Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Touring
Reload this Page >

Touring frame advice needed

Notices
Touring Have a dream to ride a bike across your state, across the country, or around the world? Self-contained or fully supported? Trade ideas, adventures, and more in our bicycle touring forum.

Touring frame advice needed

Old 06-07-10, 05:37 AM
  #1  
meech151
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Mountain Home, AR
Posts: 206

Bikes: MEECH road & cross bike

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Touring frame advice needed

My name is Dimitri Harris and I normally post in the frame builders forum as I am a framebuilder who builds mainly cross frames, I don't know much about touring frames other than they need to be comfortable, need longer chain stays for bags and heal clearance, and they need some good braze-ons for racks. I had a customer order a touring frame and I haven't heard from them in a while but I decided to go ahead and build the frame regardless because it will be a nice frame and its something a little different to build. He said he needed a steel 1 1/8" fork for it because a 1" steel steerer was too flimsy. I was wondering if this is very common for touring frames because even though I have built a couple of these forks they are normally overkill as I have never known anyone to have problems with a 1" steel fork. Can any of you experienced tourists shine some light on this issue so that I know which way to go? Also, any details you can give on what makes a better touring frames I would love to know. Comfortable angles, BB drop, chainstay length, etc. Thanks.meechcustombikes.blogspot.com/

Last edited by meech151; 06-07-10 at 06:00 AM.
meech151 is offline  
Old 06-07-10, 07:02 AM
  #2  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: Toronto, Ontario
Posts: 1,744

Bikes: Miele Azsora, Kuwahara Cascade

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 5 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Yeah that's why everyone threw away all their bikes in 1996. Flimsy forks.




...Sorry, it's early and I'm feeling snarky.
jtgotsjets is offline  
Old 06-07-10, 07:58 AM
  #3  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 5,428

Bikes: Cervelo RS, Specialized Stumpjumper FSR Pro, Schwinn Typhoon, Nashbar touring, custom steel MTB

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8 Post(s)
Liked 2 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by meech151
He said he needed a steel 1 1/8" fork for it because a 1" steel steerer was too flimsy. I was wondering if this is very common for touring frames because even though I have built a couple of these forks they are normally overkill as I have never known anyone to have problems with a 1" steel fork.
Virtually every frame manufactured today has a 1 1/8" steerer tube! Bikes, forks, and stems for 1" steerers are getting harder and harder to find. For that reason alone, I'd go with 1 1/8". But keep in mind that if your client is a bicycle tourist he may be planning to install a front rack, attach 20-40 lbs of junk to it, and then plow into potholes or speed bumps at 15-20+mph.
sstorkel is offline  
Old 06-07-10, 12:47 PM
  #4  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: England
Posts: 12,948
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 19 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 7 Times in 7 Posts
You should seek out a copy of the book Touring Bikes by Tony Oliver. Its a bit old but the fundamentals of touring geometry, material and braze-ons hold good.
Threadless headsets are prefereable to threaded ones because the tools are lighter and easier to carry. 1 1/8" headsets have a larger bearing surface, especially useful on smaller sized frames.
The loading and forces on a touring bike are a bit different to race bikes. They need stiffness but not at the expense of strength, so large diameter, thin-walled race tubing is not appropriate.
One key aspect to remember is that touring bikes carry a lot of accessories. High end touring bike try to integrate all of this stuff neatly and minimise the number of clamps, eg brake, gear and lighting cable runs, racks and panniers, fenders and lights. Some bikes aim to fit industry-standard accessories, others depend on carefully made custom bits.
For some inspiration, check out
Thorn (sjscycles)
tout-terrain
Koga Miyata
MichaelW is offline  
Old 06-07-10, 03:41 PM
  #5  
Banned
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Posts: 5,115
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 2 Times in 1 Post
10.5 clearance is typical, 44-46 chainstays, however I build with full chainstay length usable, which can be a lot longer. Most geometry is 73 73, but I prefer slacker tubes. I set the front end the way I want it, somewhere in the 70-72 range, and I make the seat tube the angle I need for my cockpit, but offset for the saddle I will use, and I don't use an offset seat post since the wheel is way back there, not being tucked in.

You are absolutely right that 1" is what one found on typical touring bikes of old, and is all that one would ever need for a road touring bike, or probably any touring bike. That said, there is no real disadvantage in using the larger tubes I prefer them, but wouldn't use one on a lugged classic touring bike. Some expedition touring bikes like the Sakkit use 1" tubes these days.

https://www.wooljersey.com/gallery/v/...ikes/album153/

Interesting to note however, that he uses a top lug that goes all the way up the extension. So my preference when making similar stuff welded is to use the thick wall oversize tubes. Real stout, and probably no difference in weight compared to what is built up in this kind of extension/lung/tube assembly.

I use simpler stout tubing, sometimes even straight wall. I want lots of beef for braze-ons, and possible future repairs. No mater how well one builds one can end up in a crash, or a shipping crush, so I like leaving a little meat for latter. I want to build a bike that is really fun to ride unloaded, but mostly designed for riding loaded. It sorta helps not to have been on a lightweight for a decade or so, that way no ridiculous comparisons.

Designing brakes is a whole book in itself.

Posture should be more upright than cross.

I think that looking at the suggested bikes is worthwhile, but they are built on an industrial model, not really what you are dealing with. I would investigate Sakkitt, buy their literature if you are serious, Bruce Gordon, Arvon Stacey. Sakkitt as a bag maker has the right bias. Start with the load, design the bags, design the racks, and then build the frame. Remember it isn't just the rider who is using this kind of bike. Check out the S&S site they have a lot of links to builders, many of whom make touring bikes. Also look around at vintage builders from the past. There are several sources for vintage bike info, and they will provide the baseline.

https://www.mariposabicycles.com/touring-bike-26.html

https://www.classicrendezvous.com/ima...riposa_LS1.jpg

https://www.pathcom.com/~ppiltch/Mariposa.html

https://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2005/cc...stagg0805.html
NoReg is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 06:11 PM
  #6  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Morcambe UK
Posts: 101

Bikes: ALAN alloy, Argos Reynolds 753, Tony Oliver Custom Reynolds/Columbus tourer, Raleigh Richmond (Reynolds 531), Raleigh Hustler all-steel roadster Raleigh Road Ace (531c)Raleigh Vitesse Carlton Corsair (531)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by MichaelW
You should seek out a copy of the book Touring Bikes by Tony Oliver. Its a bit old but the fundamentals of touring geometry, material and braze-ons hold good.
Threadless headsets are prefereable to threaded ones because the tools are lighter and easier to carry. 1 1/8" headsets have a larger bearing surface, especially useful on smaller sized frames.
The loading and forces on a touring bike are a bit different to race bikes. They need stiffness but not at the expense of strength, so large diameter, thin-walled race tubing is not appropriate.
One key aspect to remember is that touring bikes carry a lot of accessories. High end touring bike try to integrate all of this stuff neatly and minimise the number of clamps, eg brake, gear and lighting cable runs, racks and panniers, fenders and lights. Some bikes aim to fit industry-standard accessories, others depend on carefully made custom bits.
For some inspiration, check out
Thorn (sjscycles)
tout-terrain
Koga Miyata
Seconded! Couldn't agree more. After reading (and re-reading many times) Tony Oliver's book I ordered a frame from him and built a complete touring/expedition bike using Tony's advice. I replaced my trusty Dawes Super Galaxy with this and even though the Dawes was brilliant for long-distance touring, Tony's frame is just exquisite to ride. I still have the original spec sheet that Tony prepared, and my original order form. If you PM me your postal address Dimitri I'll photocopy them and post to you. In the meantime, if you're a frame builder, move heaven and earth to get hold of a copy of Touring Bikes by Tony Oliver. Stupidly, I lent my copy out and can't get it back. Thorn touring bikes are based on many ideas put forward in Tony's book.

The frame Tony built for me has the following. Main tubes, Reynolds 708: forks, seatstays and chainstays Columbus SP with wide clearances for 26" wheels, mudguards (fenders) and fat tyres (needs must sometimes!). The top tube has a slight slope, the forks have a nice curve at the end: there is plenty of clearance between pedal and front wheel. Vertical rear dropouts. Braze ons include 3 x sets of bottle bosses, pump peg on side of rear seat stay, cable guides on down tube for bar end shifters, cantilever brake bosses, chain hanger, front & rear pannier bosses, mudguard eyes, boss for dynamo on front fork and through the frame cable for dynamo. I went for strength and comfort, not lightness and this bike will go virtually anywhere, unladen or fully laden. It is just soooo comfortable to ride. It will never be sold by me - ever!

ps. It has a 1" threaded steerer.......!

Last edited by olly708; 01-18-12 at 06:15 PM.
olly708 is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 06:36 PM
  #7  
Senior Member
 
Cyclebum's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NE Tx
Posts: 2,766

Bikes: Tour Easy, Linear USS, Lightening Thunderbolt, custom DF, Raleigh hybrid, Felt time trial

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I know little of what's involved with building a frame, but if I were ordering a custom build for touring, money no object, I'd see about intergrating front and/or rear racks into the frame. I'd also ask the builder if he could engineer a convenient way to anchor the steerer to keep the front wheel from swinging around at will. And to make sure there was a stout place to attach a standard kick stand. 26" wheels. S&S couplers would be post build I guess.
Cyclebum is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 07:53 PM
  #8  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by meech151
My name is Dimitri Harris and I normally post in the frame builders forum as I am a framebuilder who builds mainly cross frames, I don't know much about touring frames other than they need to be comfortable, need longer chain stays for bags and heal clearance, and they need some good braze-ons for racks.

He said he needed a steel 1 1/8" fork for it because a 1" steel steerer was too flimsy. I was wondering if this is very common for touring frames because even though I have built a couple of these forks they are normally overkill as I have never known anyone to have problems with a 1" steel fork. .meechcustombikes.blogspot.com/
1" isn't too flimsy I think 1 1/8 has become more common. If there's an area where flimsiness can be a problem it would be too light of tubing for the top and down tube not the dimension of the steerer.

Comfort will come from bigger tires and longer wheelbase. These are more utilitarian bikes where light weight isn't a priority compared to a solid ride when loaded. 20yrs ago I had a custom made sport/tour bike with 26" wheels, 17.25"chainstays and misc. road tubing. It was a nice riding bike but couldn't handle large loads on the rear wheel without shimmying. Real beefy chainstays but I don't think the top tube was large enough diameter. Before that I had a Lippy touring frame made out of 531 road tubing (I assume) and it had an impressive shimmy requiring a two knee clamp to stop it.
I remember the first mtn bikes that were made with large diameter straight gauge tubing, nothing wrong with that. 30yrs ago I met the fellow who owned/ran Bullseye pulleys, he had an aluminum touring bike made to his specs. It had 18.5" stays and huge tubes, he said it was rock solid.
Whatever the difference is between a Surly Cross-Check and a LHT it's something other than chainstay length. I'm thinking the bigger top tube has something to do with it. I can ride with a big load on the rear of the LHT and it rides just fine, same load on the back of the Cross-Check and it feels noodly. Really noticable when getting out of the saddle.
Rear rack eyelets on the dropouts should be solid and not tacked on.
LeeG is offline  
Old 01-18-12, 09:34 PM
  #9  
-
 
seeker333's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 3,865

Bikes: yes!

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 282 Post(s)
Liked 38 Times in 36 Posts
OP is >19 months old.

I think he's built that frame by now.
seeker333 is offline  
Old 01-19-12, 02:47 AM
  #10  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Morcambe UK
Posts: 101

Bikes: ALAN alloy, Argos Reynolds 753, Tony Oliver Custom Reynolds/Columbus tourer, Raleigh Richmond (Reynolds 531), Raleigh Hustler all-steel roadster Raleigh Road Ace (531c)Raleigh Vitesse Carlton Corsair (531)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by seeker333
OP is >19 months old.

I think he's built that frame by now.
Yes, I did notice that, but only after I'd posted.......! Still the principles of building a rock solid touring bike don't change that much. You never know, he might want to build another one!
olly708 is offline  
Old 01-19-12, 04:22 AM
  #11  
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 5,205
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 140 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 81 Times in 64 Posts
Originally Posted by seeker333
OP is >19 months old.

I think he's built that frame by now.
curses, fooled again
LeeG is offline  
Old 01-20-12, 09:43 AM
  #12  
Senior Member
 
bud16415's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Erie Penna.
Posts: 1,141
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 37 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 3 Times in 2 Posts
Originally Posted by Cyclebum
I know little of what's involved with building a frame, but if I were ordering a custom build for touring, money no object, I'd see about intergrating front and/or rear racks into the frame. I'd also ask the builder if he could engineer a convenient way to anchor the steerer to keep the front wheel from swinging around at will. And to make sure there was a stout place to attach a standard kick stand. 26" wheels. S&S couplers would be post build I guess.
Great ideas.
bud16415 is offline  
Old 01-21-12, 05:35 AM
  #13  
Senior Member
 
irwin7638's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Kalamazoo, Mi.
Posts: 3,098

Bikes: Sam, The Hunq and that Old Guy, Soma Buena Vista, Giant Talon 2, Brompton

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 102 Post(s)
Liked 109 Times in 49 Posts
In forty years I've never experienced a problem with a 1" steerer. My current touring bike is a Rivendell Hunqapillar and the 1" steerer works fine.

Marc
irwin7638 is offline  
Old 01-22-12, 12:12 AM
  #14  
Randomhead
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Happy Valley, Pennsylvania
Posts: 24,462
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4 Post(s)
Liked 3,762 Times in 2,560 Posts
Originally Posted by Cyclebum
I know little of what's involved with building a frame, but if I were ordering a custom build for touring, money no object, I'd see about intergrating front and/or rear racks into the frame. I'd also ask the builder if he could engineer a convenient way to anchor the steerer to keep the front wheel from swinging around at will. And to make sure there was a stout place to attach a standard kick stand. 26" wheels. S&S couplers would be post build I guess.
S&S couplers are typically done during the build except for retrofits. I don't think I would agree to build built-in racks, but everything else is a good idea.
unterhausen is offline  
Old 01-22-12, 04:02 AM
  #15  
Banned
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: NW,Oregon Coast
Posts: 43,598

Bikes: 8

Mentioned: 197 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 7607 Post(s)
Liked 1,357 Times in 863 Posts
NB, 1" steerers get substantially thicker, on the bottom, aka butting,
for an incredible increase strength.
fietsbob is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
Squeezebox
Framebuilders
7
06-12-16 03:59 PM
Miles2go
Touring
61
07-09-15 08:21 AM
Zamboni_Jones
Touring
2
09-06-11 02:18 AM
geachyguy
Touring
5
02-11-11 10:32 AM
waterbugg
Long Distance Competition/Ultracycling, Randonneuring and Endurance Cycling
29
09-05-10 09:19 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.