I was intrigued by this post, and just to clarify for anyone else -- I think it refers to a link in the Adventure Cycling thread referenced hear about a woman who died in 2004 after (apparently) suffering severe shimmy on a downhill descent on a road bike. It's a good reminder of the dangers of encountering shimmy on high speed descents, but not necessarily relevant to any of the particular bikes mentioned here.

I read that post as well, before I even posted this thread as it comes up on Google. Not sure what to make of it. The guy comes across as a whiny blow hard who can't get over it, but at the same time it could be a real issue.

The question i have is, why is this not an issue with MTB's loaded with panniers since most MTBs are not designed for loads like that? That's why I was going for a touring specific bike and making it more mountain bike like.

The frame bag idea is great I just don't know if I would get my custom bag in time for touring, and it is more expensive than panniers from MEC (I sold my Arkel recumbent panniers last year).

The Adventure Cycling thread reflects what has been said elsewhere: the Salsa Fargo seems to be very particular about how the front panniers are loaded. Salsa says that (see their contributions in the Adventure Cycling thread). Dirt Rag magazine pointed that out in one of the first reviews of the bike. Other owners have reported that. I have no personal experience with one myself.

A '4130' 29er for the win. I'm slowly buying my gear. Unemployed in California sucks.

Attachment 161315

there's a whole movement in that exact direction.
BikePacking

http://www.CarouselDesignWorks.com
http://www.adventurecycling.org/

its even becoming mainstream
http://www.adventurecycling.org/stor...ack-medium.cfm

lots of ways to tour/camp

this bike would shimmy when I took my hands off the bars.
it was a Salsa Moto Rapido with a SID fork, OMM racks, CrossMax wheelset, SRAM X.O groupo
it was a very nice XC bike! it totally kicked ass in the dirt. as a race bike.
as a loaded touring bike... not so good.

I'm not totally sure what the deal was with that bike, but I think it was the fact that I chose a front rack that placed the panniers up high

now days, I have a front rack for The Hunter that has both options for the panniers, high and low. (ultimate low rider from Old Man Mountain)
no shimmies

Ha! On that other thread when you said "tipi with wood burning stove" I thought you were joking... that's hilarious!


Thanks for the links, I am feeling dumb now thinking I needed some "pannier loving" specific bike for touring so I could clamp them down and not have anything rattle loose. I think I am most certainly going to go the bike packing route. I hate pannier racks anyway, but at the same time I am not the biggest fan of trailers off roading. I have a 2 wheel trailer that is fantastic for groceries and errands (once I brought home a computer chair in it) but a huge pain to lift over obstacles.

On the roads panniers are not an issue but I discovered from my previous touring that I enjoy going off the beaten path more often then not... who needs rattly bulky panniers! I guess it kind of opens up what bikes I can pick now.

I will say this much about my personal quest to move to frame bags.

for me it was a process

that is:
touring often goes like this

1. pick the gear, and find the bags to cram it into
2. pick the bags, and find the gear to fit the bag.

that is to say, you will probably always fill what baggage you choose.
if you have 4 panniers, you will probably fill them

with the "BikePacking" method, you have to be much more discriminate with what you choose.

these days, lets say for instance touring Portland to LA in the next month, I'm pretty sure I could do that trip with just a front handle bar bag, and the big seatpost bag.
maybe a backpack... thats a big maybe

because the reality of that route and time of year is that there are towns every 30 miles or so, water is pretty much everywhere, Big Sur could pose some issues... but i live in this section, so its easy enough for me to simply ride 125 miles and go Monterey to Morro Bay...

so gear, and packing
comes down to time and resource management
+ ability & knowledge
explicit and tacit reasoning...

if you haven't already found this...

here's a big long Salsa Fargo thread:
http://forums.mtbr.com/showthread.ph...16#post7147916

try to contact Scott Felter
he lives in Banff
and makes bags!
his part time biz is called Porcelain Rocket
http://theporcelainrocket.wordpress.com/
http://www.orangegirlphotographs.com...ket-frame-bags
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Qk3citGkIY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UPKVX...eature=related

there is a ton of this kind of stuff
some on my website too http://www.AsanaCycles.com

no joke... tipi and stove
http://www.youtube.com/user/SelfProp.../0/8dJtY1rsPXc

and thats the 4 man
I have an 8 man that I lived out of for 1.5yrs while using a BOB trailer

I was working at the local hospital
working the graveyard shift
7 days in a row with 7 days off

during those 7 days I'd ride in one direction, then turn around and go back to work...

Just as a matter of interest, why? My racks weigh hardly anything, and certainly don't compromise handling, or portability, etc. I can see how you might find panniers a bind, but I've never found that they actually impede my progress. Yes, you can't easily lift a bike loaded with 40lbs of gear, but that is a function of weight rather than the conformation of the bags. And I hate riding with a backpack...

Just sayin'. I'd be interested in your perspective.

yes, it is a very interesting proposition

and yes, I'll have to side with the BikePacking technique as to panniers

and yes, I'd stand firm on my personal bias of the movement from 29er MTB to touring
vs
a Touring Bike to a MTB

or in that matter

a 29er period!

why?

I've grown up car less with a hippie dad on schwinn's and Ciocc's
from hoboing around SoCal, Ventura, etc...
to simply going to work, laundry, groceries, etc...
generator lights
baskets, et al...

so here it is...

frame bags are all about the way the weight is distributed
and LIMITING you to not carrying too much

???

ya...the weight is up high

stupid right?
its the worst possible place

right?

typically, yes...

but...
the reality is that when you pick up a MTB with frame bags, you only have to pick it up just a few inches and let the top tube rotate into your hip

???

really...

simply put;
the bike lays into your side

when you stop to get off of your bike to go over a log, or up a set of stairs... whatever
you only have to pick the bike up a few inches
and the bike rotates into your side
the wheels simply splay out to the side

pick up bike with right hand over toptube
left hand on left handle bar
pick up bike
and push left hand side of handlebar
the weight of the bike is in your hip, and the wheels have very little weight to leverage outward.

bcz the weight goes into your hip

try hoisting a loaded touring bike over something that is hip high

the panniers, being low, make it almost impossible to leverage the wheels away from your side
you literally have to pick the whole bike up and go over something

another technique is to simply reach all the way down to the down tube
and grab it with your right hand
while you place the top tube into your arm pit
pick up bike
place nose of saddle ontop of your right shoulder
hold bike with 1 hand

yes...

1 hand

stand up right
and walk

???

really... its the craziest thing

the backpack issue

yes, I'll concede to that much
and yes
more storage is...
or is not a solution

typically on a paved ride, from town to town, I'm not too hot on a back pack

but...

offerings from WingNut Design, Ergon, etc...
quiet honestly is a viable solution
case in point, take for instance how many riders were using hydration packs during the Tour Divide

obviously you'd try to limit the weight you put in your pack, as that weight transfers directly to your perineum

packs are kind of cool
there are things that I often times like to have on me, and in immediate grasp
nutritionals, electronics... cell phone? <--- i.e. Portland to Ventura (i know it sucks, and I do dislike having my cell phone on tour, but often times, while on a Civil Tour, I end up taking calls. Simply put, sometimes I have to have those phone calls) its a major reason why I choose paved tours, vs something like the TDR.

TDR... if you have biz that you have to tend to, its going to be very limited while en route. at least, on a paved tour, you can make those absolutely necessary calls, while en route. hands free

while I've never broken a rack
or wrecked a pannier

on the TDR a buddy's rack did break off and go tumbling down the fire road at about 30mph...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l-0YrbkCNJ4 (at the 5 min mark)

racks and panniers never have a 100% solid connection
neither do frame bags.

panniers will have a small gap at the interface with the rack... in that gap, the panniers will "slap" back and forth a million little times
on pavement, its usually not a big deal, as the smoothness of pave reduces the slapping

as soon as you hit a fire road, its going to be smacking around over and over and over
is that Morse Code coming from the panniers and racks? tick, tick, tick, tick...
if it doesnt break, it will be a small miracle

the BikeBacking Technique is soft
the bags are soft
the mountings are typically straps
everything is soft
basically everything conforms to shape(s)
compression
etc...

so the bags squish against things.

for the handlebar bag, typically it will rub against the headtube
so every time you move the steertube
the handlebar bag will rub, thats a hot spot
the straps on the bike's frame, mud and grit collect... likely will rub the paint off of your bike. maybe apply electrical tape to those spots

I'm not sure what else to parallel
racks and panniers are like external frame packs of the 70's + boots and primus stoves?
frame bags are like... bags without frames, and keens?

on the pavement, a 29er shod in any kind of tyre in the "roadie"/700c realm is really fast.

last year I rode Portland to Ventura on a set of Schwalbe Marathon Cross in 37c
plus along the way, when I got to Arcata, I did the 12hrs of Humboldt and place 3rd with 12 laps, about 92 miles and over 10,000 of climbing
obviously took off the bags

I've done a bunch of rides to Ventura and LA (family)
shod in WTB Vulpines (my favorite tyre), I can make it to Morro Bay (about 125 miles) in 9hrs. not busting my ass in the effort

on a 29er with a 2.1' tyre and 48x11t gearing = about 127 gear inches

compared to a road bike
53x11t 700x23c tyre = 116 gear inches

so the 29er has more top end gear
and being a MTB obviously has much lower gear

plus its obviously a MTB so it can actually withstand the rigors of being in the dirt

on the road at 50mph on a descent, like Devil's Slide on HWY 1, or coming down off of Liggett Pass
the 29er with a 203mm front disc brake...
and frame bags
not panniers

this set up is actually really fast
light enough to bunny hop

???

ya... bunny hop things like uneven pavement
cracks, etc...

brakes big enough to simply put the binders on, and trail brake
yup... like a motorcycle

I use X.O gripshift with Avid BB7's
this allows the rider to brake and shift at the same time

so you can go down something really steep on the brakes, and shift downshift when you get to the bottom and have to go up
i.e. gully, stream crossing, draw, etc...

frame bags...
AMTRAK
everything fits inside the Amtrak Bike Box
yes the Amtrak Bike Box is huge
frame bags... no racks to deal with.

simply put racks and panniers are more hardware
hardware is a liability
1" wide nylon strap is very strong

its just a different technique
everything is strapped down

vs

everything is held up
i.e. metal rods for rack tubing

my brother works at PowerPlant Choppers in LA
one of his favorite things to talk about is "Push and Pull"
everything is push or pull
at any given moment a lever is either push or pull

push or pull

racks are push
frame bags are pull

racks hold things up
frame bags pull things in

nylon strap
vs
metal rods

holding things up + mounting hardware = slap = snap
pulling things in = no slap = no snap

metal vs nylon
heavy vs light

big vs small
complex vs simple

racks = hard angles
bags = soft rounds

crashing with racks is more apt to bend/break something
crashing with frame bags, is usually not an issue

Do any of you who use packs and not panniers use wildland fire fighting packs?
I know a lot of K9 Search dog handlers like packs like these instead of those that sit higher on the back.
More weight on hips, less on shoulders - more stable and very comfortable.

http://www.truenorthgear.com/product...g.php?path=0_1

I use an Enduro made by WingNut Design
http://www.wingnutgear.com/press.cfm?id=16
I've also been using a Platypus gravity filter

but I'm very much inclined to change to a Sawyer filter
http://www.sawyerproducts.com/images/SP161p-hr.GIF

another decent little filter is Clear2Go
http://www.clear2o.com/

with Clear2Go, there is almost no reason to never have a water filter with you

water filters.... a game changer... not doubt

a piece on my buddy Jeff Boatman of Carousel Designs
http://mysierramountaintimes.com/?p=3276

Well, my last panniers were Arkles. The panniers were great, I should say its the racks that are annoying. For some reason I have been using the term interchangeably.

On paper it seems a lot simpler to have frame bags and less weight for offroading.

I would think panniers offroad on trails trying to haul your bike up hills would be a bit of a pain in the rear compared to a lighter bike frame setup.

The problem is carrying lots of unsecured weight, not a 1lb rack. A rack can provide an easy mount for 12lbs of well secured bags OR panniers carrying a lot more. If you're going the ultralight route you don't need panniers but it's not the rack and panniers putting on the weight, it's the stuff in them.

As I look back at the thread which is interesting to me because I used to do touring on "civilized roads" (though maybe the animals in the woods are really much more civilized) but really liked the offroad stuff and am planning on buying a frist mtn bike soon...........anyway.........it sounds like the OP is not talking about too many situatoin where the loaded bike would have to be carried.

I do recall some times when we had to carry our loaded touring bikes short distances and they went over our shoulders with the hand grabbing the downtube but not sure the mtn bike type of frame could "fit" there. I carried a toe clip strap to keep the front wheel from turning under some parking/carrying situations

I thought about that and the only thing I can think (Because I crossed Oregon on the "transamerica trail" which seems to be the same route as it was 30 years ago) ........is that there were some very long very fast descents. I am not sure I would be going down a mountain grade at 50 plus mph anymore anyway.

I had the shimmy problem with my old road bike and the knees grasping the top tube worked in my case. All we had available were rim brakes back then and the issue was overheating and blowing the tires so you sucked it in flew. I think everyone on that route in the old 70s bikes who also had front panniers was dealing with similar issues.

I gather disc brakes may be better for this but that you still can't use them as a drag brake like you could a drum brake. No disc brake experience but I would put that into consideration. I think I would want them anyway.

Getting a Pugsley built is easy any LBS can order the parts and build one for you.

You can use Endomorphs, Larry's [both Surly 4" tires] as well as a number of other tires [Big Apples, Marathon XRs, Extremes] on Large Marge rims. I started with Endos and have a set of Larry's to put on this winter. The tire selection issue really isn't one...quite a few good choices.

You need offset wheels to match the chainline of the Pugsley. Not a big deal...your LBS will handle that when they build your hoops.

Surly Pugsley.

Our regular poster Vik has one and gone from BC to Mexico - all offroad on 4" wide Endos! ;)

And hey, Surly now sells complete builds...

The Surly Forum
http://forums.mtbr.com/forumdisplay.php?f=111

Trekking bike, trekking Bars.. IG hub drivetrain Magura Hydrostop brakes
http://www.cyclofiend.com/working/20...clark1008.html