Sounds like you're attached to that big blue bag that worked so well on the river. The road is a different river and the bike isn't a raft/canoe. Speaking as someone who has ridden with gear piled high in the back and other combinations mentioned (bar bags cantilievered far forward and high) you'll do better with the lightest load well secured to the bike distributed close to the hubs and your mass. When the load is small you can afford to put it high but when the load gets heavy get it low. You'll enjoy fast descents a lot more with medium panniers well secured to the rack than a big blue bag strapped high on the rack. I understand the convenience standpoint of that one big blue bag holding everything, toss it in the raft, take it out.

ps. really check out Bekologist pictures, especially #3 and #5 the 520 ultra light rig with water bottles on the front fork. That's what you do when you want to ride and have your gear and bike move together. Simply putting that big blue bag on the rear rack will give you one floppy package when hitting bumps, flying through turns, or out of the saddle chugging up a mtn.

Okay, I am going to have to yield to the more experienced. Seems weight distribution is of great importance and I do understand that. Cost is a concern here, so maybe I should revisit the idea of towing a trailer? Can I do that with my road bike and take the expense away from me having to buy a new/used bike or a touring bike is really best? Seems it is going to be a little more expensive buying new bags and such. I do see trailers for sale on CL for pretty cheap.

Hcurtis, you mentioned that your grocery getter bike is a Nishiki, what model? If you get a trailer you're automatically pulling 15lbs. Put a 5lb tent and 5lbs of clothes and sleeping bag and youre already carrying 25lbs. You could put 21lbs of gear in 2lbs of panniers on 2lbs of bike racks and you're carrying 11 more lbs of stuff for the same total weight pulling up hills. Now if you're carrying 50lbs of gear the trailer could make sense. Seriously check out Bekologists set up. It's a lot more fun to ride a bike than pull a heavy load. Honestly if I was in your shoes I'd look around for a used CrossCheck and make sure it had the right wheels and gears for the load and keep the load under 25lbs.

Here's my 2 panniers + barbag rig for my Texas - Great Divide MTB Route - Nor Cali. tour earlier this year. Total cargo weight under 28 lbs. That was pared down to 24-25 lbs along the way.

http://picasaweb.google.com/lh/photo...eat=directlink

That's a pretty generous bias in favor of the panniers/racks combo IMO. The non-trailer/non-racks&panniers gear is the same regardless of what is carried - so make sure you restrict any comparison/math to like-to-like or equivalent-to-equivalent.

When I've tallied up weights and compared 4 panniers and front&back racks to a Bob Yak, the difference is about 3 pounds if medium duty racks are considered (almost even if heavy duty, expedition racks and top of the line Arkel/Ortleib panniers are used). If only 2 panniers are used, obviously the math will come out different.

Pulling an unloaded trailer on flats is all but effortless --- the 15 pounds of a Bob and its sack are meaningless here. Unloaded panniers always act as sails, unloaded or not --- sometimes more noticeably than others.

Having been out with panniers and with just a single wheel trailer on weekenders/3-4 day tours a couple times over the last two months, I think the difference in ON-ROAD riding is that I needed to gear down before hills slightly earlier when towing the trailer than when riding with panniers. I found the trailer easier to pack yet disliked the single compartment style of the trailer bag (similar to what Ortleib panniers use, though 2 panniers creates 2 internal compartments and thus some organization).

The main difference I found when towing a trailer or using panniers was when I ran into crosswinds - direct head/tailwinds resulted in no difference in handling. With crosswinds, the panniers acted much more like sails than the trailer. And it didn't take much of a deviation from 0 or 180 degrees off my direction of travel to notice the difference in balance/handling - especially at low speeds against medium-high winds. This was also observable when being passed by trucks/buses/rv's. The bike & trailer definitely handled better when being passed than did the 4 pannier setup.

A minor secondary difference was when starting. For me, panniers required slightly less effort to get rolling on flat land than the trailer. Once rolling, the trailer was less noticeable in terms of balance/handling - on flat land.

Another consideration is parking the bike. Will you be comfortable laying the bike down? Will you want to use a kickstand? Laying the bike on panniers, by definition, introduces wear material and may crush the contents. A kickstand adds some weight, may not be strong enough for the load with panniers, and may introduce its own heel strike issues. With a trailer, will there be a wall, tree table or fence to lean the bike against so you don't have to lay the bike and trailer down together - so as to avoid introducing any twisting forces to the frame when you "roll" the bike and trailer back to vertical? Yes, you can use a kickstand here also - but, will it hold both bike and trailer which are longer than the bike alone? You CAN mount a kickstand to a trailer - that has its own issues/benefits. Don't count on a trailer-based kickstand to be able to be used alone (without one also on the bike).

For super light touring, trailers aren't the way to go - that's for sure. However, they do have their place - I'd say the transition is between 25 and 35 pounds of all gear and food. If you can stay below 25 pounds, handlebar&rear bags or panniers and racks would seem to be the way to go. Above 40-45 pounds of gear, I'm partial to the trailer. Between 25 and 45 pounds, I think I'd lean towards the trailer for flat routes and panniers for hilly ones.

The one overriding factor would be if I was traveling a route that had 40-50 mile stretches without water resupply - especially if facing temperatures above 90 and/or winds above 15 mph. Then I'd go with the trailer every time due to the need to carry sufficient water and possibly emergency rations that I wouldn't otherwise carry.

thx, you said it better and from experience. The op attachment to a large dry bag that is used in river rafting where weight isn't as critical as in cycling makes me think he's biased to carrying a heavier load than is likely were he to load that same weight on the bike and drag it up and down hills, and into stealth camping areas. His criteria appear to be: nice road bike, something unique, carry big river running dry bag.

http://www.nrsweb.com/shop/product.a...0&pdeptid=1630

LeeG - Well, the Bob Yak cargo area measures roughly 25"L x 16"W x 18"H while the size of that bag you linked to is 16" diameter x 33" tall. I certainly wouldn't try that on my rear rack, especially if that was on a lightweight road bike. Heck, that bag almost meets the recommended load height limit for a Bob Yak of 18"..........

Also, the OP, in his original post, mentioned 40 pounds of water carried on a rear rack. I'd never try that with other gear on my bike, especially not on any hills. OTOH, 5 gallons towed in a trailer, that's not something I'd worry about too much in terms of handling.

You can use whatever bag you already have for kayaking with any trailer you buy. Craigslist and eBay are both sources for used trailers --- Then the question becomes single or double-wheel? I'd guess most tourers are split between the Bob Yak/Ibex single-wheel and the Burley Nomad double-wheel though there are other alternatives like Extrawheel. The advantage of following the crowd in this case is thier experience/knowledge base in terms of reliability and assistance. For instance, there's a local guy selling a two-wheel knockoff of a different manufacturer. The difference is about 15 pounds of dry-weight in his trailer's design.

My personal preference on an on-road-only tour would be a two-wheel (probably a Burley) but I have seen more Bob Yak/Ibex's than Burleys on the road. Off-road, I'd go with a single-wheel based solely on the recommendations/stories of others. In the city, I'd go with a two-wheel due to it's easy of loading/stability while loading, but the disadvantage would be its width in comparison to that of a single-wheel.

One other consideration, a single-wheel trailer is generally easier to lift over a fence for/when stealth camping.

on even the ultralite rigs I've pictured, ALL have over a gallon of water capacity showing.

I had an extra liter in the carradice bagged travelers check in the top photos. I'll regularily carry 10 liters atop the rack on my trad touring bike setups and 4 liters in bottles. enough for a good distance between potable water.

I took his experience of carrying the 5gal as his reference for carrying a lot of weight on the rack, not a prefered load of water. I've got a couple of those NRS bags, there's a smaller version he might have. Either way it's not exactly the most user friendly package to adapt to cycling.
These are nice but not for constant rubbing against a metal rack. Well secured they're useful.
http://www.seatosummit.com/products/display/63

The OP specifically mentioned 5 gallons on a rear rack - almost more than 1.5 times the total you describe carrying and 5x that you said you've seen in pictures. You're also speaking as a fairly well-conditioned and experienced solo cycling tourist, not as an inexperienced cyclist touring with an equally inexperienced person.

As someone who ran out of water on hikers twice, I tend to err on the side of caution, especially when I have to consider travelling companions. Your mileage obviously varies.

Oh, and I'm not suggesting he carry that much water ---- just using it as a reference.

LeeG -> good point on material rub on the metal rack/trailer bed. I stuck a piece of plastic under my trailer bag to limit that wear. The weight was negligible. I've seen others use a thin sheet of aluminum. Most people use nothing.

Sweet!

That is correct. I was using the 5 gallon water as an example. I have gone to a store and picked up a 5 gallon water container and put it on my rack and rode home. Only about a 5 mile ride, but my point was the 5 gal was an extreme load that shifts around. Probably about the worst load I can think of. Was it stable? Not really, but doable for a short trip. Only did it twice. After that, I drove a car. Anyway, thanks for all this information. I am going to head down to the LBS tomorrow and discuss this as well as get a feel for how much components and such cost, incase I find a frame and fork.

You guys are the best. I am leaning towards a little different load configuration. Seems distribution is a big consideration. I weigh 190 lbs mysel and am 6'2". That is a load on a bike in itself. The lowest I could weigh is about 180. Still a lot of weight.

distribution and how well it's secured, you're not a big load for modern touring bikes . My partner in the shop was 6'4" and weighed about 185. His lightly built road wheels held up fine because he was a careful rider and didn't carry much on the few trips be took. The basic 32 spoke wheels on a CrossCheck would be sturdy enough for a light load and if you wanted to carry a big one there's wheels plenty strong to carry you and 40lbs more. Put 10 of 30lbs on the front wheel and ride on a plain 36 spoke wheel with heavy rim and you'd be fine.

Hmm. I wonder what you think about me considering I'm 5'11" and 240+ lbs. with 40+ pounds of gear/food/on-bike equipment(racks, lights, etc.) when riding with panniers. I use stock Bikes Direct Windsor Tourist machine-made wheels that have been retrued by a local LBS mech. The tires are the stock 700x28c rubbers.

;-)

A local mechanic explained once that most bikes are made with a 300 lb+ design load and that unless you go below 28 spoke wheels on a modern bike you have nothing to worry about. 32 or 36 is better so you don't have to true the wheel as often, especially if you go off hard surfaces. The real wear and tear for us big dudes is in the tires- the thinner it is, the more noticeable. It's about abrasion and lb per sq in at the tire contact point. So other than making sure you get tires as wide as you can fit under your fenders for durability, the rest is kinda' a matter of taste. As far as weight distribution, the weight of the rider is centered over the center of gravity in a properly designed bike and it won't matter much.

It's the weight as you get away from the CG that you want to watch out for and keep as low as practical. But in the real world, 40 lb is not really enough to hugely affect a 240 lb load of bike+rider unless the stuff shifts around or is improperly loaded left-right. The exception is mountain biking because of the weird forces and angles applied as you bump your way around. Those guys don't even bother with panniers and keep things in a tight pack on their back or on the frame. Think about it: a 20 lb backpack on the back of a rider has a bigger lever-arm than 40 lb behind and in front of you, yet they do fine.