I guess it is an extremely insignificant for many folks.

That said... It is likely to become more of a factor if you are crossing multiple states (or countries) or if you are watching weight carried very closely. On a coast to coast tour, if you are carrying Adventure Cycling maps, and state maps and maybe some state or national park or forest maps it would be pretty easy to have over a pound of maps even without laminating them. So say a pound or more of maps possibly even two pounds in the more extreme case. For someone like me who strives to get the list below 15 pounds of gear a pound is a big deal.

Thanks for the clarification. That wouldn't suit my style very well but I can see that it makes sense for yours.

True for all smartphones and tablets but definitely NOT true for the transreflective displays on the purpose-built GPS devices. These are not backlit displays (although they have a not so useful backlight for viewing in the dark). In normal mode they require external illumination to see the display just like a paper map. And, just like a paper map, the brighter the sun, the easier these devices are to see. I need reading glasses also but these are just as easy to read as a paper map and I typically don't use my glasses if the surface I'm viewing is well illuminated. If I stop to use my smartphone, I have to dig out my glasses.

I get on the bike to ride it --not to stop at every intersection and dig out an iPhone to check where I'm supposed to turn. These GPS units just sit there on my handlebars showing a traveling display of exactly where I am. I pre-load the planned route to show it highlighted on the map and add two data boxes to my display ("current speed", and "distance to next turn"). I can predefine a dozen other pages if I want but I generally use two others. One shows total trip aggregates (total distance, aggregate moving average, total time on bike, etc, etc), the other shows current day stats (distances and speeds and elevations and vertical profiles, etc, etc). A simple button push toggles between pages (no squeeze pinching or other nonsense unsuited to riding). This replaces my bike computer.

I can be riding in a group and socializing when my GPS beeps and shows "left turn in 200ft". Or I can be riding alone and focusing on cadence or form and get the same useful reminders.

One thing I would use my smartphone for would be to locate others. This summer we plan to all load a geo-location app where we all sign up and trade user info. I should be able to pull out the smartphone and get a map showing where all my riding partners currently are (would also work great on a ski trip).

Some touchscreen GPS units have displays that are hard to read in any direct light at all.

I looked at a Garmin Oregon some years back thinking I rather liked the look of it but I found it very hard to read when it reflected the shop's fluorescent strip lighting and when I stood by the window so the sunlight hit it I couldn't read anything on it at all.

That said I understand the Oregon x50 units are better, and I can read my Montana's screen just fine in virtually any light.

Indoor light with some glare is actually the worst case for these (and I would consider this a pretty significant limitation on my aging GPSMap60Cx). But I don't plan to ride indoors ;-) You need to take it outside in real sunlight and hold it next to your smartphone. The difference is pretty significant.

It's strangely opposite of smartphone displays. Indoors, these GPS (transreflective / transflective) displays can be sort of dim and need to be moved around in your hand to get the right angle (newer ones are probably better than mine). Smartphones indoors are spectacular. Outdoors smartphones have to be shaded and angle-shifted to be visible in bright sunlight. These GPS devices outdoors are spectacular. Both have compromises. I just choose to use each where it is strongest.

Odd you should say that, I never had any trouble at all with my 60CSx.

In sunlight my smartphone is unreadable. An Oregon 300 was unreadable. A Montana 650 is readable.

Part of the confusion in this discussion may be because we have different concepts of what is meant by "touring". This is the touring forum, right? My idea of a typical tour is the poster who is thinking of traveling to Czech Republic (from the United States), where he has never been before, and travel around by bike. He may have plans for what route he wants to take, but those plans could easily change. This argues for having a big paper map (1:300,000 scale or so) to get an overview of the entire region and its network of roads and towns. Folded up and stored in a waterproof case (Aloksak or similar), that paper map might be all he needs. But that paper map will likely not show the detailed network of streets in towns. That street network is typically irregular in older European towns and very hard to navigate for first-time visitors. This is where something like the Nokia N8 comes in handy. Detailed streets maps for all towns available offline, with pinch-to-zoom and swipe-to-pan, so much easier
to use than a mapping GPS for getting around in town. The phone also offers a search capability. There are both offline and online database in the Nokia N8, but my experience is these don't show all the hotels in the area, and so would probably have to be supplemented with something else, like a Lonely Planet guide. The address from the guide can be searched for in the mapping app. Most outdoor GPS units don't have a good keyboard for this sort of thing. Obviously, the same phone used for locating the hotel on the map can then be used to call the hotel and make reservations. Phones must be protected from rain, but that shouldn't be a problem once you arrive at a town. Just get under a bus shelter or doorway. You'd have the same problem if using the the GPS for getting directions and then a non-smartphone for making phone calls. The phone would still need to be protected from rain.

If you have an unlimited budget (both money and weight), then this is less of a problem. Right now, given a choice between adding a mapping GPS, to allow better navigation on dirt roads that don't appear in the road atlas, or a 7" tablet, which would allow for much improved e-reading and wifi web browsing in motels compared to my Nokia N8, then the tablet is clearly going to be more useful to me. Those who don't have to make tradeoffs can bring everything: paper map, smartphone, mapping GPS, tablet. For me, and probably for most bike tourists (as opposed to people riding "sweep" or whatever in large groups on a day ride), the mapping GPS is the least useful of these 4 items.

As for the person whose smartphone is unreadable in sunlight, you have a lousy smartphone. There are smartphones (like my Nokia N8 and I'm sure plenty of others) which are just as readable in bright sunlight as indoors.

Revelo, all good points, but i am sure you wouldn't want to stick to the Ovi maps suggestions in Czech Republic all the time. They are lots of nice bike routes we would never know about if not the local paper maps. Ovi has no information of this kind at all. Plus i am still struggling on how to add additional "via" points to the routes suggested by Ovi, maybe you know how? It's always "the shortest" option there, which is often not what you need when touring.

And a tip for people with smartphones: there is some third party software for phones, like ViewRanger, that allows usage of predownloaded OpenStreetMap tiles. OSM has to my knowledge the most up to date information on bike routes among free online maps services like google, ovi, michelin, etc. And they do know plenty of points of interest like hotels, stores, bike shops, etc.

@miklahit: I have never attempted to "add via points" to the maps on my Nokia N8, nor was I even aware of such a feature, nor do I use the route finding option. The maps that came loaded with the N8 are enough for my purposes. I do use the search capability to check for stores and motels, but like I wrote above, the database is not that comprehensive. Primarily, I use the N8's map to supplement my 1:200,000 scale maps from the Benchmark atlas landscape maps (much better than the DeLorme maps for backcountry usage). In particular, the Benchmark maps do not show the street grid of towns and cities, but the N8 maps do. In the backcountry, the N8 tends to only show the more important dirt roads, whereas the Benchmark maps and the USGS quads (which I have on my laptop) show all dirt roads. Normally, I want to stay on the primary dirt roads, since these are the ones which go somewhere rather then coming to a dead end at a corral or mine, and these are the roads with a hard surface rather than being deep sand, so this is not a severe limitation for me.

I know there are huge number of apps for the iPhone and Android and more arriving each day which either provide offline maps (such as the OSM maps), or provide supplements to maps, such as excellent databases. This is why I would probably buy an iPhone or Android phone if I was buying now, or maybe I'd try a Nokia with Windows Phone. And this is why I think a quality smartphone is a much better investment for most bike tourists than an expensive mapping GPS, assuming you don't want to carry both.

I still don't understand these complaints about being unable to view phones in bright sunlight. I tested my N8 the other day in bright sun, and I used it numerous times on long tours in the desert, the sort of place where I have to keep my eyes half-closed due to the bright sun reflected off the sand, and my N8 was always fully readable (at least for 60 seconds, after that it dims and I have to click standby-unstandby to get the brightness back). I have a hard time believing no one but Nokia is making bright, high-contrast displays for smartphones.

The htc phone I have, which I believe is already "old", is a bit hard to read in full sunlight, must make shade with your body. Used it while skiing and white all around was hard for reflections.

Very goods points here on the pluses and minuses of phones vs true GPS units, can see the advantages of both.

I posted above that I tested my phone 4PM on a sunny day. Well, that was 3 days ago and it's been overcast since. Then today, the sky cleared for a while. At precisely 12:42PM, which is almost exactly noon (with daylight savings time), I pulled out my smartphone and my kindle e-reader to compare. Both devices are unreadable if I position them such that the sun reflects directly off the glass into my eyes. If I turn the devices slightly, like 5 degrees, just enough to move the sun off the edge, then the kindle becomes fully readable but the phone is hard to read (mostly I see fingerprints). Now if I turn the devices another 20 degrees or so, they are both fully readable and I am at a loss to say which is better, since they are different. The kindle with e-ink looks like paper, while the phone is brightly illuminated. If I then turn and put the devices into the shadow of my body, the kindle is clearly dimmer than before, though still fully readable, while the phone is even easier to read than before. A minute later, after my eyes have adjusted to the shadow, the kindle no longer looks dim while the phone is unchanged.

I'm a proponent for leaving the fancy computer driven stuff at home, and making do with paper maps, a sense of direction, and local guidance.

I've not yet bought into the 'smartphone' thing. I've been reading of their potential of dumbing us down. the internet is bad enough!

The more we look at our devices on tour, the less we experience the trip IMO. That even extends to the lowly cyclocomputer.

And thus, I am the type of cycletourist who likes to ...

-- spread out a large, general map of the target touring area before going on tour, and take an overview look at where I'd like to go.
-- acquire somewhat more detailed maps (road maps, tourist maps, or printouts from Google), have a look at them, and see what's possible in terms of roads.
-- select a limited number of map(s) which are somewhere in between really general and very specific to take with me on tour.
-- acquire more maps as I travel ... and sometimes I need to mail some home along the way.
-- spread out whatever maps I've got at the end of a day of cycling and make some plans as to where I want to go next ... over the next week, during the next day.
-- fold up an appropriate map and place it into my handlebar bag map case for me to refer to as I ride.


I have used Google maps, and I have three main issues with it:

1) I can't spread it out on the dining room table or a picnic table and get a good big-picture look at the route.
2) It shows me two types of roads: yellow or white. Most of the time yellow roads are paved and white roads are gravel ... but not always. And these yellow or white roads don't tell you anything else about the roads.
3) It's nowhere near as accurate as I'd like.


Now as for all these other electronic tools ... do they work throughout a variety of countries? If a person were to travel from Australia to Canada to France, would they still work? What about recharging the batteries as you travel through these countries? Do they offer you any method of printing a map?

I've used only maps so far while doing short weekend tours which are displayed in the top plastic sleeve of my handlebar bag. Lugging a map isn't a problem, you simply fold the map to display the section your wanting to ride on and stick in the map holder on the bag. I haven't used the GPS on the bike because the battery won't last long enough, about 1.5 hours if the display light is on bright which it would have to be using it with sunlight hitting the screen. I do carry a compass, but rarely use it. I've traveled for over 35 years this way and just never found a situation where I wish I could have had something like a GPS; in fact most people traveled by maps for far far longer then GPS's have been around. But having said that, if I can get a GPS with a longer life battery, I have a way to charge when camping, then I wouldn't boohoo it away either especially when I do the US tour because it could be useful to zoom in and out for more or less detail.

I either use MS Streets and Trips and print the page(s) in color so the roads I want to take are highlighted as are any places I may want to stop at. I just bought a Adventure Cycling map of the Northern Tier 9 but I haven't received it yet. If I like it I buy the the complete set and others so I'll have all the maps I need for my tour. And I did download their GPS files into my current GPS and their stored on my computer for any future GPS's I might get. But for right now with shorter trips paper maps are fine.

I'm sure none of what I said was of any help, sorry.

I think the best long-term solution for the batteries is chargin them on the go with "The Plug" or E-werk devices and the like.
You can always load a map as a pdf or png and look at it on the screen (with all those magnify and pan features) or print them out with a PC (say in a hostel) just like you'd normally do with a USB stick. You'd only need a cable to transfer the file.
Google maps are really not that appropriate for bicycle touring. I really recommend OSM, just look at the gpsies.com, they have several layers, that i find very convenient for planning a bike tour.
Good thing about the online maps is that you can always check how adequate they are from your home computer much in advance.

A good and large map though cannot be beaten for detailed route planning. If nothing else it's a lot of fun to put the map on the ground and look at it together with the tour partner.

Here's a collection I put together during a month of cycling around parts of Europe ... not really clear, sorry, and it seems to be missing my favourite little map of France, but this is the sort of thing I carry around with me on a tour.

http://www.machka.net/pbp2007/images/MapsEtc.JPG

From the last page of the story of that trip:
http://www.machka.net/pbp2007/2007_PBPTouringGear.htm

When I planned a route that was about 80 miles through areas I didn't really know all that well I used a combination of Google Maps and OpenStreetMap. I prepared a route using the OSM maps, then used Google Maps to zoom in on areas that I wanted to know a little more about. Some of the trails the OSM maps routed me down turned out to be little more than muddy tracks when examined using Google's Street View, so I tweaked the route a few times to avoid them.

Google Street View does have the limitations you describe where, for example, you can take a 1:25000 map and see the same level of detail over a huge area. That said you can see varying levels of detail without needing a big space. I guess something like that becomes a matter of preference.

The mobile electronic gadgets such as a GPS unit won't give you a means of printing a map. You can print a map from Google Maps but not something that would look like the big paper maps you buy that you can unfold until they take up as much floorspace as you want to give them. You can put all sorts of maps in them - when I'm in the UK I keep mine loaded with UK road maps, trail maps and Ordnance Survey maps and then when I travel to the US I just load up a map of the US.

Depending on the unit you can usually either power it with AA batteries or recharge it over USB. So you can charge it anywhere you've got mains. In theory there's no reason why you shouldn't recharge many units from a dynamo hub that provides a USB output so I imagine it's theoretically possible to cycle for hours while your GPS unit never loses any of its battery charge. Then when you stop you can turn it off. If I'm expecting to cycle for most of a day I'll make sure my GPS battery is charged and also take a spare battery, and for a ride that includes an overnight stop I'll also take a USB charger with me. (I appreciate that doesn't help much for rides based around camping or catching a couple of hours' sleep at the roadside.)

I must admit I do gain a degree of pleasure in looking at a big paper map and planning a route on it, but for when I'm actually in the saddle turning the pedals I like to have a moving map that shows where I am relative to my surroundings. If I can have a track log on it that shows where I want to go then so much the better.

An unlocked GSM phone will work in all the countries you mentioned as voice phone, which is always useful (assuming you buy the appropriate SIM with 100 minutes of usage for like $30 in both the US and all European countries, and I assume the same in Canada and Austrialia). Upgrade to a smartphone, and you now get the ability to check email and websites using either wifi or the phone network, a decent point-and-shoot camera (at least for landscape photos, not so good for zooming or low-light situations), plus a complete set of street maps for the country, at least with the Nokia N8. I've been hoping to get information from other users about the offline mapping capabilities of other phones in this thread, since the only phone I can vouch for is the N8 and that phone is obsolete at this point. The Nokia Lumia 900 probably has the same capabilities, but I'm not sure of its battery life or GPS reception capabilities, which are issues that have been raised by other posters. I read a review of the Lumia the other day and it mentioned that visibility in bright sunlight blows away the iPhone and most Android phones, so evidently there is something special about Nokia displays.

It is critical that the maps be offline. That is, loaded on the phone so you don't need a network connection to use them. You can't print the Nokia maps using the phone and I'm not sure why you'd want to print them. The printed maps you can buy are much better, in so many ways. The purpose of the online maps, in my opinion, is to supplement a big paper map, such as for the street grid of cities not shown on the big paper map. For example, you can always get a free paper map of the city at the tourist information office in France. But how to get from the edge of town the tourist information office? Usually, there are signs, but those signs might take you down a busy street and you'd prefer a quieter route. This is the sort of situation where having a detailed map on your phone is useful. Again, offline maps, not online maps, is what you want. Right now, only Nokia offers this out of the box. Again, I was hoping some other people who discuss this issue for other phones. Google allows caching, but this is unreliable according to reports I've read, since Android flushes the cache after 30 days and perhaps sooner if it runs low on space. The link I gave above discusses iPhone apps that allow offline mapping, emphasizing topo maps that are more useful for backpacking, as opposed to the street maps that are more useful for bike tourists.

As for batteries, if you don't use the maps on the phone or GPS constantly, but rather rely on the paper map most of the time, the device should stay charged at least a week. You can then recharge at a hotel or campground (they usually have electrical outlets in the bathroom at campgrounds) or internet point. I am not a fan of these hub chargers for electronics, since they add a lot of complexity and expense and are quite delicate. Hub chargers for lights are a different story, since these are not nearly so delicate. Also, the power requirements of lights are much greater, so that a hub charger really is useful if you bike a lot at night. A much simpler solution for electronics is external batteries. You can buy 5000 mAh external batteries on Amazon for like $50. That is the equivalent of 4 charges of a typical smartphone. So by bringing such a battery along, you should extend time between charging to several weeks. Note that not all of these batteries work for all phones, since some phone demand a higher charging amperage than the battery can deliver. For example, some batteries that work for the iPhone will not work for my Nokia N8.

I'm not so sure I would want to hang around a bathroom for several hours waiting for a device to charge, I might get arrested for being pervert! but I understand what your saying.

My question is more toward hub chargers or hub generators. I understand there are hub generators on the market that serve a dual purpose, to run lights at night and to recharge stuff during the day, is that the hubs you're referring to be as fragile? If so, what makes these hubs fragile? and is there anyway to beef them up to be more reliable?

I'm not too keen on carrying heavy external batteries around to have charged and ready to go for when stuff dies. However currently I have a small portable solar charger that works pretty good for charging the phone but the GPS takes more power and it doesn't charge it up well enough, plus the GPS goes through a charge fast so I couldn't keep it running while riding more then 1 1/2 hours with the display on bright. Plus the solar takes all day to charge the phone if it's sunny out, which is OK because I don't use the phone much anyway so on short touring rides, which currently is all I do, it just needs a partial charge.

The hot setup as of this writing seems to be the Schmidt SON hub dynamo coupled with a Pedalpower device charger. Links here:
http://www.blayleys.com/articles/lights/index.htm
http://www.pedalpower.com.au/index.html

Schmidt SON hubs are frequently used with Schmidt Edelux or B&M Lumotec IQ Fly lights.

These hubs have been proven for many years, are used by many randonneurs in all weathers, on singles, tandems, MTBs, and on PBP.

The hubs aren't fragile. On the contrary, the SON hub that the other poster mentioned is extremely reliable. You may have a problem after about 30,000 miles, when it comes time to service the hub internally, because only factory service shops can do that. But until then, the hub should be rock-solid and the wires coming out (6 or 12 volts, I forget which) and the lights they feed into are also reliable, even if they get wet. Of course, you have to get a wheel built around this hub... Where problems occur is with the device that convert the hub voltage into USB voltage needed for electronics. State of the art is the E-Werk contraption: http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/ewerk.asp

External batteries are not heavy. For example, the Trent 5000mAh battery weighs 4.6 ounces according to the Amazon specs and fully charges an iPhone 3 times. This is much less than what the SON hub + E-Werk contraption weighs, and much easier than the hub to replace in case of problems and much less expensive.

Solar chargers are worthless compared to hub generators. If you really want to charge electronics while on the road, then get the hub generator and the E-Werk contraption or use external batteries. And turn off the GPS when you don't need it (which should be most of the time, how did cyclists in the past manage to get around without GPS's?).

BTW people hang out in bathrooms in French campgrounds all the time charging their cellphones. I agree, not the nicest place to hang out. More a last resort, if you are not staying in hotels. A better approach is an internet cafe, which is guaranteed to have plenty of electrical outlets. In the United States, ordinary restaurants often have outlets near the tables. I'm not sure if this is the case in France. If you are staying in hotels now and then, then obviously that is the place to charge electronics.

I noticed the Trent battery says nothing about being able to recharge a GPS, though I would think it should. Solar chargers are getting much better then the one that I got currently. I found a solar charger that has a built in rechargeable 5600 mah, the system can either charge a handheld device either directly from the sun, or from the built in battery should there be no sun. Here's more on it: http://www.amazon.com/Capacity-Li-Po...4566433&sr=1-4 The one I have now only puts out 1200mah, but I got it about 4 years ago so now it's outdated, but it worked good enough for a cell phone.

I have no idea what the average cycle-tourist is, and I have a feeling the need for a dedicated GPS or a Smart phone or both in combination, or for that matter just some paper maps or all three in combination boils down to how you define average cycle-tourist. I love reading of others Trans America tours and people navigating thru north and South America on long extended tours or crossing Europe and Asia. But I have a feeling for a lot of people cycle touring is a much more modest adventure. Maybe not due to abilities or equipment but just due time and family needs.

I will be the first to agree about the dumbing down of society and quite a few people blame it on computers and devices they see everyone focused on constantly. They are just devices (tools) and it’s how we use them that make them what they are. If you want to put your finger on the pulse of our culture go it the app store and see what the top 100 apps are. There are also a lot of really practical uses for these things they are just not in the top 100. If you go by what most people want its Angry Birds I guess.

For me a few days of touring is the norm at a given time and a week or two is a special event. I don’t have the luxury of traveling to the start point of a tour etc. So most start and ends at my home or a drive to location that will begin and end the tour.

It’s still important to know where I’m going and to stay connected with the world and for me things like my iPhone actually make doing this possible as for me staying off the grid of life and work for long periods of time wouldn’t work.

Like any new toy I was fascinated with the mapping stuff when I first got on the bike with it. I next realized the shortcomings of battery life when watching my progress inch by inch. I realized I didn’t really need full time navigation aids with a little preplanning and a crib sheet. It’s not too hard to stop and wake the phone up for a few seconds to answer a direction question. I also figured out that with a case that doubled my battery life and a remote charging device that was good for 3 or 4 charges off of NMH or alkaline batteries and the ability of the same device to recharge it all when AC became available there wasn’t an issue of weight or battery life if I used the phone all I wanted but also smartly on my length of tours.

I don’t know about other smart phones but the iPhone is designed to be very sensitive to how it charges off of USB and the newer phones each generation are more critical that the ones before. It only takes two of the four connections in the USB to supply power but the iPhone does things on the other two in order to make sure the charging is being done properly. They are sensitive to voltage changes and you need to process the USB voltage thru a device that outputs what the iPhone needs to see or it will give you errors and not charge. I built my own using 8 AA to supply a 12 v supply and I then ran it thru an apple approved car charger to convert it to a workable USB supply. This worked great on my 3G phone but had issues on my i4 when the voltage would slip below 10v. Things like the Tekkeon unit do this much better than what I designed and do it with half the batteries. I don’t know a lot about hub generators and USB but I would make sure they are of the level of USB the iPhone requires before tapping into them. If not and you like the hub then use it to charge batteries and use them to charge the phone thru an approved device.

I don't start from a remote location either when I tour, and so far all my tours have been just weekend jaunts. I'm still trying to figure out this charging stuff but I seem to be leaning more towards a higher capacity solar unit. I have a friend who tours across America a lot, and he has a panel solar charger and he simply lays it open on top of his trunk rack bungee corded so it won't fly off when riding, and it charges his laptop that's in his pannier while he rides. Pretty cool set up. He claims he's never had to plug the laptop in to charge it while touring and he'll be gone for months at a time. That's why I like the Solar idea in case some were wondering why I keep bringing that up. And as time goes by more and more higher capacity solar chargers are coming onto the market, so by the time I go on my first long tour there should be some really good ones on the market if not already on the market.

Finally posting a pic of the GPS unit on the handlebars of my superlight (this was a light tour). It just sits there all day and shows route and trip stats. I use AA batteries, so no charging issues ever and ~2 days per set. And I would again point out that speculating/criticizing how comparatively visible these things are in direct sunlight by looking at smartphones and Kindles is kind of silly. The transflective display is unlike either and is perfect on a bike bar, IMHO. Ive been using them for 10 yrs.

I carry paper maps for backup but never need them. This is just too simple and too convenient (once you figure out your method for loading trip waypoints and routes).

[I have a geography undergrad degree and specialized in cartography so paper maps are my serious friends. I also currently review and configure smartphones for a living, so they are also very familiar to me.]
http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=245907

What brand is your GPS?