Cyclesafe

I've been exchanging emails with a gentleman who wants to come with me on my next tour. Personally, we seem to hit it off, but there is an issue that is bothering me very much.

My potential partner plans to take only the least ultralilte gear he thinks he can get away with. I prefer to plan for forseeable contingencies and be comfortable. For example, he will take tubes, but no spare, a bivy sack, but no tent, a 35 deg bag, an alcohol stove, no water filter, no capacity for strapping anything to his rig like for extra food or water, and only a multitool. I'm taking a spare tire, a 2-man tent, a 20 deg bag, a white gas stove, water filter, lots of carrying capacity, and a full complement of parts and tools for on-the-road bike repair.

OK. On a two month trip in the Rockies, bikes break down and there are snow storms. Will I leave him on the side of the road thumbing a ride if I have a part to fix his bike? Will I let him suffer in inclement weather when he can be warm and dry with me in my tent? Will I not loan him the use of my stove or water filter? Of course not. But frankly I feel that I would be a sucker. He's hauling 20 lbs of gear to my nearly 60 (including HB bag and panniers).

In school, this was described as the problem of the "free rider" - an appropriate moniker here. Oh, and he prides himself on being ultralite and it hasn't occured to him to help carry some of the "insurance".

Am I wrong to feel put-upon here? Or is this still another reason to go solo?

antokelly

cyclesafe you have a big problem ,blow this guy out he is wrecking your head already and you havent left the house yet.you seem to have got yourself into a wright fix.this guy will proberly end up useing more of your gear than you do.just tell him there's a change of plan ,and you would rather paddle your own canoe.

neilfein

I would let him know your concerns, at least giving him a chance to do something about this. If you can't come to a meeting of the minds about this, you'll be miserable touring with each other.

MTBMaven

Yeah I would blow the guy off just yet. I would let him know your concerns stating that you don't want to be carrying his back up gear.

However I think more important that your concerns are how well do you get along otherwise? Is he experienced enough to if he can get away with this amount of gear? Has he toured enough to know what he is doing?

I started the John Muir Trail a number of year ago with a guy I got along pretty well with but didn't have a huge history of doing things with. He had never backpacked before the trip. I ended up bailing 85 miles into a 200 mile hike. The hiking was hard enough but it seemed like I ended up doing all the work around camp, pumping water, setting up the tent, cooking the food. He was so tired at the end of the day that he had no energy to help. I think issues like this could sabotage your trip more in my opinion.

John Nelson

What are your relative strengths and speeds? If his speed with 20 pounds is the same as your speed with 60 pounds, then perhaps his approach will work out to your advantage. You may have to loan him a tube but you won't have to wait for him so much.

You absolutely cannot tour with this guy as long as you feel put-upon. If you cannot get over it, then go solo.

In general, touring with someone with whom you have limited experience is always a gamble. More often than not, it doesn't work out--you need to anticipate and plan for that. It's easier to make allowances for someone you've known well for years than for a recent acquaintance. Make an agreement that either party can dissolve the partnership at any time for any reason, no long explanations necessary and no hard feelings.

staehpj1

If you are asking this question in this way, you probably shouldn't tour with him.

Are you a lot stronger rider than he is? If not he may wind up being "put-upon" that, particularly when climbing, your pace doesn't suit him because of the extra 40# of stuff you are carrying. He may be put-upon that he has to stay at a cold high elevation campsite because you weren't able to make another 20 miles to where it would have been a few thousand feet lower and much warmer. Both your approaches could be reasonable, but they might not be compatible.

What he is planning to take sounds reasonable enough (based on what little we know about it), if it is what suits him and he is used to it. I would be more concerned whether your temperaments and riding strengths are compatible. The difference in your packing styles suggests that your approaches to touring may be different enough to where it might not work out.

At a minimum lay out what level of commitment you each have toward staying together as a group and what factors might prompt your desire to go your separate way. If you have concerns about what he does and does not carry mention them going in. I would not presume to say either approach is wrong though and certainly would not presume to tell him what to carry unless he is very inexperienced in self supported camping of some sort (not necessarily bike touring).

FWIW: By carrying three times as much gear, you are probably much more likely to need spare parts and tools than he is.

kayakdiver

Clear the air now! Make sure that he understands that your touring solo together. That if it's not working out you will each go your separate ways. It needs to be discussed up front. As long as this is done you can tour and have fun. If it's not working out you go on your way.

If during the trip he uses any of your stuff it would/should be considered group gear and will be split up between you. Some people don't mind going with the bare necessities. They would rather be light.

I don't tour with a water filter.... I don't tour with a two man tent. I don't tour with a white gas stove. We all do things a little different. You need to figure out if those differences are enough to cause problems before you leave.

These are questions you should be asking him. Not us.

EmmCeeBee

I've toured in exactly the same situation, except for one factor. I carry the tent, the meals, the tools, the spares, the extra water. ~100 lbs compared to her ~40 lbs. "Her" is my wife.

I wouldn't start out on a trip like this, for anybody else. No need even to go into all the reasons....

Nobody. Period. (Unless, of course, it was as a Good Samaritan emergency.)

-- Mark

valygrl

staehpj1, this is a very well thought out response and I couldn't agree more.

Cyclesafe

Thanks to all for your thoughtful answers...

But the issue isn't whether he can pull it off. It's whether I'm going to throw him a bone if he doesn't. And of course I would (with carefully shielded resentment).

I'm strong, but not so much that I'd expect to be as nimble with 60 lbs as he would be with 20. Especially during those endless ascents when you start questioning your sanity.

As always, your posts are thought-provoking.

• I hadn't considered that he'd be better able to ride out of trouble on his broken bike in a whiteout.
• Again, the issue isn't whether his choices suit him. It's whether I should feel put-upon to help him in forseeable situations.
• I agree that communication before leaving is critical, but once on the road, one can't depend on your partner to stick to any agreements once the going gets tough. It takes a person with pretty high moral standards to not abandon (in a place of safety) a stranger when something unanticipated and sufficiently unfavorable develops.
• By carrying three times as much (actually weight) gear I am not more likely to need spare parts and tools, because I have them with me and because I have quality equipment. Also, rig plus rider is still only 255 lbs - even with an Americano frameset and Tubus racks! (The latter explanation point is warranted only when you also know as background that I am 6'2"/165 lbs and have 13% calculated body fat.)

Well, as for the tone in my posts well reflecting an attitude incongruent with having this guy for a partner, I think that this is spot on. In my experience, most strangers prior to a trip bail on each other before it is over. I think this guy and I will last two days at best. Maybe I've entered curmudgeonhood at last!

onnestabe

You definitely need to talk to him about it first, especially if you feel that you two will end up splitting up after only two days. I would be pissed someone ditched me two days into a two month-long trip over foreseeable circumstances that he didn't bring up before we left. If you don't want to have a partner, tell him now.

TheBrick

+1

Especially on the both doable approaches but not necessarily compatible approaches.

mesasone

You sound uptight to me and more prone to find a problem with your partner.

neilfein

It sounds to me like the OP is being responsible and trying to head off what could be a large incompatibility.

mrhedges

any relationship is about communication and compromise. its hard touring with other people sometimes, the only person I ever toured with was a GF and that didn't go so well. some things just aren't meant to be though.

nun

The guy with 20lbs of stuff sounds quite well supplied to me. The difference in your touring styles and potential speeds will probably cause some issues. Talk them out before you start and if you have any worries find another companion.

This is why I solo tour. Part of the fun is doing what I want, how I want, when I want.

nun

• You only need a few parts and tools to fix 99% of bike problems that occur. If you do basic maintenance of your moving parts like hubs, BBs, headsets before you start and use quality stuff you only need a minimal parts and tool kit. Your parters lighter load makes riding in any conditions easier
• That's really up to you, no one can help you there and I assume you mean unforeseen circumstances
• I'd never tour with someone I didn't trust
• I'd be interested to see your parts list. I think the point is that any unnecessary weight increases wear and tear on the bike, but it isn't a big issue given your total weight. I weight 190lbs (>13% body fat> and me, bike and gear come up to 235lbs.

Niles H.

Since you asked for feedback about all this, here goes:

You are showing a clear tendency toward resenting having to bail him out -- this tendency doesn't bode well for your happiness about touring with him. You may already be resenting the prologue to resenting the rest. You are already framing things in such a way that you feel put upon before even starting out.

One solution is to nix the partnership, now or later.

Another approach is to try another way of dealing with it on your own side, another way of seeing it and him. I've known people who absolutely would *not* feel put upon in the sorts of situations you describe. They just have very generous, non-resentful ways of seeing people and dealing with things.

You also mentioned:

You have already judged him, possibly quite unfairly. This tendency (to judge him in these ways) is not something that will help with having a happy or friendly attitude toward this fellow or the trip. It sounds to me as if he may be entirely innocent in his approach. He may literally not be a free rider or a freeloader or anything of the sort.

This tendency to judge and pre-judge is well worth not having on board. Why not give him the benefit of the doubt, and treat him like a good human being and a friend? He may be able to tour this way perfectly well. If he is mistaken, he will find out. It may be an innocent blunder; or -- if it works -- it may be a great way to tour, for him, and a good discovery, and a good step toward finding something that he is happy doing.

You could also give him the benefit of freedom -- he clearly feels that this is something he wants to try. Why not give the poor bloke a chance? Or at least consider replacing old tendencies with something more along the lines of generosity of attitude toward him?

You could give that a try or not -- it's certainly up to you.

I don't think that being quick to resent things is a particularly worthwhile tendency to keep on board.

There are many things that come up when touring with someone: riding speeds, having to wait for various things (repairs, pit stops, flats, snack breaks, meals, sight seeing, and many other events), all kinds of differing approaches and preferences and tendencies, whether riding or camping or washing or cooking or sleeping or eating. It seems best, unless you go solo (even then it can help) to have as much broadmindedness, good will, big heartedness, and generosity of spirit toward others as possible -- and toward the diversity of life -- and as much freedom from judging or resenting as possible.

***

Someone was looking for a way to change her life for the better, because she felt stuck. She went to someone who might have some other approach she could try, and asked her what she could try for bringing about a change. The answer that came was to give without expecting anything in return.

You could even see the opportunity to help this guy out (if it goes that way, or becomes necessary, which it may or may not) as an opportunity. Why not? It seems like a better way to live.

A little giving doesn't necessary mean you are a doormat or a slave. It can be seen differently.

nun

+1 to Nike H's comments

Cyclesafe

+1 to Niles H.'s comments too.

Oh, and I meant forseeable situations. A bike breakdown should be forseeable. The nature of the breakdown may be unforseeable, like in low probability. I think this is your point also.

Tool kit
Brake & derailleur cables
Brake pads
Cable caps
Cassette Lockring Driver
Chain lube
Chain pins
Cleats
Extra nuts and bolts
Loctite
Multitool
Patch kit
Power links
S&S wrench
Spokes / Spoke wrench
Tape, duct
Thermorest repair kit
Tire boot
Zip / cable ties

mrhedges

I'm not sure i would bring even anything close to that much stuff.

All I can really add to Nile's excellent comments is that does the idea of companionship on this tour outweigh the difficulties in dealing with another human? In other words which would you prefer, doing what you want anytime not having to worry about a riding partner who might not have enough stuff or someone to share the experience with?

nun

That's quite close to my list. cables, pads, screws, SRAM chainlinks, fiberflex spoke should be in everyone's gear. If your potential companion isn't carrying something similar I wouldn't tour with him. Do you carry tyre boots and a spare?

Cyclesafe

Good summary. I'm coming down to the idea that I'll be happier solo. "Not having enough stuff" is only one of many important variables to consider before chosing a touring partner. I had never considered it before. Maybe others haven't either....

I have tire boots and a spare because the former is of such insignificant weight.

arctos

This question reminded me of the one and only time I toured with someone I did not know. I believe that I asked all of the right questions to vet this woman. She said all the right things and claimed extensive touring and racing experience, Outward Bound training and the physical condition implied by those statements. I expected to ride with an Olympic level athlete with endless outdoor experience.
She came ill equiped for the climatic conditons of the tour or for any tour for that matter. Her physical condition on the loaded bike was a joke even though she was 25 years my junior. Fibs and exagerations I accept as human nature and handle without much fuss but when a person does not contribute to camp set up, cooking, water filtering and only takes without considering the others around them I draw the line there. One night she borrowed my spoon for eating because her tent was too far away to get her own!

I parted with this person after five days and at the end she wanted me to loan her equipment for cooking, sleeping and bike repair for her to continue her trip.

As I pedaled away, I could only shake my head at this self centered idiot who apparently expected everyone else to provide for her at their expense. I have not made this mistake again.

John Nelson

If you're going to tour with someone, I think you should be prepared to treat them exactly like you would treat your best friend. If you can do this, then go for it. Otherwise, go alone.