You are right, I have had bikes that the disc brakes were flawless and I forgot about, but lately that hasn't been the case and I had to vent. Any of my cantis were flawless though. I had BB7's on the bike that was flawless, but also on the bike that is driving me crazy...funny how that works.

What about equal priced discs and cantis? There are workable cantis for 15 bucks. But Pauls are super easy to adjust and in the same relative price range to BB7s. They are boutique so getting them at a discount is tough, but otherwise the pricing is in the ballpark. I doubt many people here are using caliper brakes in the same price range as the discs that are on MTBs, there are some very fancy caliper brakes if you want them.

Rob, thanks for the data. Removal is a fair point. I think they are stupid but can't say it hurts much to provide them, it is a very small BO. I need to figure out some cool thing to keep in there. I keep spokes in my panniers and they look brand new at the end of the tour. It would be tough to do them any serious harm. Some people like keeping them in the seatpost, though I really hate moving the seat once I have it dialed in. Though I never have to replace a spoke so maybe that is not much of an objection.

Avid BB7s (road or mtn) sell for <$50 at many etailers such as jenson, price point, etc. I paid $43 and 45 for the last two I bought.

This places their cost well in the center of the price range for cantis, which range from $15 to $165 per brakeset.

Isn't putting 700c wheels on a touring bike that small going to create geometry issues? I ride a 52 cm, and my fendered 700c Gunnar Sport presents me with pretty major toe overlap, and that's with 700x28 tires. Going up to fat touring tires on a 46cm makes me think your foot would cover half the wheel.

My Bridgestone XO-2, which is the same size as the Gunnar, has 26 inch wheels and fenders, yet there's no slow speed handling worry.

Nice catch :o

Lots of discussion regarding the spoke holder. I wonder home many of you have had to replace a spoke on the road. I taped a set of spokes on my Blackburn rack in 1979 and just took them off last year - good tape, but never used them. Seems like properly built wheels don't have spoke breakage issues, and I know of no one that has had a front break.

On the disc vs. Cantis my XTR discs on my Marin have never needed adjustment in 7 years and my BB7s on my new Salsa Vaya have been great for the first few hundred miles. Very easy to adjust and once set seem just fine - and no grinding in the rain.

Some people do break spokes, but I agree that it's far from the most common issue to arise. But having a spare on hand and not needing it seems like a far less hardship then needing one and not having it. That's why I like the idea of a spoke holder, fasten those spokes in and never think about them again if you're lucky. But there are certainly other options. It just seems like the spoke holder, even if not used, is of very little consequence, so I don't know why it bothers some people.

And I agree with MassiveD about not wanting to mess with the seat post, but for as often as I need a spoke on the road (almost never) it seems like a reasonable solution.

No one commented on this, so I contacted Surly for an expert answer.

The third hole on the left dropout (the one that protrudes from the dropout body, much like a regular rack/fender mount boss) is indeed there specifically for the addition of a Rohloff hub, which like all IGH must be anchored to the bike frame in some way.

Rohloff has at least 5 solutions to this problem, depending on the bike. One use a torque arm attached to the CS, another uses an arm between the external gear mechanism and ISO disc brake mount, another uses a plate with raised tab which engages a slot on a special dropout which the frame must integrate into its construction, another uses a slotted plate which engages the ISO disc mount hardware, and yet another uses the same slotted plate which engages a specially located bolt in the dropout.

The third hole in the left dropout of the Disc Trucker is a receptacle for the OEM2 Rohloff plate, diagrammed below.

This is a neat solution for one-half of the Rohloff retrofit problems. The other still remains - chain tension - which is solved by either an eccentric BB, horizontal dropouts, or a rear-derailleur-like Rohloff chain tensioner.

http://www.rohloff.de/en/products/sp...ain_tensioner/

And finally, you still have to contend with routing two full-length housings from the left dropout to Rohloff's unigue gear shifter, which is not drop handlebar mountable without modification or special parts.

"Avid BB7s (road or mtn) sell for <$50 at many etailers such as jenson, price point, etc. I paid $43 and 45 for the last two I bought."

Agreed, as I said. But while they are a better deal, they are not a cheap brake, just a large volume one where many good deals are available. Comparing apples to apples quality wise I think they compare to quite expensive cantis. Now on value, no question they are a lot more likely to come cheap. When it comes to complete builds it is unlikely that the same wholesale dollars are going into cantis as BB7s. And BB7s are pretty much the best brake for what they do, which I don't think anyone can say about any of the cantis sold on touring bikes for the hoi polloi.

In my case, I run BB7, Paul, or Pedersens, all of which are outstanding brakes.

I want the dark green one.

" It just seems like the spoke holder, even if not used, is of very little consequence, so I don't know why it bothers some people."

It bothers me because it has become emblematic of a touring bike, and I think it is a bad design. So it is symbolic in my mind. As you say, what is the harm. If it were + or - some number of bottle mounts or other, I would not have the same issue. But it might be more serious. So yeah, it's a little silly to care. I certainly don't expect others to feel the same way I do. But as a very occasional builder, I think long and hard about frame design, and it sorta irks me when a few recognizable, superficial features are all of a sudden the difference between a serious touring design and another. It should be 25 on the list of features, but it is more often say 5.

Here is my test. I'm 52, and I remember when equally good bikes to the LHT didn't have hardly any BOs. Back then racks, shifters, bottle mounts, etc... on hard core commercial bikes were clamped on. Lots of BOs was mostly a custom thing. So here is my poser vs non-poser test for a BO. Would you clamp one on? If your otherwise fabulous frame came without rack mounts, or light mounts people would P-clip/clamp them on. I have yet to ever see that done with spokes. I am not talking about taping them on the frame, or zip tying them. Where is the clamp on fitting? In fact a clamp-on might even be better since it would be very adjustable and could even be moved left right if required. I think it is largely a cosmetic thing so it thrills when it is OEM but otherwise there is no clamor.

The LHT spoke holder holds 3 spokes. The DT requires 4 different spoke lengths for the 2 disc wheels. Either mount a spoke holder that works, or leave it off and knock a few bucks off the cost of the frameset, passing the savings along to the customer.

Fixing any braze-on to the frame compromises the tube strength in the heat-affected area to some extent. To do this for a gizmo that's mostly a marketing device is just a bad idea. Also, looks matter. A nice clean frame looks better to most people than one cluttered with gizmos and decals.

Even if the spoke holder held 4 appropriately sized spokes, it doesn't make much sense. You're far more likely to need a replacement inner tube, tire, derailleur cable, or disc brake pads than a spoke, provided your wheels were well designed and built properly. Where's the inner tube holder for my DT? Makes more sense than a spoke holder. How about a paper towel holder and soap dispenser? Now that would actually be useful...

I have several times, but a combination of having the wheels sorted out and carrying lighter loads has eliminated the problem.

It seemed to be the second most common problem for the riders we met on the Trans America, second only to flat tires. All were rear spokes and most were drive side.

Do you recall if one size wheel spoke failures were more prevelent than the other? I.E. 700 vs 26". Right or wrong I assume 26" wheels to be more robust spokewise than 700s.

Awesome to see Surly introducing a reasonably-priced tourer with discs. I have a 2008 Novara Randonneur which is OK but I like the Trucker's comfier frame geometry & lower gears...now with discs I'm ready to make the jump. Nice that Surly offers both frame & complete bike. Components on the complete bike seem pretty good although I priced things with the Disc Trucker frame + my selection of separate-order components & the price was very close. Sure wish the Disc Trucker offered the S & S coupler option though. I've thought about a Habanero titanium custom but w/couplers that means $1,000 more than a Disc Trucker complete (with Bilenky-installed S & S couplers).

Disc Trucker supposedly is Rohloff-ready, that's nice. One nice surprise is that the Disc Trucker price is barely more than the standard LHT. Talked to a couple local LBS today: one quoted $1600 for complete, the other said $1375 (vs std LHT @ $1275). Frame-only Disc Trucker $470...IIRC the same price I was quoted last year for LHT standard frame.

Disc Trucker available in 559 wheel size with ample room for fat tires. LHT (even w/same tires) will have a comfier ride than Novara Randonee so I'm not sure I'll need wider tires but it's sure nice to have that option. Local roads/paths vary from smooth to punishing. I've long wondered why most production tourers limit tire width esp in light of many tourists moving to mountain bikes. Back in the 80's I bought a Specialized Rockhopper & put drop bars on: nice smooth ride but the handling wasn't quite right.