onbike 1939

I found that the largest sprocket on my XTR hub was too fragile for touring and this resulted it becoming distorted. XTR hubs are not intended for touring but are for competitive racing where lightness is at a premium. XT hubs were ideal but these are now made with smaller ball-bearings and there are reports of breakages. LX are now being recommended as a good alternative as they are rugged and still use the larger ball-bearings.

cyccommute 

Um...different beasties. A sprocket is on the cassette and may (or may not) be too fragile for touring. The XTR hub or, more specifically, the XTR freehub body works just fine for low gears (large sprockets). They are made for mountain bikes and most mountain bike riders, even the pros, use lower gears than road racers.

If you are really worried about bearings and breaking the hub, go with the Phils. Bearings are large and easily replaced. The axles in a Phil are legendary for their durability.

Lasse

I assume onbike 1939 's point is: XTR is not designed for highest durability, but for lightest weight, hence not suited for touring use. LX is.

cyccommute 

I've got XTR wheels on a couple of bikes and I have a titanium freehub on my White Industries hub. I also happen to have 3 or 4 rear XTR hubs that have been used. None of them have any issues whatsoever with durability. Again, a titanium cog may wear fast but a freehub body doesn't.

As for the overall durability of XTR stuff, it isn't delicate. It's made for being used hard and put away wet.

Lasse

I'm sure XTR is made for being used, but if LX has a steel axle and therefore space for bigger ball bearings than the XTR, there might be an advantage for LX hubs in this regard. It's the same problem with Hollowtech bottom brackets which don't last as long as cheap square taper ones which have more space for bigger ball bearings.
Your 4 hubs that have no issues don't tell us anything about the durability of XTR hubs in general. To estimate the actual durability we can only look at the design specifications and maybe some user statistics (as in returns etc)...

cyccommute 

Speaking of statistics, what statistics can you cite that says that LX hubs (or square taper bottom brackets) last longer than their higher priced cousins? How much longer, if they last longer? Most of the failures of XT hubs I've read about aren't related to bearings anyway. XTR hubs gets an almost perfect rating (4.76 out of 5) in MTBR.com. If you can pound the crap out of them on a mountain bike, touring is going to be a walk in the park.

Outboard bottom bracket bearings aren't any smaller than internal bearings nor, in my experience...again..., have they been any less durable. Quite frankly, I've never owned a sealed cassette style bottom bracket bearing of any kind that I've worn out. I've replaced lots of them with higher quality units or different technology but I've never had one actually quit working on me.

Lasse

According to "Leerboek wentellagers", SKF, 1985:
"In general, maximum load on a ball bearing is proportional to outer diameter of bearing times width of bearing (where width is measured in direction of axle)."

The outer diameter is determined by the hub shell and basically the same, right? So LX has an advantage here. I don't count my own positive experiences with tools as representative for the general quality of a product, but according to many bikeshop guys, who also happen to cycle around the world from time to time, (on the wereldfietser.nl forums, including people who build and sell touring frames/bikes for a living) say external BBs often last only about 10000km, square taper ones often last 50000km. Not my mini experience, but their expert experience. Most of the time they advise LX hubs and a BB-un54 in combination with Sugino XD cranks. Deore dérailleurs will get you around the world too. When you're not racing, there's no point in paying lots of money to get the latest ultra light race tech although it can of course feel very nice to be riding with extra bling

I just checked some recent Shimano techdocs and apparantly there are XTR rear hub models with smaller bearings (3/16") and other models with bearings the same size as LX (1/4"), so this is making a general comparison LX vs XTR more difficult... Same with XT apparently. (higher model numbers, smaller bearings)

Using mountainbiking as a test isn't appropriate for touring bikes imo, the use is very different. Distances on an MTB are much shorter, touring bikes are constantly heavily loaded while MTBs get more short hard shocks and cleaning/maintenance of an MTB is usually much more frequent. Replacing parts on a mountainbike when they're worn out is also less crucial at home than when you're touring through Mongolia or the amazon rainforest.

In the end, I'm sure you'll be happy with either hub. The question is how far you want to optimise your ride for touring use and how much money you really want to spend. And of course, if you're only touring in the US or Europe you can probably get your bike fixed in any of the many big cities, making mileage before worn less crucial.

cyccommute 

You are combining two subjects into a mishmash that is rather confusing. Let's limit the discussion to hubs, shall we? If you look at my first post, I say that I don't think the current model of XTR hubs is the best choice for touring for a couple of reasons. I don't think that durability is one of them. Do you have any evidence that there is wide spread bearing failure on XTR? Do you have any evidence of XTR being less durable than LX? Or is this just a case of reverse snobbishness? I've run across that in lots of places: "I wouldn't use XTR because it's too expensive!" Yes, it's expensive but it's not less durable because it's expensive. There's been scattered reports of problems with XT but, as I pointed out, those are issues with the freehub and most of the reports are 3 years old.

As for taking advice from tourists on what parts to use, many of them are rather retrogrouchy (I can be that way but I'm more of a neo-retrogrouch). Some of them, I'm sure, would suggest using an ordinary because it's old proven technology.

You do realize that the LX hub is a mountain bike hub, don't you? Proven tough and durable through years of off-road punishment...just like XT and XTR stuff. Yes, the touring and mountain biking are very different but touring is rather gentle on parts and doesn't require standing up to the kind of pounding that mountain bikes have to endure. I doubt that cleaning and maintenance is that much different from one aspect of cycling to another.

And, again, the LX hub is a mountain bike part so if you are going to have problems finding parts in remote places, you still have problems with the LX hubs. But, if I were to go off into a remote area, I'd pick a different set of wheels to begin with...like the Phils. Bearings are easier to replace and probably more readily available. The same would be true of headset (King) and cranks (external King or Wood bearings) .

djb

interesting reading about your diff takes on these parts, but one thing I can reasonably comment on is how mtn bike hubs seem to have really really improved on stopping water, dirt etc getting into the bearing area. I recently took apart and serviced the hubs on my old Rockhopper. These wheels were replacements for the originals not long before I bought the bike from my brother-in-law, which makes them maybe 8 or 9 years old. I've ridden this bike fairly regularly, not a ton of mileage(and not crossing rivers or riding in deep mud) but in all those years I never opened the hubs, and they always felt good with the "fingers test" of moving the axels around.

What really impressed me when I did take them apart was how well designed the seals were, and sure enough, the grease was still very clean and abundant, and the surfaces looked quite good.

It would seem to me that while bearing size etc is one thing, how well stuff is kept away from the innards is also a big factor in the longevity of a part.

thoughts on how this aspect of the diff hubs you guys are discussing is diff from one to another? Have any of you taken them apart to see the diff in seal qualities and/or design to stop stuff getting in?

cyccommute 

If you want to stop crud from getting into the bearings, go with a cartridge bearing like the Phil Wood or White Industries. Even if you get crud infiltration, you just replace the cartridge. In the Phil's replacement is simple and can be done with minimal tools...not that I'd expect to be replacing them until about the 3rd time around the world.

Lasse

The design on the Shimano hubs is very simple: seal rings keep (most of) the dirt and water out.
You can check out some exploded views of their hubs at https://techdocs.shimano.com . I'm surprised to see the XTR FH-M970 only has one seal ring (non drive side), while the LX FH-M580 has three seal rings (left & right hand seal rings and a 'sub unit rubber seal'). Does the XTR hub compensate this somehow or does it need more maintenance?

antokelly

cyccommute who in america would build that wheel for me.

djb

those are neat to see the parts. As you say, you can easily see the various seals and such. Going from my experience over the years with taking apart mostly low to upper mid range hubs, I'd go with more seals any day of the week. My Rockhopper hub story as back up for that.

that said, the roller bearing type hubs must be great..but they are more expensive, but would be worth it in the long run Im sure.

interesting with teh shimano docs, some of the hubs have the bearings in those cage things to keep them all together, certainly easier to take apart and to keep track of (like old style headsets)

cyccommute 

I don't really know. I don't use wheel building services so I'm not up on builders. This would be a good time to learn to build your own I learned how with this somewhat dated series of articles. Read part 1 for the history and read parts 2 and 3 for the building. I can't even remember what's in part 4. The technology has changed but the principles of wheel building are the same.

Doug64

Based on the fact that I just serviced the LX hubs on my wife's commuter bike, and the XT hubs on my touring bike this month; I think the XT hubs have more efficient seals. This is also based on the experience I've had servicing both the LX and the XT hubs several times. Purely anecdotal, but I do learn from my experience.

13-3/16" bearings or 9-1/4"- Is this important?

I just completed a fully loaded 2900 mile tour which included over 400 miles of unpaved dirt and gravel roads and trails, And over 500 miles of cobble stone and paver block roads and trails. I really never gave a thought to whether my XT rear hub had 9 big bearings or 13 smaller ones. The hubs did just fine. When I cleaned the hubs earlier this month, the grease was still clean and doing its job. That was in spite of riding 35 days in the rain, some of it on those dirt roads. However, I was a little anxious about the aluminum axle. I won't be concerned about it on my next tour.
I also use XT cassettes on our touring bikes, our commuter bikes and on my cyclocross bike. No issues with cog wear or free hubs. I know it is not statistically valid, but I'll continue to use them.

djb

thats the sort of account thats good to hear, especially with all the rain riding you two had.
what sort of bearing grease do you use?
I have a mostly finished tube of Phils, and an older partially full tube of Bull Shot (red stuff) that doesnt seem as thick as the Phils---I imagine this is like asking what sort of chain lube is your preference, you'll get a diff answer for every person....I switched to Phils as I felt the thicker the better, who knows.
I tend to really cram a lot in, and invariably a whole bunch ****ers out with time, so Im probably overdoing it, but as far as I can tell, there is no downside to too much, and the tubes last for ages anyway so its not expensive.

Doug64

djb,

I follow your procedure almost exactly: liberal application of Phil Wood grease. I also subscribe to the premise that more is better than not enough where bearing grease is concerned.

onbike 1939

I can confirm that I was advocating the LX hub over the XT or XTR as being more suitable for touring and can just about differentiate a sprocket from a hub. This is just as well as for a number of years I worked as a mech for a Bike Charity and still run courses in Bike mechanics for them.
I've toured for almost forty years and always with heavy camping loads. Every year I clocked up in excess of three thousand miles in July and August cycle-camping in France so do feel qualified to express an opinion. XT was always the hub of choice for touring for many years but the new design with smaller ball-bearings has met with many reports of breakages in this country. LX is now advocated as a replacement given that it has retained the larger ball-bearings and kept its rep as being very durable.
I agree that outboard bearings have a shorter life than their square-taper counterparts. I've changed many of these with too few miles on them though I suspect that this may be partly due to the BB shell not being faced before the bearings were fitted as well as the increased vulnerability to muck and spray given their position. Whatever the reason I confess that I still prefer the more robust square-taper when push comes to shove.

imi

I was having a chat with Martin, my friendly LBS wrench, about hubs, and apart from Phil Woods, he highly recommended Hope hubs.

The shop is somewhat roadie orientated, so I was wondering if any of you guys have the lowdown on 'em for touring?

Happy Xmas all!

antokelly

did he give you a good price on themthey sure look fantastic
happy christmas imi have a good one buddy

fietsbob

Hope UK, would be closer to Sweden Than Phil & Co in the US.

I'd find out if they will send parts around the globe promptly IF things go wrong.

I used Phil's Freewheel hub, so no experience with the inner workings
of their freehub.

cyccommute 

Hope has a good reputation for lots of high end mountain bike stuff (King and Wood are a little more common over on this side of the pond). The only concern that I would have about the Hope hubs is the aluminum freehub body. While I wouldn't worry too much about titanium, aluminum is a bit more delicate.

There's a video out there on servicing the hub that details how to remove and replace the bearings. It doesn't look difficult but is more involved than the Phil Wood hub service. My rear hub practically falls apart when I remove the end caps.