Touring on hardtail MTB vs Surly LHT frame?
 

Hi everybody,

I am contemplating going with a hardtail MTB bicycle for touring. The idea being that a suspension fork would be easier on the hands, elbows and back than a hard fork. I'd really wish to be able to tour on gravel roads, alongside rivers and canals. I find it more fun than asphalt, that will still be a major part of the road I'll ride (will obviously depend where I go!). The idea is to do short tours, 1 to 3 weeks, in France and neighboring countries (would include some eastern europe countries also). I live in France.

I do randonneuring (and commuting), and find it frustrating not to be able to stop at the end of the day and go further. Touring seems exhilarating and I can't wait to leave (would love to go next month, but might be in 2 months, depends on when the insurance gives me the money for my last bike that got crashed by a car... have no job anymore, anyway).

I did about 80km straight of gravel road a couple weeks ago on a good old fully rigid steel Marin MTB, and my left elbow didn't thank me for that (it still hurts!). My bike is a tad too wide for me, so that might have not helped, I think, but... I have bar ends on the straight bars, I ride on them whenever I can (feels better) and riding on the straight bars would have been masochistic IMO.

Being on a budget, that would leave me with getting a new On-One Inbred frame (for 170€), an old used Marin frame a size shorter (same price, but they are beautiful frames, most of them made out of Tange chromoly...), or any other "budget" alternatives you may think (don't hesitate to suggest). They would be assembled with an old Magura Odur (damn expensive) or old Fox Vanilla fork. They would cost me 250€ max. Not that easy to find the good old ones (V-brake bosses and steel coil, not air). Would need to check if newer Inbred do accept V-brakes, and check their rackmount systems. Marin frames have sturdy rackmount eyelets.

For the same price, I could get a Surly LHT frameset, and that might be a better option than touring with a suspension fork... Or might not? I find the LHT damn pricey for a very "basic" frame, but at least it was designed to do touring and that is quite a merit.

These are the points that leave me hesitating:

- Suspension forks don't allow to use lowrider panniers, and putting the load higher would affect handling more. I'm very concerned about that. I'd use the Tubus swing to put the load on the "frame", as loading the moving mass (like with OMM racks) might actually drastically reduce the usefullness of the suspension! (And the Odur doesn't works with Tubus Swing, so that leaves me with the Fox Vanilla or the Fox Vanilla. No big deal, though, it's cheaper). So it all comes down to handling. Does a suspension fork with load on a Tubus Swing handles well? Better/worse than a rigid fork with lowriders? What about control? I like smooth and slow steering. Bars wobble and oscillation is my biggest fear - I once tried to haul 15 lbs of liquid degreaser on handlebars mounted panniers and couldn't ride it half a mile. Needed a lot of force to turn the bars left, then the inertia would try to throw it fully left, so you fight toward the right to put it back, then it runs full tilt right... Drove me mad).

- Even with rear rack mounts, MTBs might not be as well designed for loaded touring. My current Marin has an ultra stiff front triangle (triangular ovalized oversized chromoly... not compliant by any stretch of the mind!) but the rear triangle is rather supple, which makes sense for MTB use but scares me a little about control with an heavy load (tail wag?). Never tried loading it, though. Is the Inbred's rear triangle stiff enough? What the general experience on it? How using "setback" racks affects handling and stability? Tail wag scares me as much as bars wobble!

- Top tube length. My Marin definitely has a loong top tube, as do all (or most) Marins. Gary Fisher geometry. So does the Inbred. To fit me, I'll need a smaller bike. I'm contemplating using "cross" drop bars as I found I don't like horizontal positions - so butterfly bars might not be the best, as they offer only one "vertical" position. Drop bars offer 2/3, and as I would not use the drops on traditionnal drops (bad back), cross drops would offer me a so/so vertical position on the front curves, one on the hoods, and one on the drops, which sounds nice. So I'd need an even slightly smaller frame to compensate for the big virtual "stem" drop bars represent, and some steerer spacers to allow room for the drop bars and put them to the desired height (which is level with saddle) without interferring with the top tube.

Gary fisher geometries (Marin, Inbred...) use very slack tube angles meant to be used with short stems for nimbler handling (as 68/70° top tube is damn slack). Marin use the same geometry, but longer stems. Strangely, it still feels very responsive - more than I'd actually like on tour. Might have to do with the high rake forks that might reduce the overal trail to a low one, hence reactive handling. So might be tamed with a suspension fork, which probably will have less rake, hence higher trail for the same frame. The geometry of drop handlebars (or, don't discard them too fast, butterfly bars) equate to long stems, even with short stems, so I'm wondering how the steering would react. What is your experience of drop, cross and butterfly bars on Gary Fisher type geometries?

Thank you,
Nicolas

You can tour on any bike.

Have fun with your tour.

Take many photos.

Nicolas, You can tour on anything. I used my hardtail for my first short tours and it did very well with a rear rack and dual pattern tires meant for hard pack riding. The bar ends really helped reduce hand fatigue. The fork's dampening is fairly stiff to deal with 2-3 foot drop offs and that may've been a positive factor. You maybe able to find an out dated, but still perfectly functional suspension fork to install on your current bicycle.

If your handle bars are too wide, try cutting off 2.5 cm on each side.

Brad

+1, people are on tour on all sorts of bikes all summer , passing thru here..

Just have resources available to fix stuff along the way.

My touring bike is a hardtail mtb, rigid fork. Works great. Six or so tours so far, many thousands of miles, fully loaded, asphalt as well as a couple of hundred miles of gravel/dirt. If you do go with a sprung front fork hopefully it has a lockout feature, for the times where rigid would serve you better. Regarding the low rider thing, as long as you can mount the front panniers back far enough that the center of mass is near the steering axis, you should be good, even if you can't get them as low as you'd like. If the center of mass is too far forward you run into steering trouble.

Thanks for the advice.

About touring with my actual bike, well, I'll be building a new bike anyway, as my old Marin is my "beater": the wheels are so-so at best, gearing is a bunch of 12 years old SRAM 5, Victoria tires only roll well when inflated to hell, it needs a new seatpost etc... It rides, but I wouldn't really rely on it, much less loaded and long distance. And as I find it a size too large, I'd better rebuild a new bike, would it be on the exact same frame just a size smaller. An Inbred or used Marin is between 100€ and 175€, which is not much compared to the racks, panniers and camping gear - and I think the correct size frame is important. Will just keep my saddle :).

I don't doubt any bike can be used for touring per se, i'll try reformulating my questions without drowning them in text:

- How does suspension fork affect steering given you can't have low rider panniers, and that It'd be put (anyway) on 68-70° tube angles? How would it compare to the handling of a Surly LHT with its rigid fork, and load placed low? I'm looking at less responsive than my actual Marin .

- Is there a definite advantage to the Surly LHT as far as rear triangle stiffness vs an Inbred or Marin steel hardtail MTB? (and is the 425mm chainstay lenghts enough, given the LHT is 460, re. heel clearance?).

- Who did fit drops on an Inbred or similar bike and what is your opinion re. installation and handling?

I might have better put it this way first rather than the other way around xD

Bradtx, could you explain more what you liked about having a suspension fork, and what you didn't like?

Thanks,
Nicolas

Thank you very much !!!:). It's true I was thinking about panniers' height, but not front/back adjustment, and that it could actually have more influence! I'll look at how the Tubus Swing carries load.

As for the sprung fork, yes, a lockout is mandatory - I was looking at outdated 85/100mm forks, with lockout. I tend to think that the 50 miles of gravel hurt more because of lousy fit than technology. Was just considering having both to have more freedom re. roads I take. How does a loaded rigid MTB handles over gravel vs an unladen MTB? Does the weight smoothens or makes the ride harsher?

I personally don't like riding a loaded bike over rough gravel. I find it too jarring, and especially on steep climbs it's tough to maintain traction when you're bouncing over rocks and such at the same time. And it does things like turning vitamin or medical pills into powder, more wear and tear on all your gear which absorbs that constant jarring. But I know others prefer it, I guess it just depends on what you like.

As far as the handlebars, I used to ride with straight bars, then later added bar ends (which was an improvement), but now have switched to trekking bars with two layers of thick tape, which I find to be far superior to the other two options. Lots more possible hand positions, no more numbness. I don't prefer drops on touring bikes, although I do like them on my road bike.

ETA: Chainstay length on my mtb is about 425, which is fine as long as the front edge of my rear panniers are mounted no further forward than the axle (size 10.5/44 shoes). This puts the center of mass of the rear load behind the axle, which lightens the front end a little, but only by 4 or 5 pounds so it's easy to compensate by moving a little more weight to the front if needed.

As you already noted, chainstay length is an issue. I go to the grocery store on a 1990s vintage MTB and my heel clearance with grocery store panniers is terrible.

I have toured with a friend that uses his mountain bike. He is quite happy with that bike for touring but his panniers had permanently installed hooks to attach to the rack, he had to remove the rivets and move the hooks to get the heel clearance he needed.

I tried three times to attach a photo, but the web site was not cooperating.

:roflmao2:
Asphalt is nice, but where there is asphalt, there are cars. Towpaths are wonderful, but jarring. I never tried riding on gravel with a loaded bike. Do you have an idea why a loaded bike over gravel is more jarring than an unladen one? Does a suspension fork really helps then?

I never tried the trekking bars. I don't like traditional drops (I'm not supple enough to dive down on the drops...) but I have bar ends on my bike too and wouldn't ride without them. In fact, I came to hate the position I have when I am in the straight bars as it tends to "lock" my elbows and wrists. On the bar ends, they bend way more easily, and it makes the ride much more comfortable. So I thought I might look into handlebars that allow several hand positions more or less "parallel" to the top tube. Cross drops seem to offer this, on the side of the top, on the hoods, and on the drops which seem shallow enough. While trekking bars offer "perpendicular" up and down positions, and one lateral "parallel" position. Though using the corners, or gripping them in different places, might help, I don't know. I'll fit a trekking bar on my Marin to check it out, it's not an expensive experiment, nor is it long to do.

Thanks. Are you trying to upload to imageshack or flickr? It interests me. The Inbred has 425mm chainstays and the Surly has 460mm. Thats 35mm which is not enormous per se... But might of course make the difference between touching and not touching!

I tried loading the photo again. No luck. Tried loading it to this web site, not another photo sharing site. The photo was my friends mountain bike with panniers. I have loaded photos to this site before, not sure why it is not working now.

Some racks allow for more heel clearance than others. If you have not bought a rack yet, look for one that claims to allow more heel clearance. For example, the Tubus Logo claims to have better heel clearance.

Sus Forks absorb big hits, but road buzz is more likely lessened
by the fatter tires

if lower pressures are used, but that increases rolling resistance.
so it's all a bunch of tradeoffs.


racks : Tubus Swing is a front pannier rack that fits Some
suspension forks, load carried high and not on the lower slider
so the less-paved won't shake the load so much..

http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...rontour154.jpg

Something like this? The front rack was a Delta Shock Treatment rack. I no longer have the bike. It was a Trek 4300

This is what I am riding now, an 87 Miyata Trail Runner.
http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m...t/GEDC0402.jpg

"Bradtx, could you explain more what you liked about having a suspension fork, and what you didn't like?"

Nicolas, My suspension fork is dialed in to cope with how I ride off road and is fairly stiff. Because of it's tailored dampening and spring rate it took the edge off of long rides along dirt roads and didn't negatively effect pedaling efficiency on smooth surfaces, at least to the point where I noticed. I suppose the negative side is that it's more complex and heavier than a rigid fork. Also if the fork isn't properly set up it's either no better than a rigid fork or too bouncy when pedaling.

My sister and I are planning an off road day trip and for that I'll leave my touring bike at home and will take..
..http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=258107

another bar to consider is a simple riser bar, with a setback of degrees so that the hand positions are not straight. I've put these on my mtn bike and am very happy with the position and comfort due to the combo of stem length, bar rise and grip setback angle (or whatever it is called)

That's what I have on my Xootr Swift, but it is not multi position. Thanks anyway!

Ok so I had a better look at how racks carry load.

The Tubus Swing is anchored on the crown of the fork. So the load is suspended, which is good, but the most important is that it just equates to a heavier rider, but the lower part of the fork is still as light, so the suspension still works as advised (provided you choose stronger springs, yep). The idea of a suspension being that the upper (you) doesn't move while the bottom (the wheel) is free to move.

But the Tubus Swing carries its load rather high and, mostly, in front of the wheel, not at all centered over the steering axis, much less the axis of the wheel. Some seem to have been able to tilt the assembly enough so that with panniers having a deep height, the bottom could become more centered over the wheel's axis.

Other racks, such as the Old Man Mountain or other ones, mount on the v-brake bosses which allows to center the load pretty wheel over the wheel axis. Low and centerd = nice. But it also means the load is on the unsuspended part. Good thing is you don't need stronger springs. Bad thing is that the fork doesn't rolls over obstacles nearly as well, I would think it would still work over rather big shocks but for smaller ones, it might be as effective as a rigid fork... And it is the small ones I want to tame, for gravel/bad roads, not real mountain biking. Though, it might still take the edge out of it, I don't know. Arf.

One rack has it all right: mounted on the crown, has rails going to the lower part of the fork with the rack sliding in, that allows low and rearward placement of load... That is the Faiv Hoogar. Wonderful piece. Prices that hurt! 275$ !!!!!

As for big tires, I'm not that much convinced by Big Apples - that I have on my 20" bike. Of course big tires are more comfortable than skinny ones - I never owned a bike with skinny tires. But would they be Schwalbe Marathon, Big Apple, Victoria Randonneur or Dutch Perfect NoFlat, I didn't noticed that much of a difference (the Dutch Perfect having the edge in susp and efficiency, but having a so-so lateral purchase - and damn heavy weight). The Big Apple bottom out too easily and are not efficient if not inflated to the higher PSI range... And then, they become as hard as any other tire, IMO.

I might as well go with an (used) Bob Yak trailer or an extrawheel... Or with an hard fork (and probably choose an LHT then).

Wouldn't bother with a suspension fork unless you are riding on terrain that requires a suspension fork, such as rough singletrack. In that case, I'd go with a bikepacker setup (frame bag, handlebar bag, maybe rear rack). Otherwise, a rigid fork on a hardtail with high volume tires works great. A suspension fork is heavy unless you spend serious bucks, and won't do much for smoothing out the ride compared to better tires. Here is my offroad setup, which is well balanced and provides all-day comfort:

http://i1082.photobucket.com/albums/...ss/photow9.jpg

Well, there are people renting bikes equipped with big apples, guess I should rent one for a day and check these tires on bigger wheels - I was unimpressed by the 20" version's stiffness. But it's a 20" wheel... 26" makes for a lot more volume.

For offroad, 40 psi is the magic number with the 26x2.35 BAs unloaded, 42 psi with a load. Up to 50 psi is OK if riding on the road. Just be careful of going too high with a narrower rim.

Will give this solution a serious look as it seems that a suspension fork might not do much for small bumps anyway - serious road buzz, in fact - under consequent load, which is what I really want to cure, to ride all kind of country paths and badly maintained towpaths but not mountain single trails.

Though it would be lying to say that I'm not seriously considering a Bob yak, which can be had used for a very decent price (half that of a rack+panniers setup, in fact...) and might allow a more relaxed handling over all kind of roads.

Thank you very much for these numbers, I'll try them as soon as I can!

Planning on heading down to India and tour from point A to point B, packed lighweight, for about 2500km, with a daily distance of 50-60km.

Don't have any bike at the moment, and not in the budget for this trip to get a touring bike or any decent new bike and to fly with it.
So was looking down for options of buying a non-touring bike (as seems to be there are none) once there and doing the possible/necessary modifications for the ride.

Would the bike in the link below do it? The shop also has Trek 4300 and others, but would prefer not to have a suspension fork. Also any tips of getting a suitable bike from the location are welcomed.

http://www.firefoxbikes.com/Trek_71FX.html

Thank you.

Ok so I had an answer from On-One. Beware as I couldn't find this info on the internet before!!!
- New (2012) Inbreds don't offer V-brake mounting options anymore. Niet. Nada.
- On-One admits some problems using Avid BB7. Which is a pain, as BB7 road would have allowed me to use standard brifters. Plus BB7 are a good and reliable beast. I read on the internet that going to larger discs might allow to stuff a BB7 in it. I don't really like that "might".
- The Kaffenback is quite a look-alike with steeper geometry... But 700c wheels which I don't favor.

Plus nothing really heps setting in as a tourer. No wonders the Surly LHT remains a favorite.

I think I'll go with a Bob yak trailer first. My bike might be ill suited and wheels guaranteed to die if fitted with heavy panniers, but it should cope with a trailer, and at least, I'll go... For under 300$. Newer bike might wait.

Fixed it. :D