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Mountain Lions -- Attacks, Behaviors, Psychologies, Responses

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Mountain Lions -- Attacks, Behaviors, Psychologies, Responses

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Old 11-28-12, 04:59 PM
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Niles H.
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Mountain Lions -- Attacks, Behaviors, Psychologies, Responses

Some recent posts have mentioned concern about mountain lions while touring and camping. Some people here have mentioned that these animals cause them more concern than bears. Pumas are not often seen because they are very stealthy; but they are widespread, and most people who have spent time touring, camping, or hiking in their territory have been watched and stalked (according to experts I spoke with about this). Some people feel it when they are being watched. This was mentioned on the recent bear thread, and I know people who have had the same feeling, very strongly.

Last summer there was an attack very close to where I was touring at the time. Here are some reports,



I had been bathing in that exact creek, near where the attack occurred, and camping nearby; and I felt that it could have been me in the sleeping bag. And then, not long after the search for that mountain lion was abandoned (they weren't able to find it/her, though they did capture and release a male), I was hiking on a trail in the same area, and a mountain lion ambushed and killed a deer just down from the trail as I listened in real time. It could have been the same mountain lion. So all this really got my attention. This video gives some sense of the suddenness of their attacks:


And this gives a sense of the typical stealth-watching-approach--launch--sudden ambush--take down (beginning at about 03:24):


04:04 gives a sense of why they advise you not to run.

I've been learning more about these cats -- and the more I learn, the better I like it. (Same with bears, rattlesnakes, ticks, poisonous plants, and other hazards.) There is something salutary about familiarizing oneself. It seems to naturally dissolve fears and anxieties, in my experience.

This one gives some feeling for their elusiveness, and why it is they are so often unseen, even when they are stalking or moving close by (in this case, a couple [Brits?] who are visiting hot springs near Mammoth), but especially when still, which they often are while watching:


Fascinating, beautiful, dangerous wild animals.

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Old 11-28-12, 09:05 PM
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I wouldn’t worry much about mountain lions. You will probably never see one. I’ve seen exactly one in the wilds in my entire life. It is my understanding when they ambush their prey they break its neck and then crush its skull, or maybe it is the other way around. Either way it will all be over very quickly. I know back country runners’ feet and leg movements are supposed to sharpen their attack response. Maybe we could start a study about the spinning pedals of a bicycle and the feline neurological tension. Some dogs certainly seem to get excited around moving bicycles.

More seriously, they are pretty shy around humans and I have never heard of one attacking a group of people. Keep small children and small adults close to you. While I have only seen one cougar, I’ve been in a few campgrounds with cougar paw prints in or around the area or in the mud at a nearby river’s edge. I do carry pepper spray and keep it in reach when an area is posted as having recent cougar sightings. I have also made a “Never Cry Wolf” barriers around my tent after drinking three or four cups of tea. Have never seen a mountain lion when I have marked off and area, so it must work.
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Old 11-28-12, 10:13 PM
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just wait till you actually see one while riding.

but if you're comfortable with the wilderness, just live with the trill of it. it's fleeting.
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Old 11-28-12, 10:35 PM
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Concern about a possible mountain lion attack is way, way down the list of things I worry about while cycling. I've seen one while hiking with my daughter and the mama cougar was bringing a squirrel to its two cubs for hunting practice and lunch. Neither of us had any kind of sense of being watched but I'm sure we were - moments before we saw the cougar we had been walking on a trail directly between her and where the cubs were hidden.
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Old 11-29-12, 04:42 AM
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i think a woman hiker was killed in california by a mountain lion in the last couple of years. Certainly a rare event, but if riders do go into the wilderness, there's things to think about.

Once I was flying around a corner downhill on a mountain bike up in the Bozeman watershed when I encountered a grizz eating berries, fully blocking the two track..... I can't imagine the thrill to round a corner and see a cougar, poised on a boulder, ready to pounce. I'd be more concerned about the cougar in those situations.

bear hunt prey differently than cougar do.

I saw a cougar near where i was planning to pull up and stop one bike trip in the Cascades- i rode across a river several miles further on before I pitched camp that night.

I've also seen one scurrying across the trail ahead of me on a fairly remote wilderness trail - that made for an interesting 45 seconds of riding.
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Old 11-29-12, 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Bekologist View Post
i think a woman hiker was killed in california by a mountain lion in the last couple of years. Certainly a rare event, but if riders do go into the wilderness, there's things to think about.
Here is one list of reported attacks in CA:

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

Look at 2004 and 2007. Scary stuff when it happens.

This appears to be a more official source for the state:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/lion/attacks.html

At least one apparently found MTBs more to its liking:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ain-lion_x.htm
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Old 11-29-12, 08:41 AM
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Readers Digest had an interesting and chilling article about mountain lion attacks on humans a few years ago. The article told of several cases in Colorado where runners were attacked (one of them killed) while on trails in the foothills near Denver and Boulder.

Fortunately we do not have to worry about them in the East (outside of the Everglades). Surprising to me, however, is that there are also quite a few documented cases of bobcats attacking people. At first I was skeptical about this, but found quite a few cases when I googled the topic.
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Old 11-29-12, 10:20 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Here is one list of reported attacks in CA:

http://tchester.org/sgm/lists/lion_attacks_ca.html

Look at 2004 and 2007. Scary stuff when it happens.

This appears to be a more official source for the state:

http://www.dfg.ca.gov/news/issues/lion/attacks.html

At least one apparently found MTBs more to its liking:

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...ain-lion_x.htm
So, according to the link from DFG, in California there were 16 people attacked, six of them fatally, in the span of one hundred and seventeen years. That averages out to one person attacked each 7.3 years, and one person killed each 19.5 years in the entire state of California.

Learning how to protect yourself and/or avoid attack is always a good idea, but I think the mountain lion threat is right up there with spontaneous combustion.
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Old 11-29-12, 11:13 AM
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I have traveled by foot, horseback, canoe, and bicycle for many years throughout the coastal mountains of British Columbia, and during that time have seen several cougars. Only twice was I aware that a cat was preparing to attack, and it actually had it's focus on my horse, not me. I have surprised cats a few times and they've shown no aggression, only wishing to get away as soon as they could. I know I've been watched many times, and because of this, take precautions to lessen the chance of an attack. I don't run or cycle on forestry trails that I know could contain cats. I avoid running or cycling close to potential ambush sites even on forestry roads where bushy overhangs etc. are very close to the roadside, and I never sit down for a break etc. with my back close to and facing bush. There have been a few cougar attacks on individuals either jogging or cycling along forestry trails in B.C. and can be classified as 'chance opportunities' triggered by 'prey flight.' The attacks on both children and adults that weren't running or cycling usually have been close to settlements and the victims were stalked. Along the coast, people have thwarted stalking cats many times by being diligent, knowing they were living in cougar country. Keeping children close to you and away from the forest edge if they're playing, and constantly being aware of your surroundings greatly reduces chances of attack. Yes, I'm more concerned about cougars (because they're sneaky) than about bears, but really, for the huge numbers of humans spending time in the woods in bear and cougar country, your chances of an encounter are probably less than winning a lottery.
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Old 11-29-12, 11:42 AM
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Statistically attacks are exceedingly rare. Getting creamed by a car or truck is way more likely. Even being struck by lightning is probably much more likely, so it cougar attacks don't really worry me.

Just in general I will say that I consider bike touring to be a pretty safe activity. I suspect that I may actually be safer on tour than I am in my day to day life at home.
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Old 11-29-12, 11:47 PM
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I agree that I have much more to fear from drivers than animal attacks.

I remember reading about a study of mountain lions in Orange County that outfitted them with trackers. One young male made his way through Camp Pendleton down to the coast south of San Clemente, and would spend the days holed up in dense vegetation just north of Trestles Beach and a few meters from the intensively used bike path there, part of the Pacific Coast route. I realized that he must have watched me ride by many times on that path. Eventually and very depressingly, like most of the cats in the study, he was hit by a car, but lived six months longer while horribly maimed before starving to death. Seems the cats have a common enemy with us cyclists.
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Old 11-30-12, 06:57 AM
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I tawt I taw a puddy tat!
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Old 11-30-12, 03:50 PM
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Niles H.
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Attacks are unlikely, as bear attacks and lightning strikes are. But it doesn't follow that taking an interest has no value. I would rather be engaged than disengaged.

Also, most people learn at least the basics of dealing with bears and lightning strikes. In fact, I would like to learn more about both, especially lightning.

At trailhead kiosks in much of the West, you can find a small set of warnings. Rattlesnakes, ticks, poison oak, and mountain lions are the ones I see most often. Those who have studied the issues see a value in giving these warnings.

Also, the statistics can be very misleading:

There are many unreported attacks. I've been looking at this aspect quite a bit, and mulling it over; and I would put the unreported attacks in the thousands.

I know of some myself. In one case, it would have ended very badly if the young man involved had not been carrying a rifle at the time. He was sitting on a rock alongside a dirt road on National Forest land (inside Los Padres National Forest), and watched a mountain lion cub come out onto the road from a trail just up the hill. Then another cub. Then the mother.

When the mother saw him, it didn't hesitate -- it went right for him.

There were other incidents in the same canyon. (I lived there for a while, and knew the owner of the inholding.)

None of these were reported.

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Old 12-01-12, 02:37 PM
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I saw a pair of mountain lions jump across the trail in front of me while on the Great Divide route this summer. I stopped and watched them for the few seconds they were in view. One of the highlights of the trip. We were a bit worried though for the next 15 minutes while we rode down the trail. I didn't see any bears however for the whole trip. That was a bit of a disappointment. I'm much more fearful of getting creamed by a vehicle than a wild animal. The biggest bear doesn't weigh as much as a compact car, nor does it travel as fast.
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Old 12-01-12, 03:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Niles H. View Post
Attacks are unlikely, as bear attacks and lightning strikes are. But it doesn't follow that taking an interest has no value. I would rather be engaged than disengaged.
FWIW, lightning strikes are not in the same class as cougar attacks or bear attacks. Last year in the US 26 were killed and 246 injured by lightning. That is 26 in one year and that was a pretty typical year.

About 20 people in North America were killed by cougars between 1890 and 2011, You can take an interest if you want, but there are an awful lot of other risks much more worthy of worry.
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Old 12-01-12, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by Niles H. View Post
Attacks are unlikely, as bear attacks and lightning strikes are. But it doesn't follow that taking an interest has no value. I would rather be engaged than disengaged.
I agree. It's never a waste of time to be alert, aware, and informed about your surroundings, even regarding events that may be very unlikely. People who have been attacked by mountain lions probably couldn't care less what the statistics say. The key is keeping it all in perspective, so one doesn't end up with a phobia that prevents enjoyment of life due to something that will probably never happen. As someone who at one point had a terrifying fear of flying, but later got over it, I understand this very well. I'm still kicking myself 25 years later for missing out on a free trip to Africa.
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Old 12-01-12, 03:36 PM
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Niles H.
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Part of touring is encountering new things, including wildlife. I enjoy this aspect of it, and enjoy understanding wildlife, among other things, more thoroughly.

Another misleading aspect of statistics is that the vast majority of the population does not live where mountain lions could present a problem. Most people live on the East Coast, or in cities and suburbs, and spend their days in offices, cars, and inside their homes. They are the overwhelming majority.

The percentage of people who are outside, camping, hiking, jogging, or riding a bike, and are in prime cougar territory is very, very small.

Then if you are outside in prime cougar territory, and also in an area where a cougar is known to be a problem, it ups the odds yet again. I've seen Fish and Game (with good reason) post extra warnings is such situations, or close a trail or an area.

It's a bit like saying that the odds of being injured in a Tungsten mine are so infinitesimal that it isn't worth considering the details. But there may be value in considering the details, in more than one way. Especially so if you are visiting certain Tungsten mines.

At any rate, I find it to be a fascinating part of bike touring, and enjoy understanding it more.

Even non-dangerous wildlife can be fascinating to watch and study and get to know more fully. It can be very interesting.

Here is a guy who was attacked on a trail in Colorado:


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Old 12-01-12, 06:25 PM
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Originally Posted by staehpj1 View Post
FWIW, lightning strikes are not in the same class as cougar attacks or bear attacks. Last year in the US 26 were killed and 246 injured by lightning. That is 26 in one year and that was a pretty typical year.

About 20 people in North America were killed by cougars between 1890 and 2011, You can take an interest if you want, but there are an awful lot of other risks much more worthy of worry.
Pretty well sums it all up, doesn't it.
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Old 12-01-12, 07:20 PM
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Mountain lions have more to fear from us than we have to fear from them. Same as sharks...
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Old 12-01-12, 08:05 PM
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here's something to consider, speaking from someone who's seen them and plenty other wild things,

chances of attack are very low. so are your chances of being caught in an avalanche, even if you travel in the backcountry in the winter.

However, do skiers sometimes consider avalanches when they go out in the backcountry?

I'm not saying people have to ride in fear of being attacked by a mountain lion - you are lucky if you get a chance to see one, but be aware they are there, just like avalanches.you'll likely never encounter either until you start spending a lot of time where they live

And the funny thing about catamounts are - you really can't do anything about them, it's not like bear safety where you can actually do something about it while you're in camp! I'd bet more of you've been seen by mountain lions than you think.


.



On a side note, I'm more afraid of running into a moose in the woods than a cougar. And I've run into a few moose in my day. They literally sound like a bulldozer coming at you thru small brush. And worse is surprising one coming your direction on a trail -moose have a charge instinct.

And never go up against an angry elk - One stormy night on top of Cascade Pass, me and a buddy awoke from our bivy to the sound of snorts and hoofs cracking at the rocks..... we were in grave danger of being trampled by an racked elk who thought the scarce level ground we were inhabiting was where we were he wanted to sleep too. Elk won too, we hightailed it off the perch to lower ground.

How about Marmots the size of an overweight boxer dog hissing and not yielding a trail, so you have to step around? Or mountain goats coming close in the high country and harassing you like, well, kind of like goats you encounter in a barnyard? A day hiker got killed in Olympic National Park by one of these meddlesome goats a couple of years ago - watch out for approaching goats if you're up riding the real high country.

Wildlife is fun but hey, you've got to keep perspective. They're like avalanches. You won't likely encounter them. but when you do (of all kinds), now that's living!

Also, some of us are more likely to be encountering these animals in our derring do .

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Old 12-01-12, 08:12 PM
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i've been awakened twice while stealth camping by mountains lions. both times i did a lot noise making and they eventually moved off. i pulled my bike over top of me on one occasion just to make it more difficult for the cat to attack me. the other time i was backpacking so there was little to do.

both times i found that i had been camping in a well used cat hide out. how did i know this?
in the morning upon looking around more closely i found LOTS of cat scat and numerous deer hooves and bones scattered around.

the first location was just above the animas river on the colorado/new mexico border between durango and farmington. the other was near willits ca, close to clear lake. i think i was in more danger than i reckoned as i was alone both times.
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Old 12-01-12, 08:39 PM
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I lived in the coast range "forests" (not much natural forest left amongst the tree farms) in a yurt for eight years with my wife and son. We were definitely watched by at least one cougar, but we never saw him/her. We saw the scat and footprints. On one walk (we had a regular 14 mile loop along the ridge top and back to the river that we walked twice a week), we turned back for home after four miles. In the time we had strolled from the two mile point to where we turned around and got back to the two mile point, a cougar had killed a small elk. The kill was fresh and only partially eaten, but we still didn't see the cougar.

We still live close enough to the coast hills that we cycle through there regularly. I finally saw my first cougar last Spring. He/she had been killed by a motor vehicle along Upper Smith River Rd in the Oregon and California Railroad Lands. I'm sure the cougar was as surprised to find a motor vehicle there as I would have been. (I've gone as many as 135 miles at a stretch without seeing a car on those roads.)

Somewhere I have a video of the second cougar I have ever seen. My wife and I were coming off Roman Nose in those same O&C lands when one crossed the road in front of us. We happened to have our GoPro going at the time.

They are truly beautiful animals. While there is a slight risk of attack, it seems clear that cougars have much more to fear from humans than we do from them.
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Old 12-01-12, 08:58 PM
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Cougars in my town are extremely common, in fact, we had one walking on our front yard about 3 weeks ago. There have been several attacks and a few deaths over the years within a few miles of home. Really the biggest thing to beware of is your pets. Cougars love small dogs and cats for supper.

Bears: Meh. Learn to ID them and respect them. Not a big deal.

Elk: Big scary, dumb animals.

Lynx/Bobcats: Beautiful animals, feel blessed that you've seen one. Rarely a threat.

Humans: Most dangerous animal of all.
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Old 12-01-12, 09:05 PM
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Originally Posted by niknak View Post
The biggest bear doesn't weigh as much as a compact car, nor does it travel as fast.
but the car doesn't eat you after it hits you!
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