Neil_B

I think it's a bit much to assume the real world is like the PC hothouse called corporate America. I understand the origin of the fear, but it's pretty unlikely to ever happen. Also, the standard for evidence is much higher in reality than in the work environment.

If you practice avoiding people, apply it to men as well as women, as Machka does. Now THAT'S respect.

Neil_B

+1.

Neil_B

Where did Cyclesafe mention kids? I can understand avoiding children, however.

raphael88

There's a difference between "feeling the need to talk" and exchanging pleasantries. If I see another cyclist I may well say hello or comment on how nice their bike is or whatever. It's perfectly easy for them to politely give me signals that they don't want to talk. I'm not offended, they're not bothered and the whole thing took 30 seconds.

If you don't want to talk to strangers, give them a hint but expecting people to avoid you at all times seems a little extreme. Honestly what I find refreshing about North America as opposed to the parts of England I live in is how socially acceptable it is to talk to strangers, in a way that is often frowned upon back home.

The people camping next to you are weird and intrusive, but people striking up conversation are not, IMHO.

valygrl

Hey - yeah, still reading. It's less male dominated now than it was when I started (16 years ago, how did that happen???). I know a couple of women who have soloed El Capitan, but it's the exception even more than women touring solo. It's definitely a guys sport, and as a woman you have to make it clear if you are just looking to climb and not to hook up.

rhm

+1. I avoid all children (except my own) except, of course, when my children are present.

_______________

This is fascinating, though. I agree with Staehpj1, that Cyclesafe's approach is "a bit over the top," but I wouldn't go much beyond that. And though I understand how some might see misogyny in Cyclesafe's posts, I did not. I understand (and respect) that to one reader But I did not take get that impression. Another reader asks:Huh? I see no contradiction there. It is one thing to say "all are welcome in my tent" and quite another to assume I am welcome in theirs.

Is Cyclesafe's approach paranoid? I sure hope so, but I don't honestly know if it is. At any rate, when I'm by myself, I generally don't chat up solo women. As much as I might enjoy their company, I am loath to make them uncomfortable. So, in the end, Cyclesafe's behavior doesn't sound very different from my own. Am I proud of this? No, not in the least! But it is hard to change one's habits.

Part of what I enjoy about bicycle touring is that I get out and break my usual routine. This takes courage; and that's part of what makes it rewarding. As Sir Edmund Hilary said, "it was not the mountain we conquered, but ourselves."

BengeBoy 

Interesting thread. I had not really thought much about how to interact with other cyclists until I read something that Grant Petersen (of Rivendell Bicycles and the Rivendell Reader) stated in an interview, or wrote. I couldn't find the reference last night when I looked, and I may have it slightly wrong, but here's what I think I remember.

- If you're a man, you should be consistent in the way you great other cyclists. Smile, nod, or say hi, but do it equally to all of them. Try to say, "Nice bike," because most people like hearing compliments about their bike.

- Men should avoid being overly chummy with women cyclists because women on bikes get tired of *every* guy they encounter trying to chat them up. Too many male cyclists will pass 5 other male cyclists in a row in silence but when they come up to a woman on a bike suddenly they want to strike up a conversation. Or if they see a guy by the side of the road they'll pass him by, but if it's a woman suddenly they're "too eager" to stop and help.

So (according to Grant) be consistent. Either just nod and smile at all the cyclists you encounter, or tell them all "nice bike" and see if they want to strike up a conversation. But don't be grumpy to the guys and "overly charming" to the women.

Since Grant is a guy, and I'm a guy, I can't say whether he's right about women thinking that male cyclists seem "overly friendly" on the road.

Just thought I'd stir the pot since I often think of this observation when I come across another cyclist....[Personally, I have decided to alternate: on even-numbered days I'm nasty to everyone; on odd-numbered days I inappropriately proposition every one, regardless of gender. I keep a gender-neutral "behavior chart" in my map case so I don't forget which day it is.]

rotharpunc

I'm glad someone added some humor to this thread!

Personally, I couldn't really care less about someone's gender when it comes to stuff like this. I tend to ignore everyone aside from the same basic pleasantries, or if my help if requested, or something like that. If I'm out riding my bike by myself, its likely because I want to be by myself.

While there are a lot of weirdos out there, some women need to realize that a lot of guys don't care about them one way or the other, and if they try to make conversation, it is only not to seem rude.

Much of what is being said in this thread seems very foreign to me, but then again, I usually don't hesitate to tell people to f**K off.

nancy sv

I am here in Honduras with a German woman traveling alone - she's cycled down from Alaska by herself. (www.gonebiking.de). She's the only single woman we've met so far on our journey. I used to tour by myself, but once I met my husband I started touring with him - and now iwth my kids as well. I suppose I would go back to touring alone if I had to, but I enjoy touring with them a lot more!

Cyclesafe

Your inflamatory choice of wording. A great number of things have to happen before you PM me and "ruin my life". Actually, my signature should read. "All are welcome to PM me". If you are a woman with a compatible riding style and otherwise seem to be a good match for me as a touring partner, then I would invite you. This thread is about encountering strangers on the road.

Whoa.

Modern culture provides women and children a weapon not available to men that if they chose to exercise it could result in IMHO a fate worse than death. Our legal system is not failproof and it is entirely possible that an innocent man (or woman in the case of children - but less likely) can be convicted of a sex crime that would prevent him from ever gaining employment, would dictate where he can live, would estrange him from family and friends forever, and force him to register with law enforcement so that his name, picture, address, and the crime he (in the case) didn't do gets plastered all over the internet. I would much rather die.

If a woman or child complains about harrassment, whether actually true or actually false, law enforcement is rightly obligated to put the legal process in action. If one adult male complains about another male, the ranger (if he/she can be made to stop laughing) will either kick both parties out of the campground (for example) or move one of them to a distant site.

Now if you're angry about this double standard, I can understand that. But one of the objectives of punishment by our legal system is to deter would-be perpetrators. If deterence proves overbroad (as many in this thread are arguing - paranoid, over-the-top etc) and fewer males interact with females because they fear the potential consequences, then that's the price society pays for such deterence. I don't think that you'd argue that potential criminals shouldn't be detered.

I wouldn't use the word "respect" either. I'd use the word "fear". Fear of a misapplied (intentional or unintentional) WMD.

I don't think, nor did I write that women are deceitful and stupid. My point is simply that they have a weapon and a man does not want to be around if they choose to fire it.

Cyclesafe

So how do you talk your way out of this one?

9 year old Sally or Billy bumps literally bumps into you on your way to a campground bathroom. Scared, she/he starts crying and screaming that you touched them and runs back to Daddy. You're screwed buddy. I think you'd agree.

Now, here's a hypothetical relevant to this thread:

In the course of an unsupervised conversation with a solo female stranger you have inadvertently made her "so offended by his reasoning at this point that its a little difficult to have a civil conversation about it". Now can you really say it is impossible that that person might complain to the authorities and be so vinctive as to even embellish what happened to a degree that the legal system was invoked?

Cyclesafe

OK, you're less risk adverse than me. But I'll bet you don't stick your hand in hollow logs or stand in an open field with rebar held high in a thunder storm either.

raphael88

I've been fairly sympathetic to your views up to this point- I know some private music teachers who had terrible problems with being left alone in a lesson with precocious teenage girls, and eventually had to insist that the student's parents sat in on the lessons.

However, this sentence I've quoted seems a bit ridiculous. "Unsupervised conversation"? Come on, by this logic you're suggesting that a man never talk to any woman on the off chance that she makes a harassment claim. That's insane.

Cyclesafe

Of course it would depend on the situation. If I were sitting at a female stranger's campsite in the dark after polishing off my daily tall boy? You betcha.

If we were on the road talking alone while stradling our bikes? No. If it was in the corner of a coffee shop where the staff was out of view? Probably not either.

One should avoid situations where circumstantial evidence would support a false accusation.

mrhedges

Its seems strange to me that people post that they don't like talking to strangers but then they take the time to post on a internet forum full of strangers. to each there own i suppose.

personally I would encourage everyone to take the time to interact with strangers, even if they are female strangers or children. You might learn something or make a new friend. If you have decent social skills and street smarts its usually pretty easy to tell if a stranger is trying get something from you or if the stranger doesn't have time or doesn't desire to speak to you. Being afraid to talk to a child or a women because they might sue you or get you arrested is backwards thinking. I'm not saying you should offer a strange child candy but children are fun to chat with.

One time me and my friend were in downtown chicago, we asked 3 diffrent people for the time they all ignored us, finally my friend got dispontant and yelled "CAN ANYONE TELL ME WHAT TIME IT IS?"

its a sad world when you can't even get the time of day from a fellow human, I know this sounds hippy but we all are just humans here. even with our fancy dodads we are all the same species, an animal. please acknowledge my existence, you can give someone a moment of your day. Even when some stranger asks me for money and i don't want to give them any because i'm always short myself I still look them in the eye and say "no sorry not today" because i know that they too are human and I am not to far removed from them and even if I can't give them money I can acknowledge that they exist. Perhaps if someone camps next to you, and they don't appear crazy you could ask them why they did that, perhaps they are just alittle lonely or scared of getting eating by bears.

I also understand its different If you are a women, that you have to be extra weary of strangers, expecailly in I have the utmost respect for anyone who goes on solo tours expecialy women. It is interesting to note that genitally speaking most women are more physically desposed to long distance touring since they have higher endurance. men might have more brute strength, in general, while women have higher endurance. They do have the ability to carry a baby inside them for 9 mnths bike touring is nothing compared to that. I dunno perhaps there is an alternative universe out there with a bike forums list featuring a thread about how rare male solo tourists are, since they aren't genetically capable of it.

just my 2 cents, hope i didn't offend anyone. now get off the internet go for a bicycle ride and talk to a stranger about the weather.

rhm

+1.

The thing about children is... well, they're just tiring, you know? Especially my own, since they're harder to ignore.

m5nardi

I didn't see any inflammatory wording aside from yours there.

You have written that the likelihood that women will misunderstand an innocent encounter (stupidity) or make up harassment claims against you (deceit) is so high that you avoid all women. You make no such claims about the observational skills or integrity of men, and you went on for many more posts to defend your sexist position, so I'm confident in my opinions of your words. I'm not angry, I'm offended.

Others have agreed that your habit of avoiding women seems over the top. They didn't seem offended (men), but you weren't insulting them. You did insult me.

Machka 

I have no problem conversing with strangers on a forum because it's my choice and my time etc. ... and it's quiet ... but I look at the sounds humans make to each other as noise polution ... almost up there with cigarette smoke polution.

When someone smokes in your vicinity, the smoke infiltrates your atmosphere and violates your personal space. When someone speaks in your vicinity, the sound infiltrates your atmosphere and violates your personal space. When someone speaks to you and expects a response it's an even greater violation of that personal space.

That's probably a completely unheard of concept to many people ........................... especially to cellphone users or the people who insist on yapping in elevators.



I've gone several days in a row, on several occasions, without uttering a sound .... I often wish others could do the same. Silence is golden.

imi

Makes me wonder with all this avoidance going on how some people ever met their boyfriends/girlfriends, wives/husbands or got round to making children!

On occasions I have had polite but forthright sexual invitations from strangers (of both genders)... Big deal! I say "no thank you, please don't ask again/leave me alone." In no way do I feel disrespected, harrassed, threatened... If they hadn't asked they wouldn't have got an answer... and sometimes the answer has been "Yeah sure" So what?...

Cyclesafe

The paragraph that starts about "inflammatory wording" referred to the post snip above. Not you. Sorry that you were confused.

You seem so offended and insulted that you fail to acknowledge that the consequences to a male of a false accusation by a female are much more severe than if the situation were reversed. That's not my doing it's the culture's doing, and as I've said, maybe its a good thing to deter potential male predation against women. Men don't seem to need equivalent safeguards.

Men's observational skills or integrity are not relevant here, but if you want my opinion (and it actually is sexist) I think that men as a class are generally less sensitive and socially adept than women as a class. There I said it. Crucify me. Or maybe its OK because that's a difference to your advantage. Oops! You made me mad, so I lose.

I appreciate that you express that you are offended and insulted about what I posted. Other, perhaps more careful readers can evaluate the rationality of your response and reassess anew for themselves the probabilities. Is it so over the top now, boys?

I would have thought that the image of men cowering in their zipped up tents afraid to make contact with you would make you feel safer. I know I'd feel safer and that's me speaking as a man!

imi

Machka. If I happened to meet you and knew your adversion to hearing speech I would most assuredly and respectfully not open my mouth in your vicinity (and probably leave your vicinity as quickly as was politely possible
However, your attitude is not common in most (all?) parts of the world, (apart from some monasteries and closters) and to expect everybody to be quiet all the time on the off chance that you (or others who share your adversions) might be around is, well, a bit far fetched.

When I need silence I usually go somewhere where there are no people (the desert suits me fine)... or I guess a whopping pair of headphones would do the trick.

Machka 

Yes, I know it doesn't seem to be common ... <<sigh>> ... people seem to have this need to speak unnecessarily all the time.


Now I will add that I am slightly more open to conversations with strangers on tours or long distance rides than I am in regular life ... perhaps it is because on a tour or long distance ride I go long periods of time without being required to speak to strangers or to hear strangers speak.

And if I'm in a social situation ... like the pre-ride dinner before a major cycling event ... I'll talk then because the whole point is to mingle and chat etc.

imi

hihi, yeah I know what you mean, the weird thing is that even if I want to, I often can't get sensible words together after riding on my own all day... I get this after sports activities of all kinds, meditating or playing the guitar and singing; as if I've gone into my own world so deep that it takes a while to climb back into the world where humans communicate verbally with each other...

East Hill

Here.

balto charlie

I can't believe you folks are afraid of kids. Being afraid of women is one thing, being afraid of people is another but kids...more often than not they are honest. Ain't nothing better.