicycle. I'm wondering if others are as well.

Here's what I'm thinking. Last year, on my tour along the Northern Tier I missed a couple turns and rode past one potential campground. Missing the turns meant I stayed on the main highway - lots of traffic, no shoulder - instead of pulling off onto one of the bucolic backroads that ACA routes prefer. When I missed the campground I ended up in a motel, and I was lucky to get the last room because of a softball tournament in town.

• I want a GPS on which I can enter my route in advance. I understand you can download the GPS data for the ACA routes from their website. That would be a must, because there are several ACA routes I want to try in the future.
• I want to be able to change my route on the road. In other words, I don't want to be dependent on my home computer to enter routes.
• I want to know where restaurants, grocery stores, campgrounds, motels, historical attractions, bike shops, etc. are.
• I want it to work under a tree canopy. (I had an Etrex I bought for my kayak. When I took it backpacking it had a lot of trouble receiving a signal in the woods.)
• I'd like to have an altimeter. I'd like to be able to download my routes onto my computer after I get home and have a display of the elevation. This isn't crucial, but it would be fun and interesting.

I've looked at the Garmin Etrex Vista HCx, the Garmin GPSMap 60CSx, the Garmin Oregon, and the DeLorme Earthmate PN-40. I've also looked at the Garmin Edge series, but they don't seem as well suited to a tourer, and the one with mapping is awfully expensive.

Any thoughts, anyone?

I don't think any of them are quite 'there' yet. I used an Etrex Vista HCx on my tour last year, and I'd say that the interface is really clumsy, the screen too small to be really useful, the vector graphics are completely rubbish, and the thing kept locking up when it lost satellite signal in the mountains. And it's pretty battery-hungry too, even with Lithium Energizers, making it not a great choice for a multi-week tour.

There's a device available in the UK called 'Satmap Active 10' which looks a lot more useful, because it has a fairly large screen and uses scrolling bitmap Ordnance Survey maps instead of Garmin's vector graphics. Maybe something similar is available over there?

I've been through the same thought process as you, and I bought the Garmin eTrex Vista HCx last year, mainly for the POI (points of interest) database - gas stations, motels etc. Here are my thoughts:

1. The HCx line is much more sensitive than the earlier models. While sometimes my eTrex would lose track next to large bluffs on the KATY trail, it was mostly rock solid in terms of keeping a signal. It can even pick up the satellites in my house. The newer receivers really are a jump in quality from earlier models.

2. The big differences between the eTrex and the 60CSx are as follows: First of all, the 60CSx has a better, external helix antenna (you also have the ability to attach external antennae if even more sensitivity is required). The eTrex has an internal antenna, and no ability for external. So the 60CSx has the edge in picking up and keeping a signal. Second, the screen on the 60CSx is a bit bigger. I don't know if the resolution is any different. Third, the 60CSx is quite a bit bigger than the eTrex - it's longer, and the antenna sticks out more. This can make it harder to mount on your handlebars, especially if you have a handlebar bag. My impression was that the 60CSx is more for hand-held use (it looks like a walkie talkie) and it also has the buttons all on the front, which is much more ergonomic than the eTrex. The eTrex has a little joystick on the front, mysteriously placed above the screen so that your hand is always over the screen when manipulating it. Weird design. HOWEVER... for bicycle use, I'd probably still go for the eTrex (though I really like the 60CSx), mainly because of the smaller size. Otherwise, they are probably largely identical in terms of software - they both have expandable SD card slot (that's the 'x' in the model) and color screen (the 'C') and I'm not sure what the 'S' stands for, but it's probably something to do with 'sensitive', since that's it's speciality with the helix antenna.

3. The eTrex screen is tough as nails. Literally. The only scratch I have on mine is from a nail board I accidentally left next to it in the handlebar bag one night. Otherwise, it's spotless. I think they made it of some super-tough material, which is very nice. I wouldn't like the new touch-screens as much, frankly, because they are softer and I don't want to be always smudging the screen with my fingers. However we might get one of the touch-screen Nuvi units for the car eventually - they are actually quite nice.

4. The Garmin City Navigator software allows you to load the entire street-level maps for North America (including Canada) onto a 2GB mini-SD card. This includes the POI database. However, in practice, this database is not to be counted on, especially in the middle of nowhere. There were many instances on my trip last summer where I looked for motels and grocery stores in little towns, and it came up blank. So I would then call my wife at home, she would use Google, and find stuff. Obviously they didn't (couldn't) include a full yellow pages for the entire country; not even close. What's frustrating is looking at what they chose to include - weird stores like knitting supplies or lumber, which have little or nothing to do with what travelers will generally be interested in. Sometimes the selection seems totally random. I wish they would cull the database of useless entries, and focus on those things that travelers need - lodging, grocery stores, gas stations etc. Having said all that, the POI database is often very useful, but more so in the larger towns. You can usually just find a Super 8 or whatever, and be routed directly to it. Don't get me wrong - it does work, it's just not complete by any stretch.

5. Routing: I never made my own routes on the unit; I just put it into 'bicycle' mode (in the setup) so that it wouldn't try to take me on highways. I usually had a rough idea of where I wanted to go, so what I would do usually is find the next small town and say "take me there", and it would do the job admirably most of the time - often on the same route that I had pre-planned on my map. The only times it didn't do a stellar job in the routing is when it came to differentiating between dirt roads and highways. Sometimes I would be going along a very nice road in the middle of nowhere, which the GPS thought was some kind of highway, and it would keep trying to get me off this nice road onto little dirt tracks. That was occasional, and actually quite amusing (because you can simply look ahead on the route to see where it wants to take you, and decline the turn - it recalculates the route almost immediately when you decline a turn, which is GREAT). I love the routing on the eTrex HCx. We also use the unit all the time in the car, and it has become our best friend on the road - any new town in the country, we are never, ever lost now. It's quite amazing. It doesn't talk to us (as the newer Nuvi car units do) but the little beeps are very audible and quite fine for me.

6. Cost: I'm not thrilled with Garmin's policy of locking City Navigator to one single GPS unit. You have to register the software with that particular unit. If you get another unit, you have to buy City Navigator all over again, which seems a little restrictive somehow, but it's their call. Garmin currently make the best GPS on the market, so they get to call the shots. HOWEVER: One of the big attractions of the DeLorme PN-40 (which I've looked at recently) is the ability to get a subscription to their maps for just $30 per year (VERY reasonable, Garmin take note that I'd be more than happy to pay that every year) for all-you-can-eat downloads of any and all of their maps, including topo and satellite imagery! One of the great things about the PN-40 is it can display Google-Earth-like image overlays, which is mind blowing. However I asked about comparing the PN-40 to the Garmin GPS on the DeLorme forums, and the overall impression I got was that the Garmins still have a slight edge - but look out for DeLorme, because they seem to be improving in leaps and bounds. The main deal breaker for me was the battery life - the PN40 only gets a few hours, whereas the eTrex can last a lot longer (a week or two with the Energizer lithiums, which are HIGHLY recommended - they are expensive, but they ROCK - lighter than alkalines, and really worth it for the road). Here's the thread:

http://forum.delorme.com/viewtopic.php?t=17118

Overall, I'm extremely happy with the eTrex Vista HCx. I used to have a Magellan SporTrak from 2003 or so, and it was frankly awful - slow to grab satellites, inaccurate (it would show us traveling about 50 feet off the road, consistently, with no way to correct it), the memory was pitiful (16MB), and the screen was mono. But the newer units really have advanced to the point where they are actually really useful, not toys any more. Color screens, fast processors, sensitive receivers, expandability, you can just load up the entire country in one go, the POI databases (which will hopefully get better over time), the routing... these things rock. If you get one, you'll fall in love, even with all the little quirks and flaws. They are that good, you just find yourself forgiving stuff all over the place.

One of the best gadgets I have purchased in recent years!

Neil

I have an Garmin Vista HCx and quite happy with it. However there are some quirks, or rather self induced design features, that can be frsutrating - not deal breaking by any stretch, but frustrating neverthe less. Note that some of this could be problems with the user (me :rolleyes:) not spending enough time to really learn the interface and different buttons to press at different times/places in the interface.

To comment on your points:

1. I want a GPS on which I can enter my route in advance. I understand you can download the GPS data for the ACA routes from their website. That would be a must, because there are several ACA routes I want to try in the future.
   Can't imagine a GPS device that doesn't offer this. Question is how to do the route on your PC, using the MFR's own product like Map Source (in Garmin's case) or other commercial map software. Or go the "free" way and figure how to DL the maps onto the device. I use Map$ource and the normal transfer setup via the USB cable.
2. I want to be able to change my route on the road. In other words, I don't want to be dependent on my home computer to enter routes.
   hmmm, depends what you really mean by change the route. You can certainly choose to go off the calculated route between two waypoints, the GPS units will just recalc the route dynamically as you go. This presumes to some extent that you have another way to get from point A to point B in mind, and that it actually can be done. I have just "freelanced" an alternate route many times, but bear in mind that in unknown territory you may just end up going in a big circle or the dreaded "make U-turn" I found this technique really usefull to avoid traffic or some imposing looking hill or just to go down a scenic looking strech of road.
   If you really want to make up a new routes that encompasses many waypoints, that can be done via the pretty primative GPS interface, and is equivalent to just scrolling around on a 2" screen and clicking waypoints as you go - not a particularilly fun time let me assure you, but definetly do-able with some patience.
3. I want to know where restaurants, grocery stores, campgrounds, motels, historical attractions, bike shops, etc. are.
   This is a given on most GPS's (it is on mine for sure) and is one of the unmitagated joys of using a GPS for a tour. There are some gotchas though, like the store might of closed, bike shops are mainly motorbike shops etc... but I used this feature a lot :thumb:. I would get close to the end of my biking day and start looking for food/resturants followed by lodging/camp grounds
4. I want it to work under a tree canopy. (I had an Etrex I bought for my kayak. When I took it backpacking it had a lot of trouble receiving a signal in the woods.)
   Tis my understanding that the Vista HCx has enhanced satelite reception ability above some of its cousins, howvere I never used it in a deep woods environment. I've biked through forrests though and never had a problem. YMMV
5. I'd like to have an altimeter. I'd like to be able to download my routes onto my computer after I get home and have a display of the elevation. This isn't crucial, but it would be fun and interesting.
   Yep, my HCx has the altimeter and yes it was fun and interesting. Just remember to reset it at the corrects points so you have a good idea of max altitude for a particular leg of your tour as opposed to the ride you did last week with Uncle Bill.
   

IMHO it would be best to compliment the GPS with a full set of paper routes - I did and used both together. A 2" screen it just too hard to help you conceptulize where you are going and to read the topology (assuming you have a map w/topology). Battery consumption is an important issue too. I generally saw about 3 days of use before I had to get new batteries (2 x AA). I used Lithium mostly - def better capacity, but not cheap. You might be able to use a solar charger (or even wind), I would think about that option for a really long trip. One last but very important note. AFAIK, no current GPS unit has the ability to route based on grade info or total climbing required between point A and point B for example

i was thinking of buying a handheld gps but than i considered buying a blackberry instead. the maps application shows locations for everything that a gps can find(restaurants, bike shops etc.)
also i believe it can be useful in preventing taking wrong turns since its maps are detailed enough.
plus now when i m asking a girl for her number i would take out a blackberry instead of my 10 year old samsung:)

however i m not sure how well the signal will be when you re in the middle of nowhere..
Has anyone tried using a blackberry on a tour?

A lot of info, but the Garmin Colorado and Oregon make a lot of the cons of the others moot issues. I use a 60csx on the bike, but own a colorado also. Main reason for the 60 on the bike is that if it gets crashed I don't want to trash the Colorado :)

-R

Blackberry GPS only works where you have data service, which means not in the middle of the boondocks where you need it most.

I want to emphasize just a bit more the utility of GPS touring and how it can change your approach to touring. I'd agree with NeilGunton (and who would not;)) and point out that there are different ways to use the routing ability of the GPS. I uploaded a complete collection of my routes out and back across Pennsyvania and I used them every day and 80% of the time that worked OK. However selecting the "right" number of waypoints can be tricky. If you're "freerouting" (i.e. going off the auto seletcted route) you have to be careful the GPS isn't routing you to a waypoint you're no longer interested in and/or is far out of your "way". Its no big deal to delete a way point or to just chose another point to route too and have the GPS just calculate you a new route. Also remember that the highway avoidance setting can involve you going the long way (sometimes very long!) between two points - somtimes that is what you want and sometimes (say at 9pm when you're tired and hungry) not. None of this you can really do on the fly while actualy biking - you're going to have to stop unless you are very dextrous (I'm not).

Did I mention that the GPS will quite happily route you up the very steepest mountain and there is nothing you can do about this? Unless you follow carefully pre laid out routes with carefull selection of waypoints and stick religously to them the auto-routing will somtimes work against you. Different folks, different strokes etc... Double did I mention for taking paper maps as well?

BBT,

I tried using the ACA routes for my trip of the PCH. I found them annoying as they really did not follow the road. They just kind of pointed you in the right direction so you are never really sure that you are on the right road. The ACA routes seemed more trouble than they where worth so I did not use them.

You can route on the Garmin GPS, no need for a PC. The GPS has various preference settings for routing. One of them is bicycle but sometimes it does too good of a job in keeping you safe. There where several times when it tried to take me way out of the way to avoid a "busy" road. But one time I remember in particular, it wanted to take me 30+ miles out of the way, when the real destination was only a few miles. I knew the shortcut and knew it was not all that bad so I took it instead of the recommended routes.

Once past a certain point the GPS will recalculate but it is still going to try and take you the safest route for bicycle.

You can set it to car and then pick options to avoid freeways, that seems to do a little better job.


One feature I wish it had was an option to consider elevation changes in routing. Sometimes it is faster to go a few miles further and avoid a shorter distance over the mountains. Then again you might prefer the climbs and it would be nice to be able to pick the route with lots of climbs.

That is completely opposite my experience, but I didn't use the AC maps for the PCH. I wonder if the difference is personal preference or the difference between the routes. I took the AC maps on the TA and carried a GPS for part of the TA. The AC maps were so easy to follow and so complete that I sent the GPS home after about a week. I might carry the GPS if I were doing a non AC route, but didn't see any need on the TA. In 10+ weeks we were never lost once, except in one place where we lost the addenda and a road had been removed. The GPS database would have not been current enough to show the change either and if we had and paid attention to the addenda we would have been fine. As it was we looked for a road that no longer existed for a while before we took an alternate route after talking to some local folks.

For the portion of the PCH that I have done I used the KIrkendall and Spring book and liked it quite well. Again I didn't see any need for the GPS. I have used the gps extensively and really liked it in other settings including hiking, running, kayaking, and sailing. I never go running without my wrist GPS, but that is just to collect data.

It looked like I would need to upload route information quite a few times on a coast to coast trip as the number of waypoints is a fixed and quite limiting number. I read somewhere that it was possible to beat that by converting them to personal POI's or track points or something. Has any one had success with loading a whole long trip like a coast to coast trip. Carrying a laptop or having to find computers along the way that will let me install GPS software is not an option I care for.

I agree that a GPS is not entirely necessary, especially if you're doing an Adventure Cycling Association route using their maps. However, I'd still take my GPS on such a trip. Why? Well, first of all, those maps are only useful as long as you stay on their little black line. Secondly, I really liked the ability of the GPS to produce a GPX trackpoint file for each day. This can be used later to show a line following where you went on a Google map (an option I have on crazyguyonabike). Finally, I haven't done this myself, but you can apparently download routes from the ACA website, which presumably would give you some kind of route to follow right there on the GPS, and maybe other things like services... sounds cool. With the Energizer lithium batteries, I was getting something like a couple of weeks of all-day riding use out of the eTrex Vista HCx, which is quite acceptable to me. So yeah, it's really a luxury, to be sure - but then every bit of gear that you take along is some kind of tradeoff in terms of cost/weight/simplicity. Now we have it, I'd take it in a heartbeat. I love the feeling of never being lost, no matter how far off route or in the middle of nowhere I am... on the other other hand, perhaps this reduces the sense of adventure somewhat! Sometimes it can be great to get lost... often the best stories happen on tours when things kind of go ballistic.

Neil

Working on it!

Maybe? I have a bluetooth GPS module on order, supposedly it will work with a couple of different types of mapping software. I have just gotten started on this, when I get some results I will report back. FWIW I am using a Verizon Blackberry 8830 World.

Aaron:)

Neil,
Good points on the Garmin stuff.
One minor correction in #6. I had an Etrex Vista Cx and replaced it with an Oregon 400t. I was able to unlock City Navigator on the new unit without $$ despite Garmin's convoluted web site.

I rely heavily on the GPS even when using AC maps. City Navigator is a key component of that. One of my (many) gripes with Garmin is the lack of updatable POI's. I'd buy them if available. Somehow, all that stuff was cataloged when they made the maps. How difficult would it be to update and sell it?

I admit, I'm geographically impaired.... :o

Really? That's interesting, and good to know! So how did you do it? Did you have to work around or hack their system, or do they actually allow this explicitly now? If so, then maybe they've changed their policy, which would be fantastic. Perhaps DeLorme's more open policy is generating some sense of competition (unlikely, I don't think DeLorme is exactly on Garmin's radar just yet)...

I went back to "My Garmin" and dbbl checked. They have City Navigator listed on both units, so I imagine this is a change in policy for them.

You can definitely load up your routes before the ride. however you need to watch the number of waypoints you use. if you want to take a specific route you may only be able to load ~2 days worth. Also the battery in my garmin 605 lasted 1.75 days of touring. however its so much easier to not have to look for street signs or look at a map ever. the garmin just beeped away when it was time to turn.

You'll find that Verizon's phone only works with VZ navigator. I assume that's why you're going with a bluetooth GPS versus using the one in the phone? Are you sure the 8830 supports the profile necessary for the external unit? I have a Verizon 8830 myself, and honestly I haven't tried, since VZ usually neuters their handsets profiles. More of a question into how much you've researched it.

I know with VZ Navigator you have to have access to EVDO data, so it can keep it's maps updated.

If they aggregated their data it would be easy. Problem is that Garmin like others buys their data from places like Navteq. That carries a license fee.

-Roger

Not planning on the VZ Navigator. I have Google Maps app (but that needs the EVDO too) Supposedly I can put second party mapping programs on the chip and utilize that. The GPS unit is bluetooth and supposedly will work with google earth and other map programs. If it doesn't it goes back. I also know someone that is working to unlock the 8830:innocent:

Aaron:)

Sounds like a PITA to have to upload that often. I wouldn't even consider carrying a laptop and finding a system along the way every time you needed one that would let you install GPS software doesn't sound feasible. Has anyone here managed to load a trip like the TA or the NT all at once? I read some rumors that it has been done with some trickery involving track points or POI's instead of waypoints. Apparently they have a much less restrictive limit.

Yes, it's possible. Last year I uploaded thousands of French campsites into my Garmin GPS, which would not have be possible with the waypoint restriction. To do this you need the Garmin POI Loader.

A good site with POIs is poihandler.com.

Can you use the POI's as elements in a route? That would seem to be the key in getting this to work.

Ah, a kindred spirit. I didn't have a map pouch on my handlebar bag when I did part of the Northern Tier, and I can't read without my glasses, so every time I wanted to check the route I'd have to stop, get out my map (from under the camera and wallet and energy bars, etc.), find my glasses (from under the camera and.....) and find where I was and where I wanted to turn. Then I'd have to fold up the map and remove my glasses, stuff them back in the bag, get the lid of the Ortlieb handlebar bag to close (anyone else find this a pain?) and ride off, only to repeat the process a few miles down the road.

Oh, and did I mention that, in spite of the excellent ACA maps, I still missed a couple of turns?

I think I'd like having a GPS take care of all this for me.

I guess I'll just have to buy one and try it out. :p

Garmin is one that supports an outside GPS on the Verizon Crackberry.

Aaron:)

Keep me posted if you could on how you make out. I'm assuming that the Garmin will need a BT com port and I'm interested if the VZ phone will support it or if it's neutered out. Love their service, hate their proprietary BS! Haven't checked Howard Forums for a crack, was able to crack some wild stuff on my Razr.

-Roger

I don't think this is possible.

+1 on the Vista hcx (Don't scrimp and get the legend. No compass. The difference is that you will have to be moving in order for your maps to point in the proper direction.)

I also came to the exact same conclusion regarding the Delorme. I was so pumped when I first heard about it, but the fact is, the cons of the unit itself outweigh the pros of the maps (for my current purpose).

Thing with City navigator, although it has served me well, I am a little bummed that the Wendy’s, which has been there for over 20 years, nor my LBS (15+ years) is on there.

I wonder if it is all possible to load the basic missing POI's. I imagine it would take way way too much time cross referencing and what have you.