sstorkel

The genius of Surly is that they can take $20 of chro-moly tubing and somehow turn it into a $500+ frame, then bolt on a bunch of bottom-end components and sell the whole thing for a premium price. If you're willing to spend time shopping, you could probably buy a frame and components, bolt them together yourself and end up with a significantly nicer bike for not much additional money.

That's what I did! Started with a $99 Nashbar double-butted aluminum touring frame and ended up with a 23lb bike that cost only slightly more than a Long Haul Trucker and every piece on it was hand-picked to be exactly what I wanted! Looks like I spent around $1025 on the frame and components plus another $430 on wheels. Prices don't include tires, tubes, bottle cages, or rim strips nor the seat post and saddle I borrowed from another bike. They do include some extravagant upgrades (albeit purchased a fire sale prices): Shimano Ultegra triple brifters, Ultegra triple FD, Ultegra RD, a Nashbar carbon fiber cyclocross fork, and Shimano XTR hubs.

fietsbob

with Doug on that , components can be changed..

The Bottom line is the total of the cost of the whole kit.

Product managers do know what the popup feature adds to the mix

like a tier up on a RD , a highlight, or Hubs.. in the machine built wheels.

OldZephyr

I don't know if the tubing for the LHT costs $20. But even if it did, I doubt that the cost of the raw tubing is a significant proportion of the cost of any frame. It's the fabrication, finishing, and painting that is the real cost, isn't it?

What "bottom end" components are you referring to on the LHT? The hubs, rims, shifters, and derailleurs all are of good quality and appropriate for the use. Perhaps the brakes could be better, but they're certainly not "bottom end".

If the LHT is so overpriced for a complete bike (given its supposedly cheap frame material and its supposed cheap "bottom end" components), wouldn't we see other touring bikes of *comparable quality* sold for significantly less? Or put another way, is there any comparably equipped touring-specific bike sold in the US at bike stores that is significantly less than the LHT? The Trek 520, Raleigh Sojourn, Novara Randonee, Bianchi Volpe all are $1100 or more, aren't they?

The LHT certainly is not the ultimate touring bike, but it works well out of the box, and what other touring specific bike is out there for that much less?

cyccommute 

I'm not sure what you are looking for in an 'ultimate' touring bike but the LHT comes very, very close. The only thing that would make it better, in my opinion, would be if it were aluminum. But I already have one of those

BRAZUCA

I agree with you guys, there is not a lot out there, but looking at reviews from a few years back, the components were indeed better at the same price level, so for sure, Surley is increasing its profit margin or getting some money back now that the product has a name. Probably the components are indeed really appropriate for the job and no, I could not find another similar equipped bike (new) at a better price. So my list in the order of preference:

1- Surly Disc Trucker $1,375
2- Surly LHT $1,275
3- Trek 520 $1,375
4- ...Nope, nada, nicht (Either very nice but too expensive or similar priced and lower quality or not really proved)

Thanks, your comments are really helping me.

fietsbob

Well a big part is the Contract and the CAD specs they send
to Taiwan's big contract manufacturers.
then the have a product that can go thru the importer,QBP,
and to the dealer , your LBS,
so have 2 layers of business overhead to cover,
and still come out at a reasonable cost.

bradtx

There's always the Raleigh Sojourn.

LeeG

BRAZUCA, seems to me you're letting specs. guide your decision making more than your intended use. Back to your op you're describing a sport touring road bike or cross bike more than a loaded touring bike which opens up to a lot more bikes with the 520 better fitting your stated criteria than the LHT. Go check out a Specialized TriCross or Surly Cross-Check. Seems to me the ride mix you're describing is 80%unloaded 20% commutting/light touring. That isn't LHT territory.

BRAZUCA

That is true: Raleigh Sojourn and Jamis Aurora as well as the Fuji Touring, I have to agree that those should be considered as well.

mm718

There's a photo of the 2013 LHT on Surly's Facebook page. "Smoggy pearl" is the new color...

NCbiker

It's not? Maybe I should stop doing my 25mi a day commute on my Trucker.

sstorkel

You can check tubing prices at Nova Cycle Supply. Retail cost for a single chro-moly tube set is around $80. I would assume that Surly buys in volume and probably pays $20-30 or less for the tubing. Aluminum is more expensive than chro-moly, and trickier to weld, yet Nashbar still manages to sell their double-butted aluminum touring frameset for $135 (or as low as $108 during their 20% off sales) compared to $470 for the LHT.

My list of bottom-end components would include: Sora front derailleur, Shimano LX rear derailleur, Shimano LX hubs, Shimano UN54 bottom bracket, Andel crank, Tektro brake calipers and levers, PMT handlebar, Kalloy seat post. It's all dirt-cheap or no-name stuff. Sure, it may work but don't kid yourself into thinking you're getting Ultegra, XT, or X.9 quality.

You should take a look at the Bikes Direct Windsor Tourist. The component specs are similar to the LHT and the other bikes you mention yet it sells for half the price: $599. I'm not saying it's the greatest touring bike, but it gives you a taste for just how much mark-up is built into the LHT's over-inflated price....

LeeG

And when I was a kid I rode many 25 mile days on a 38lb. Schwinn 5spd. Later commuted on a steel racing bike. My point being that BRAZUCA has narrowed his choices to two bikes when his stated use doesn't require the capabilities of the LHT.

njkayaker

How big are disk brake pads? (Heck, carrying extra caliper brake pads isn't that hard either.)

The Surly disk brakes aren't hydraulic.

This guy used disk brakes.

https://road.cc/content/news/59716-in...rld-record-kit

njkayaker

I believe the Surly LHT has larger tire/fender clearance than the Trek 520.

Note that the Trucker Deluxe is only available with 26 inch wheels. The normal LHT is available with 26 inch or 700c wheels (except smaller sizes are 26 inch only).

Also note that the Trucker Deluxe is frame set only (not available as a complete bike). The total cost is going to be above $2000. But, if you plan to fly with it, being able carry it normal luggage would be well-worth the extra cost!

njkayaker

Mostly, you'll find that any bike had better components "a few years" back.

Due to inflation, there's a choice between raising the price of a model of bike or using less-expensive components.

Companies usually try to keep prices for particular models (fairly) level by using less-expensive parts.

njkayaker

A waste of money (talking about front deraillers). And I had a Tiagra FD become trash when the tab that holds the spring sheared-off (it seems other people have had that problem too).

(Note that Tiagra stuff is fine but I wasn't that impressed with the FD after the problem I had.)

cyccommute 

I've been using the one that came on my 2003 T800 for the last 9 years and never had any kind of problem with it. It's a far better derailer than the Ultegra I'm using on my commuter bike because it's easier to set up and it's more forgiving.

OldZephyr

1) If you want a double butted chro-moly touring frameset, what out there is cheaper than the LHT frame?

2) To me, low end on the derailleur side would be Altus/Alivio; LX is above Deore which is above other grades on Shimano's hierarchy, and some on these boards prefer the LX hubs to XT (though I don't know if they are correct) -- certainly Peter White thinks that LX hubs are good quality, and I'd think he would know; the BB is good and durable, how much better does a BB have to be than the UN54? The crankset appears well finished to me although it's a "no name" product. The wheelset is good and reliable and strong -- it's not a low end wheel that easily will get out of true or break spikes if loaded. I agree about the seatpost -- it's not finished all that well and is klunky. Brake levers work well -- brakes themselves could be better -- better brake blocks would help. But in general, unless "low-end" means "anything under Ultegra level", the LHT is not fitted with "low-end" components. They work well, are durable, and are appropriate to the use.

I don't think anyone is fooling themselves that any of this stuff is Ultegra. It isn't. But here's a question -- what would Ultegra really add to the functionality of the bike? And another question -- what road bikes out there are equipped with Ultegra level components for $1275 retail at a bike store? I don't know of any. Heck, 105 equipped road bikes from Cannondale or Trek run around $1800! $1275 probably will buy you a Tiagra level road bike, which is perfectly functional, but Tiagra isn't Ultegra.

3) I'm aware of the Windsor Tourist -- but that's apples and oranges -- it's not sold at a bike store (hence no profit built into the price for the LBS), and because you purchase it via the mail, there's no help with fit and swapping out stem, etc., which does have value for a lot of people. Also, the components certainly are not comparable to the LHT with respect to the wheelset. The Windsor crankset and drivetrain result in gearing is too high with that road triple. A person who can build up their own bike won't be put off by purchasing something like the Windsor from Bikesdirect, but many purchasers will want to go to their bike shop for assistance, getting the wheels right, changing out at least a chainring (and maybe swapping out the crankset), and that could easily add $150-250 to the cost. The Motobecane on Bikesdirect at $800 does have comparable components to the LHT, but again, that doesn't include the profit for the bike store, and if a person goes to the LBS for assistance and to swap out a stem, then the cost for the Motobecane is close to $1000.

4) Again I ask, are there any touring bikes with components comparable to the LHT (strong wheels, appropriate drivetrain and gearing, and not "touring bikes" with road triples and 12-25 cassettes) *sold at bike stores* that significantly undercut the LHT?

OldZephyr

I'm not looking for an ultimate bike, I am happy with what I have. I had to replace my old Trek 720, the LHT would be great. I would not need any better. But a Co-motion or a Rodriguez or a Rivendell or a Bruce Gordon would be closer to an "ultimate" touring bike in terms of finish and components, that's all.

cyccommute 

Let me preface this by saying that I'm not above buying something for the bling. However, the LHT frame can easily be listed among those bikes as a contender for the "ultimate" touring bike for a fraction of the cost. As a mass production bike, it stands head and shoulders above anything else on the market. As a complete bike, it's no slouch when it comes to components as well. I'd make some other choices but then I probably wouldn't buy a complete bike to begin with.

Short answer: no.

cyccommute 

If you are flying domestic US, Frontier and Southwest allow you to check bikes...in a box or bag (the Performance travel bag is allowed)...as baggage for a $20 upcharge. I've done it twice this year without problems.

njkayaker

Interesting.

It isn't a usual problem but I researched it and ran across other examples. I presume that many people have no problems at all with them.

The issue is whether it's worth to "upgrade" to it. It would seem to make more sense to keep the completely-serviceable FD and replace it if it breaks.

And some airlines (United) charge $100. The extra cost of the S&S LHT is about $500 (the actual difference is going to be higher because you'd have to build-up the bike yourself and there are extra bits required to be able to split the bike).

If you are travelling to the places Frontier and Southwest go, that's 12.5 round trips (a fairly high number of trips).

On other airlines (and internationally), it's like 3 round trips.

The person in question is thinking about going to Brazil.

Also, there are other advantages beyond baggage fees as well (and some downsides).

If somebody is considering the 26 inch wheel LHT and are thinking of travelling with it, they should strongly consider the S&S coupled one.

NCbiker

Yes, the OP has narrowed down his choices to two bikes, both of which are designed primarily for loading touring, but to say his stated use doesn't require the capabilities of the LHT is implying the 520 would be a better choice.

I agree with you that a Crosscheck might be a better choice for his intended use, but to suggest that the LHT is not capable of being a good commuter is wrong. I love my LHT and use it for both touring and commuting. I have ridden all three of the bikes in question and I would chose the LHT for the OP's intended use, but that is just my personal preference. Yes, the Crosscheck is a slightly faster and more agile, but I find that speed is largely dependent on the engine and I like the stability of the LHT over the Crosscheck. Once loaded the LHT wins hands down over the Crosscheck.

To the OP, I suggest you ride as many touring type bikes as you can get your hands on. This includes the Crosscheck and the Jamis Aurora. Comfort is king and there is only one way to judge this, and that's ride them.

sstorkel

If your LBS is charging you $200 to swap stems, you need to find a new one! Mine will sell you a stem for $30-40 and install it for free if the shop isn't busy...

If you feel that your LBS is providing $475-676 of service before and after the sale, then by all means: skip BikesDirect and buy yourself an LHT. I simply couldn't stomach the thought of paying $1300 for a bike and ending up with a Sora FD, Andel crank, and bar-end shifters so I shopped around for components and built my own bike. $1500 later I have a touring bike where every component is several notches better than what Surly includes on the LHT. Because of that, I can't help but think the LHT is vastly over-priced. Sorry, if that offends you!