Let's Talk Titanium
 

While I'm starting to put my rigid 26 inch flat bar do it all bike to some touring use, eventually I am going to buy a versatile drop bar bike as well. It needs to be capable of all road conditions from perfect to gravel/dirt on occasion. It needs to be capable of touring, but I'd also like it to feel peppy and fast when unloaded. For personal preferences I am a fan of integrated shifting and dics brakes.

A part of me still thinks that the best bag for the buck is something from Bikes Direct or Nashbar. Redline makes a Cro-Mo disc brake, tiagra shifted Metro classic that stands out at only $1100. On the other hand I live in a world where Harley's, Boats, RVs, and even cars can be toys. A part of me thinks I should stop being so damn cheap and buy a nice bicycle if that is what I really want. And after riding a while and owning several bicyles I feel like I do know what I want and can buy or build a bike that I will apreciate for a long, long time.

I've looked at many different steel (and some aluminum) options from high end to buget minded. But the one area that seems to be a bit unexplored is the world of Titantium. An obvious option in that realm is the Salsa Vaya Ti, but I don't really want the bar ends. I'd also prefer and outboard bearing crankset (I've personally noticed some difference between OBB and Sqaure Taper). In general, to me it seems like the component specs just aren't up to the level of the Titanium frame. So I'd rather build one with carefully chosen pieces for maybe around $4000 than buy one that isn't quite perfect for me at $3000.

So that is the line of thinking I'm exploring right now. In the end I may cheap out and/or go with trusty steel, but for now I'd like to learn all I can about Titanium, expecially as it applies to bikes of a touring character.

Anyway, opinions Ti in general? On the Vaya Ti frameset? On other bikes/framesets that may be worth considering? On custom and semi-custom Ti builders? Anything else Ti?

I looked very long and very hard at Ti - both for a custom frame and an off the shelf build; and I still look with longing at the Ti Vaya, since I love my steel one so much.

I finally got to the point where I realized that the price of Ti was much too high for the negligible benefit it would provide in my type of riding vis-a-vis steel. Getting it would have been in large part a vanity move - once I grokked to that, it was off the table and I haven't looked back

I took a titanium welding class last weekend! Man, is that stuff a pain in the butt to work with! I now understand why the costs are so high...

Personally, I'd never buy a titanium touring bike. Too much money for too little benefit. Have to admit, I'm very happy with my Nashbar aluminum frame. This is notable because: 1) I absolutely hate aluminum road bike frames, and 2) the entire Nashbar frame cost less than any single component on my road or mountain bikes. Fat (700x35) touring tires tame aluminum's legendary harshness. I appreciate the rigidity of the frame and the fact that it's a bit lighter than most steel touring frames, but if I'm honest my PowerTap power meter suggests that an extra pound or three of weight doesn't make a difference anywhere other than fast uphill sprints...

I had a ti road bike and was underwhelmed. A ti touring bike would provide very little benifit over steel, IMO.

Just get a better steel touring bike from Gunner: http://gunnarbikes.com/site/bikes/grand-tour/

Id contact Bruce Gordon , and get a bike from him.. the Racks he builds
Chromoly tube, are rigid and light enough..
Mine have been reliable since I got them 25 years ago..

and his frames are also amongst the best in the world..
and of course the fit combination frame and racks,
is not adapted, they are made for each other.. in the same US shop.
in a 26" or 622/700c type

... +1 drop the Ti for touring , just not the best application..

it will be better used for a second bike to satisfy the need for speed..

Independent Fabrication will probably build you any sort of Ti bike you want, including one for touring--for a price.

There are lots of things I want to buy, but a titanium frame is not among them. Keep in mind that the cost for decent touring equipment adds up quickly. I'd go with a steel frame.

take a look at sps cycles in the uk they make there own TI touring frames and very nice they are and a great price for TI.

Check out Van Nickolas

Concur with the majority here. Stick to steel, especially if you want to do touring, gravel grinding and the like. If you're going to spend the money on a nice "all-arounder", go custom with nicer quality Reynolds 725 and/or True Temper Platinum OX steels. If you want to make it totally stand out (shine!) like Ti along with anticorrosive properties, you might want to consider stainless steel. R+E Cycles in Seattle will build stainless steel bikes. Here is one or this one. Should you decide to go Ti, they also have expertise with it. BTW, the bike you describe sounds so awfully close to my Rodríguez UTB they built for me just a few months ago. This bike in stainless steel (possibly with a few touches of color here and there) would kick some serious a*% from the coolness factor.

You should take a look at Lynskey frames if you're considering Ti. This is David Lynskey's company, the same guy who originally founded Litespeed, so he knows something about working with the materiel. Among their offerings they have both a touring specific frame (http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/st...s/touring.html) and commuter/cross frames (http://www.lynskeyperformance.com/st...ing-urban.html).

Their touring frame is only twenty-two times more expensive than my Nashbar frame!

I think we might have to revoke your "Capt_Sensible" username after this suggestion :D

Although I don't own any, I think titanium might be the best all-around material for bicycle frames. Assuming it's properly put together in the first place, it will likely outlast all other materials. It doesn't have paint to chip or scratch (and doesn't need any to begin with) and it's more resistant to dents from drops and crashes than other materials. It also has very good ride qualities.

Now, is it twenty-two times better than other frames? Of course not. But if you want to buy one more frame in your lifetime, titanium is a good way to go.

Ha, fair enough. But only I need to be sensible to keep the name. And I feel it's my duty to encourage irresponsibility in others, particularly when it comes to spending extravagant sums on sexy bikes.

I have been touring on a Ti Bruce Gordon RNR since 1989. It has combined the best characteristics of the Swiss Mondia Special road touring bike and the Ritchey Team Comp Mountain bike I used for touring previously. The Ti has proven its worth in comfort, durability, handling and beauty over the last two plus decades including the Divide Ride as a rigid bike mounting 700x47 tires. The Gordon racks are a marvel too.

On a previous Ti bashing thread based on cost I answered by saying that my BG Ti cost the price of one less latte a week for the 20 years I had ridden it at the time of that thread. I guess that I learned from my old Norwegian stone mason grandfather who said buy the best tool you can afford and take good care of it and it will take care of you. It has been a cheap joy enabling tool for me. [If you are buying Ti for $$ bragging rights like a McMansion or exotic car don't waste your time or money.]

A bike touring friend tried my bike and loved it. But BG no longer made Ti bikes so he had Seven Cycles build a very similar Ti frame. In short order he rode the Trans Am, The Pacific Coast Route and then rode from Prudhoe Bay to Panama with South America to Tierra del Fuego in his sights. He could not be happier with the performance and comfort of his Ti bike..

I don't think anyone is "bashing" titanium. It is a simple fact that it's horrendously expensive, for little material benefit over steel.

Most of what makes a bike feel responsive or stable isn't the frame material, it's the geometry and tube design.

In terms of cost the Salsa Vaya frameset is $600, the Vaya Ti is $2000. That $1400 difference could mean nothing to one person, whereas to another it could be the price of the rest of the build, or a second bike, or a short tour. And there's almost no advantages to Ti here; all you get is corrosion resistance, a particular look and a negligible reduction in weight. The "best tool" argument falls short when you're dealing with rapidly diminishing returns.

H'm, maybe it is a Ti bashing argument after all... :D

Ti has long been a favorite of the long distance sport cycling crowd. It's been eclipsed by carbon now, but there are still a lot of Ti bikes at the start of a brevet. I think smoother ride quality and lighter weight over steel were the main drivers there. One sees very few steel bikes in that sport. It does also help that the frames last almost forever. That's probably a reason we keep seeing them. Be sure to get a touring specific frame, though, with touring specific tube choices. The only complaint about Ti bikes is that they can be a bit noodly if the builder doesn't get it right, and since so many Ti bikes are custom frame jobs, that does happen.

Edit: On the Touring forum one does see a lot of folks recommending running large, soft tires on their steel touring bikes. I can't help thinking that's a result of running stiff-tubed steel bikes. Our steel tandem tours fine on skinny high pressure tires, comparatively anyway, even at twice the weight of a single touring bike, but a tandem is notoriously smooth riding, being long, and Stoker has a compression post. So you might find a cascade of benefits: lighter, smoother riding tubes enabling lighter, smoother riding wheels, enabling faster tires, all equaling a much less tiring and more enjoyable tour.

Like others have said, I see no real benefit from it for touring application.

biknbrian, Ti is one of those great materials that cost an arm and a leg in material and construction. If the extra cost is worth it to you, it's a good choice. It will probably out last any steel or aluminum frame on the market, but I really don't care that my great grand children may or may not ride one of my bikes.

Brad

Thank for all the feedback, though I'm starting to think that for me at least the benefits of Ti may not be worth the cost. I can pick just about any price point and still get an all around nicer bike in steel. Today at least I'm still thinking that I'd like to go a step or two beyond say, Surly. I can get into some very nice steel bikes for the price of a custom built Vaya Ti, which after looking at some of the other options is starting to seem like entry level Ti. On the other hand I can buy a Windors Tourist or Nashbar Touring, stay under roof instead of camp when I do tour, buy a pile of Jeep parts, and still have some money left over to do something nice with my family.

Mostly now I'm just thinking about all the options, but I promised myself I would have another bike before next winter when the studs go on my do it all bike. I need that set up, but I also spent too many sunny 45 degrees days clattering all around.

Anyway, I may not be checking in for a few days, I'm actually going on my first little tour tomorrow. 3 days on the GAP.

Enjoy. It's going to be a hot weekend. Stay hydrated.

good to spend less on the bike, and then have funds for nice
restaurant meals along the way..
here's to Pub luncheons :beer:

Best rational thought.

Enjoy your trip.

I think the Ti durability thing is overstated. A bicycle made of any material will last if you take care of it. I have a steel framed bicycle I bought in 1985, and it's still in excellent shape because I keep it clean and dry.

I´m absolutely no expert on the pros and cons of the various types of bikes (steel vs ti vs aluminum vs whatever else is out there), but I decided that when I bought my touring bike that I´d buy ti because of its durability and weight and because I wasn´t planning on buying another bike in this lifetime. I don´t regret it. I went with a basic setup from Habanero cycles (http://www.habcycles.com) and can honestly say that it was one of the best buying decisions I´ve made. The customer service was phenomenal. I had some glitches that were entirely my fault due to ignorance and they walked me through them with undeserved patience. I didn´t know much about touring in general when I made my first trip, but the bike was a star. Now that I´m home, I´m at that point where I actually feel like (insert geek music here) the bike and I are one. Good luck on whatever bike you choose and don´t forget to post pics.