Eternal_Tourist

Yeah so I've been on the awesome paleolithic diet for a few months now and it's great for short duration high intensity activities like fighting and weightlifting but I went hiking the other day on it and bonked bigtime. Felt like ****! Couldn't even complete a 12 km hike!

How do you do endurance activities on paleo? I thought eating lots of dried fruits could give me the required carbs but eating enough of those to get the carbohydrate content I need would give me the squirts pretty quick so how do you get around that? Is touring low intensity enough that the gluconeogenesis from eating meat is able to keep up with demands?

yoder

It isn't as hard as it seems at first. You need to get most of your energy from high quality fats, not from protein (which is very inefficient), and you don't need a lot of carbs, but grab fruits and vegetables as you can, but they are bulky relative to their payoff. Dried fruit can almost be too sugary to be paleo anyway. Take almond butter. Dip an apple or whatever in it if you want, or just eat it straight. Take some olive oil and coconut oil. Canned wild salmon, quality tuna, or sardines work. Coconut milk. When you eat your salmon, slather it with oil. If your touring hard, you can add some banana or whatever, but those are a pain to carry. If your cooking, do up a bunch of bacon, and snack on it a lot. Eggs are also a super food, but can be a bit of a pain to carry. But you cook up a half dozen or dozen at a time, and eat them as needed. Also, you could have pork cracklins (the kind that are just the fat and nothing added). You can also do quality jerky and stuff, but you can overdo it on protein, so you really would be better off with fattier meat. Roasted nuts are good. Tanka Bars. Maybe a little dark-chocolate-covered bacon.

NoReg

If I have the right diet, then I read about it on the RIV reader, and I got the feeling they were anti endurance exercises. My diet when touring is to eat very sensibly, no food pollution, but also listen to my needs. If I need a lot more fat, I guess my body will let me know.

safariofthemind

One thing people forget is that in our ancient past, hunger was a constant companion. People's lives were a constant search for food, with weight loss, followed by gorging when they found food (say a tree with ripening fruit). This may not be an "ideal" to follow. The body's ability to adapt is awesome but trying to replicate the boom-bust cycle is not necessarily in your best interest IMO. Trying to keep processing down, balancing the sources, lowering meat and dairy intake, those are the basics but listening to your body is the sine qua none of it. If you start to lose weight (and you don't want that) then eat up.

Cyclebum

You should not have bonked. Maybe something else is going on to cause the problem.

A read of this tells me that it is basically a modified Atkins. Lots of protein and fat, restricted carbs. Nothing to suggest it would limit the endurance of a conditioned person.

Carbs are great for high burst energy output like fighting, sprinting and bicycle racing. For sustained, relatively low level activities like cycle touring or hiking, the paleolithic diet should be just fine. The key here is to maintain a balance between calorie intake/utilization and work output. Natural fruit juices will provide quick energy boost, as needed.

I purposely have lost weight on tour, and not bonked, by restricting my caloried intake while simultaneous avoiding sprint touring. A slow to moderate pace will reduce the work load to a level the body can sustain with fat burning.

cyccommute 

Your body is screaming at you and you aren't listening! If you bonk while hiking then, no, gluconeogenesis won't keep up with your demands while bicycle touring. Bicycling is low impact but not low intensity. Sitting in a car watching the scenery go by is low intensity. Bicycling isn't!

Converting fats and proteins to glucose to fuel the muscles...i.e. gluconeogenesis...is for when the body is in starvation mode or in intense anaerobic exercise situations. While it occurs during aerobic exercise, it's not the ideal situation for long term endurance. And bicycling is a low impact, high intensity endurance sport. There's a reason that bicycling and pasta go together like chocolate and peanut butter. You need carbohydrates to do endurance sports.
Weight lifting does very well on your diet but endurance sports don't. The time line is just too long.

cyccommute 

I have to disagree, Cyclebum. Efforts like fighting, sprinting, weight lifting, etc. do very well on high protein/low carbohydrate diets. All those kinds of activities you could consider to be 'cave manish' and would do well on a paleolithic diet. But if you have to reduce your efforts to avoid bonking while relying on fats for muscle fuel, you are doing something wrong. From Wikipedia on Gluconeogenesis:

Two things to understand from the above quote. First a process that is endergonic is one that requires a lot of energy to make happen. For the body to make glucose from fats it has to convert an unoxidized material to an oxidized material. It is a slow and incredibly energy intense process. It also creates lots of undesirable byproducts.

That brings us to point number two. Ketosis. Ketosis occurs naturally and we can usually deal with it. But take it too far, i.e. depend too much on the conversion of fats and proteins to glucose, and the body kicks into ketoacidosis. That is very, very, very bad

The following from the Wikipedia article on exercise shows what happens to performance when depending on fats for fuel:

Notice that it is the switch from carbohydrate to fat that causes the dreaded 'bonk'.

Cyclebum

I agree cycling is low impact. It's only a high intensity sport if you choose to make it such. Touring can be low intensity or high intensity. Your choice. When I want to burn fat, it's low intensity, protein/fat orientated. Think peanut butter/cheese. When I'm in a hurry, it's high intensity, carb orientated. Think Snicker bar. I'm rarely in a hurry. (An occasional carb boost may in order even under gluconeogenesis when slow touring.)

We're all different. What works for some won't work for others. The op may have a gluconeogenesis problem if he bonks while hiking. Cavemen hiked a lot.

safariofthemind

All these diets come and go because people are looking for something new or a reason to get "closer to nature". Truth is we don't really know what works best in the long run. Remember, cavemen's lives were "nasty, brutish and short."

https://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/254050.html

wahoonc

And as pointed out everyone's needs are a bit different. There was a study done several years ago (Japanese?) that advanced the theory that where your ancestors came from had a lot to do with how your body processes various types of energy. Did you come from a vegetable/fruit society or from meat eaters or a combination? I do fine on a balanced diet that is slightly carb heavy. My wife does not tolerate carbs well at all she needs more protein and minimal fats.

Aaron

Cyclebum

Truth is that relative to touring, it's really all a matter of how hard you're pedaling, ie, how much energy you're using over a period of time. If you're moving fast, you need quick energy in the form of glycogen/carbs. Moving slow, gluconeogenesis should be fine. Most mix it up, depending on their personal needs. That's best.

Many long distance touring cyclist probably short themselves on the protein needed to preserve muscle mass. Carbs are a lot cheaper and easier to obtain. I try to consume at least the equivalent of a can of tuna a day, in addition to my usual peanut butter and cheese.

Want to know if you're burning fat on a tour? Get youself some ketone sticks from the phamacy and pee on them. If they change color, you're burning fat. For the purist, that was/is the way to know how well the Atkins diet is working.

If you purposely or accidently limit your calorie intake on a tour to less than you're using, you'll lose weight, and have less power to pedal. A law of physiology. You'll have less burst power if your glycogen stores are depleted or if you become hypoglycemic. A leisurely pedal thru the hinterlands should be comfortably possible for any conditioned cyclist on any kind of life sustaining diet.

I speak from experience and a tiny bit of academic knowledge. Food science is very controversial.

freebooter

Never used such a diet myself but I did come across this page a while ago that promotes a similar diet for backpacking. Not really that much detail though. He does seem to suggest that it might take a while to adapt to such a diet.

https://www.chrisknapton.com/ULTRALIGHT/fat.html

cyccommute 

Let's define touring first. If you have someone carry all your stuff, you are on a long bike ride. I'd (almost) agree that you could make it a " leisurely pedal thru the hinterlands". If the terrain goes from flat to not flat, all bets are off on that " leisurely pedal thru the hinterlands". Even an unloaded bike takes effort if you are climbing hills. Effort equates to glucose usage. Perhaps you could get away with burning only body fat for a quick trip to the top of a hill but if the hill stretches into hills or the hill becomes a mountain, you'll quickly find the limit of gluconeogenesis and you will bonk.

Add the weight of even a modest touring load and the effort required increases significantly.

It does depend, a very little, on the individual but we all use glucose to power our muscles. Even if you are burning fat or protein, that fat and protein have to be converted to glucose before we can utilize it. Let's also not lose sight of Eternal_Tourist's comment:

First he knows that what he is eating is inadequate. Second he underestimates the energy that a 12 km hike takes. That's a substantial hike. Around my neck of the woods, 12 km is probably an all day affair requiring lots of water and lots of food. Mostly because a 12 km hike in my neck of the woods would involve significant altitude changes which requires more effort and more energy.

I'd say that if he doesn't want to 'feel like ****' on a 12 km hike or a 50+ mile bicycle day, he should ditch the caveman diet and eat the diet of the next level of human civilization...the agrarian diet. Grains, carbohydrates, some protein, etc. If you've noticed the 'caveman' has died out...as safariofthemind said... in a life that was "nasty, brutish and short." Agrarian societies flourished and developed literature, art, science, etc. Sure they developed the diseases of old age but at least they lived to an old age. Which diet is better?

Eternal_Tourist

Cycocommute: I'm not here to debate the merits of eating a Paleo diet vs a more typical modern one, I eat Paleo, I look great on it and feel great and have at least 30% more strength than I did on a trad. diet. I'll quit bike touring before I quit this diet.

To the others: Thank you for the advice, I will try eating more fat while on the go. I hadn't had enough fat that day that is for sure.

cyccommute 

How incredibly sad. You say that you 'feel great' but you also say that you felt like **** on the hike. Which is it? If I had an activity that I like, I'd give up a diet that hinders my performance before I'd give up the activity. I already have. When I tour or even when I ride recreationally, I have to be extremely careful about the fat content of the food that I eat. High fat foods will cause me to bonk...and puke...as surely as not eating will (not the puking part).

Try an experiment. Do the same 12 km hike on a more traditional diet, i.e. higher complex carbohydrates, and see how you feel afterwards. Then decide which diet is better for performance. I'm not talking about eating fast foods drenched in fat here but good complex carbohydrates that your body can utilize during the hike.

Cyclesafe

Human nutrition is settled science. And all humans are the same. Enter your actual "on tour" diet as a recipe here, then supplement with what you think you might actually find on the road to bring everything into balance. If you eat too little of a balanced diet you lose weight. Simple.

ricohman

If some diet is more important than cycling then I guess you have to decide what you want.
But there is no way a change in diet is going to give a trained athlete a 30% increase in anything. But maybe to some guy who just got off the couch.
I think Cyclesafe hit the nail on the head.

Pukeskywalker

I think the cultural narrative of the starving savage is a myth for the most part. Hunter gatherer tribes lived in abundance, gathering food averaged about 2 or 3 hours per day, the rest spent in leisure time. The invention of agriculture introduce famine and starvation

Pukeskywalker

you might get some good meal tips if you ask on ******.com/r/paleo

There's also this blog paleovelo.com - paleo cyclist. Not sure if he tours though

Eternal_Tourist

And you're a scientist? God.

I have hiked since I was a kid on a traditional diet and know well what it's like. Most of the time I am in town and therefore I have to considerf my performance there first. My job involves some significant physical exertion at times and now that I'm on Paleo it's much easier to handle. I used to get sick all the time with the common cold and all it took was being in the presence of one sick person. Now on Paleo I've worked in close proximity to many sick people and haven't gotten sick. My memory is greatly improved my workout recovery has improved dramatically and I lost most of the chub around my middle and have become nicely defined. Oh yeah and I can lift a whole lot more weight in the gym and feel more confident and don't experience depression anymore which was an occasional issue before so yeah, I'd say switching back to a traditional diet just because I bonked on one hike would be kind of stupid. I'd say it's probably be wiser to dial in my nutrition better and try again. BTW I don't think I need to take advice from an ostensibly fat smug ******* like you. If you were such a hotshot you would be able to understand the difference between feeling good in general and falling flat once.

And as far as people in the Paleolithic era living short brutish lives I think that has more to do with the life they lived than what they ate. In this day and age (unlike then) a broken arm is no big deal. We don't have to hunt dangerous animals for food and there's little chance of starving to death in developed countries. That is why their lives were short it's not because they ate red meat.

Oh and to whoever said agrarian societies prevail because they are better has to be some sort of ******, agrarian societies allow greater population growth in a given area which strengthens those societies and allows them to spend less time finding food and more on taking over neighboring areas. If agrarian societies were so great we wouldn't have such depletion of the earth's resources in such a small span of time, before agriculture there was more of a balance in nature.

And this is why I didn't want to debate. Could fill up a ****ing room with this trash when all I wanted was a bit o'advice on what I can eat to prevent crashing the next time go on a hike.

****ing muppets

Eternal_Tourist

Thank you!

Eternal_Tourist

Oh yeah and another plus for paleo, actually two: There's at least one professional MMA fighter who is in the UFC and undoubtedly more I just don't know about them specifically.

I also work with a guy who's a semi pro bodybuilder and when he gets ready for a competition...you guessed it! PALEO!

So yeah, I'd say even one of those guys alone trumps your dumbass opinions cycco.

p*r*i*c*k

xyzzy834

I'd say that's uncalled for.

Cyccommute has pointed out the obvious inconsistencies in your logic. He quoted some medical definitions about the big words you're throwing around.

Paleo rage??? Is there such a thing?

For all the things you claim a paleolithic diet has done for you, you can't say it has made you more personable.

Eternal_Tourist

If being personable means taking disrespect lying down then no, it hasn't encouraged me to do that. I don't see the inconsistencies in my logic about bonking that one time maybe you could point them out to me.

Better yet maybe we could prevent this thread from turning into a pis*sing match and let it die now that the handful of on topic replies I have received have given me enough relevant advice to do what I set out to do in the first place.

Takara

Thanks, cyccommute, for your attempt to educate this rude fellow about basic metabolism. It doesn't appear to have helped him, but your patient explanation will be around for the next person who searches on "paleo diet" here.