staehpj1

That is what I do at churches. In private homes I have always either been invited directly or indirectly, in that case I don't offer to pay, but always say thanks and contact them after the trip to thank them again if I have contact info.

neil

My guess is that this statement comes from somewhat little experience outside the national parks. There are vast tracts of public land where you can free camp. Just not in parks. Likewise, many designated campgrounds aren't outrageously priced, just not the ones in popular parks.

njkayaker

This is a better way of putting it. Still, I have no idea how a few people not haggling over 5cents is really going to distort the market.

(Just to be clear: my comments are statements of facts. And those facts may not be universal. They are not intended to imply any "crookedness" or anything bad about locals doing business!)

Wogster

I wouldn't say camping in Canada sucks, as someone who lives here and has camped here, I must disagree. Prices, yeah some sites are a little high, then again those sites are primarily oriented to RV campers who need full water and electrical hookup. Most campgrounds in Ontario at least, have lists of what services they provide, the most services, typically the higher the cost. You would expect to pay more for a site with showers, coin laundry facilities, flush toilets, treated, running water, then you would for a site that has only a porto-potty and an untreated swamp for water. Most provincial parks campgrounds have all the services, and a few have electrical hookup. There are also private campgrounds and they have their own pricing.

BigBlueToe

Ha-ha! Great answer.

I think the person should offer to pay up front if he/she is polite. If not, I will ask.

Here's a question: if you're alone and sharing with a couple, do you pay a third of the cost or half? I usually offer to pay half. I'm not all that worried about splitting hairs, but I do think it's important that everyone be okay with the decision. I've had little things bother me before, and I don't want to contribute to a little thing bothering someone else.

positron

No, it offends me because you assume that the prices in third world countries are negotiable. As a rich American tourist, you hold most of the power in the relationship when interacting with impoverished people who are dependent on your tourism. How much does that 5 cents buy you in Canada? Do you make the same assumption that every Canadian is out for the graft when you buy something from Canadian Tire? I am fairly certain you don't assume you can walk into Tim Horton's and haggle over the cost of a sandwich just because you think its overpriced. If you tried, they'd tell you to piss off, because you have no power to lean on them.

I grew up on the Arizona and Mexican border, and have travelled often and extensively throughout Mexico -especially the northern regions that are overrun by haggling Americans like you. I'm so sick of rich tourists leaning on the locals because of the power they wield. I cant tell you how many times I've heard the excuse that there is a 'culture of haggling'. Let me tell you compadre, there is only a 'culture of haggling' because people make a sport out of seeing how much of their profit margin a desperate salesman is willing to part with just to make any sale at all.

Theres nothing wrong with haggling, when the seller can tell you to get lost. Its quite different when they quite literally depend on making the sale. In a stable, fair and balanced market (like you enjoy in Canada), the goods themsleves, and the market would dictate price, sometimes in favour of the buyers, and sometimes in favour of the sellers according to supply and demand. Third world countries are basically ALWAYS a buyers market. I hope you enjoy exploiting that.

Wogster

I think that if it bothers you, and they don't offer then ask. Sometimes I think a better way of going about it is to ask what they can contribute. It doesn't always need to be cash, suppose they had a bag of fruit and most of a 2L tin of fuel left and it's their final day...... They might offer that, and you might decide to accept, especially if you haven't see fresh fruit in a while and your own tin of fuel is getting low.

yeamac 

Good idea. You could have them wash your clothes, wash your bike, give you a foot massage ... lot of possibilities!

Cyclesafe

Aside from the vitriol, positron makes a good (and seldom as well articulated) point. It's been my experience that it's the more well-off locals (like tour operators and taxi drivers) and expatriates from the first world who perpetuate the "haggling culture" and "begging is an industry here" ideas. I have been ridiculed for paying $10 for a sombrero I could have haggled down to $5 and screamed at for giving the equivalent of a dollar to a mother and child "begging team". The rationale for the latter being, "do you realize how long they could have lived on that much money?". WTF.

In 1998 I turned down the opportunity to represent my company in Mumbai because I couldn't have been callous enough to live there in splendor among the poverty. To survive there as an expatriate, one must take on the imperious ways of the most well off locals. And that was too high a price to pay.

What I like about bicycle touring is that everybody assumes you are poor and you can pretend to be poor too. That allows you to avoid the otherwise obsequious (or hostile) behavior from locals who instead are (for better or worse) more sincere in their dealings with you. You can be as generous as is still polite in their culture and a great time is usually had by all. This applies among the street vendors of Asia and the rednecks of non-urban US.

staehpj1

I may be going a bit off topic, but that reminds me of a cute story.

My daughter was at a QuikMart or similar when on the TA. She was paying for a bottle of gatorade and a snack on her visa card. The lady behind the counter said, "Oh, honey I can't let you put that on your credit card. Just take it." My daughter tried to explain that she was not destitute, but just preferred to not carry much cash. The lady would not take the card. My daughter then tried to insist on paying in cash. The lady only took her money after some effort on my daughter's part to convince her that she could afford it.

I thought that it was heartwarming to see the concern and generosity toward a stranger on the cashier's part. I think she intended to pay for it out of her own pocket.

It kind of illustrates the point that at least some folks will assume that we are poor.

paulrad9

I think I am reading this two ways:
1 - has someone entered a site and found it fully booked than asked to share so they don't have to sleep on the side of road?
or
2 - has someone come to the camp, saw vacancies but balked at the $15/night price and asked to bum room on your site?

If I was in the first, I'd not only offer to pay the full price of the spot but also make you dinner and breakfast as you've save my tail. If it was my spot, I'd hope you'd offer me a few bucks, be seen but not heard and offer to make me coffee in the morning

If it was the second, than I'd smile and decline their 'offer'

Neil_B

Oh trust me, there's been far worse. Flyin' Ryan, anyone?

Neil_B

Could it be the people the OP mentioned thought the OP had secured a free campsite?

Nigeyy

Aren't prices in the USA or anywhere for that matter negotiable though given the right context? E.g. if I buy something from craigslist or a flea market in the USA, I'll never offer the asking price first! Likewise and as you similarly point out, I'm not going to go into McDonalds and haggle over the price of a serving of fries.

Am I right to believe that there are more haggling (whenever I use that word I can't help but think of "That's not worth 20 Shekels!") opportunities in third world countries because there are less structured commercial ventures? Is it that offensive to think that? And are there places in in world where haggling is indeed a culture? (I do know in places where I grew up, haggling was expected and you were looked at as a bit of a chump if you did pay the asked price. Also, after reading Barbara Savage's book, it certainly gave me the impression it was).

While I understand your point, I also think it would be naive to think that locals (in any country mind you!) wouldn't be willing to do a bit of price gouging to a tourist rather than offer some fair or reasonable price in the first place -should you pay that inflated price with no effort to adjust it? How do you tell if a price is inflated or not anyway?

Isn't that what haggling is about in this case?

vik 

I spent a few months in India 3 years ago. I didn't do a lot of haggling. It took me about 3 days to figure out what an appropriate price was for the stuff I needed on a regular basis [food, water, hotels, taxis, etc...] It also only took 3 days or so to figure out where to go to get the goods or services I needed at market value. I didn't spend my time arguing over 5 cents on a $2 beer. I just avoided the obvious tourist traps and I avoided vendors that weren't charging something close to market rates. I also avoided hagglers like the plague...they gave me a headache. I got the distinct impression some people enjoyed the conflict and aggression involved in arguing about prices. I guess to each his own, but to be clear it's not the only way to get market prices in poorer countries....being smart and polite works just as well.

What I find interesting about the folks that feel haggling is essential do you try and haggle at the movies when they try and charge you $7 for a popcorn that would $2 a block away in a store or $5 for a coke that would be $1.58 at McDonald's??? You should because otherwise those movies theaters will gouge the next guy at inflated rates!...

john bono

I know a car salesman, who will be happy to let you pay MSRP for your next car, so that you can assuage your guilt over paying $5 for a $10 hat. If you are still feeling guilty, I know of a couple realtors who will happily sell you a California house at 2007 prices as well.

positron

This attempt at equivalence is laughable. At best.

positron

You strike me as a sensible, nice guy in all your posts Vik, this one is no different.

Cyclesafe

Come on. The delta is $5 versus thousands. WTF.

axolotl

Getting way off the original topic here.

In my travels to lands where haggling is part of the culture (yes, many such places exist), I've witnessed far more western tourists severely overpay than I've witnessed haggling over a few pennies, though the latter species certainly exists. I'm talking mostly about non-essential purchases here.

While I would agree that being "smart and polite" can work in some situations, it doesn't work in all situations. Sometimes you must haggle to get market prices, though you can certainly haggle in a smart and polite manner. One example is with taxi drivers. In most of the non-metered taxi world, if you're perceived to be a tourist, I believe that there is a likelihood that the taxi driver will attempt to overcharge you. Taxi drivers are a scourge throughout the world!

Then there's the practice in some countries of having a 2-tier pricing system for things like entrance fees to museums or parks. Is that practice justified? Probably, IMO. In many developing countries, most locals couldn't possibly afford to pay developed world prices. But what about in the developed world? I'm not aware of any museums, for example, in either Canada or the USA which charge non-citizens higher entrance fees, though I wouldn't be surprised if some exist. I did encounter that in Spain recently, however, where there was one price for EU citizens, and another for everyone else. There's also the practice in some US states of charging non-residents higher prices for things like entering state parks. That seems to me to be downright dumb if you're hoping to encourage tourism.

vik 

In just about every tourist town in Canada or America I've been to [Banff, Whistler, Moab, Sedona, Aspen, Lake Tahoe, etc,,,] there is a two tiered pricing system. A local can't and won't pay $300 for a $200 bike part. The local businesses would rather have $200 than nothing [the local will just order from Speedgoat] so they accept fair market value on an item from a local...this also works because they are locals themselves at other businesses. When I go to Banff I know the big snowboard shop on main street is over priced - everybody knows that, except for the tourists - so I go to the shop 3 blocks away in the basement of an office building.

We act like charging tourists more for goods and services is a 3rd world scam that must be defeated, but we use the exact same tactics here in North America. I don't see Germans haggling a $7 latte down to $4 in Banff. They suck it up and pay the $7 'cause it would be rude here to harangue the barista for a deal. Of course in India it would be a crime to pay $2 for a chai when "it should cost" $0.75.

It's bizarre the way we can rationalize to justify the behaviour we prefer.

njkayaker

This is a reasonable post.

One important difference is that the popcorn and burger sellers are not pushing the sale on you as you are passing by.

It some places, the sellers are set-up and prepared to bargain. A lot of what tourists are haggling over is stuff that isn't being bought be locals.

WTF, indeed!

This make sense too. (Note that I'm not calling anything a scam!)

Garthr

You state you had already paid the bill for the spot. . . . how were you stiffed ? ..... it was paid for!

If you didn't negotiate a payment to be paid to you. . . you were not stiffed. You assumed you would be paid.... which is your issue, not theirs.


Are you truly "all for sharing and willing to do nearly anything to help a fellow cyclist"? Maybe if you were, you would not have even thought twice about weather or not they paid you for sharing your spot.... and just enjoyed their company.


Now, I'm not trying to bust your ego just because . . . but because I've been there too, as we all have. It's all too easy to assume someone will do something, then be offended when they don't do what we assumed. All over a few dollars. In the grand scheme of life . . . a few dollars is no big deal and not worth the emotional cost.

What about the experience . . .did you enjoy their company? What "price" does that have?

-cheers

Losligato

It seems locals know intuitively when it is appropriate to negotiable and when it is not. Every country is different and as outsiders travelers often chose one of the extremes so as not to make a mistake or offend. Some travelers never bargain for anything. Others bicker over every purchase. In my opinion neither is correct.

Rule of thumb 1: Negotiate a lower price if you are buying more than the norm. A week in a hotel. A taxi ride to a far off city. Two dozen Bart Simpson bobble heads. Rarely do these instances involve a mismatched marketplace where the buyer has all the power.

Rule of thumb 2: If you are not sure if something you desire is negotiable, ask the price. Once told say, "Thank you, I'll think about it," and continue walking. If it is negotiable they will ask, "How much do you want to pay?" Smile politely and say, "Thank you, I'll think about it." At that point they will generally call out the proper price for the item or let you go. Now you have a good idea of fair price. Buy it at that price or don't buy it at all.

Rule of thumb 3: Certainly there are some people in the Third World who are being squeezed to the edge of existence by an overly-competitive marketplace where the buyer has all the power. Some people, not everyone. It is generally obvious who they are and you should avoid taking advantage of them. A market where every vendor is selling the same few fruits and vegetables is a good example of a tough market for the sellers. We try to seek out a kind-faced vendor on the fringes of the market rather than the prosperous one in the center, and we do not negotiate.

Finding balance in this and other cultural difference is one of the greatest challenges of traveling. Smiling, being polite and maintaining the goal of achieving a fair transaction for both you and the seller will make everyone involved happy.

vik 

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