Question about down bags
 

From everything I have read down sleeping bags are the material of choice providing they stay dry. My question for those that own down bags is how wet to they have to be before they loose their insulation properties. Is it a soaking rain or simply the condensation and humidity that can accumulate in a small tent.

Mine has never gotten wet except when being washed in the 37 years that I've used it. But just condensation over a period of a few days could reduce the insulation considerably. When camping in freezing temperatures I use a vapor barrier liner inside the bag which lets me use the bag at well under its normal rated temperature and also almost eliminates condensation. In warmer conditions I let the bag air out by fluffing it up inside the tent shortly after arriving at the campsite so any moisture can dry out before I go to bed.

I've been holed up in a tent with my wife in pouring rain for days at a time. Our down bag stayed plenty dry enough. You need a tent large enough that the bag won't touch the tub floor sides, which will get wet from condensation even in a well-ventilated tent, and you need not to pitch in a hole that will fill with water in case your floor leaks. I'm not a fan of sleeping under a tarp in the rain in any bag. Though I have just rolled up in a tarp in the rain and done OK in a down bag that's not my favorite thing. I've also rolled up in a tarp with my down bag and rolled into a tree well on purpose for shelter in winter. That was OK, too, but I wouldn't recommend it for most folks. We air out our bag on top of our tent when we get some sun.

I've been using down bags for 50 years and wouldn't have anything else.

I'm not sure that is entirely correct. It is the material of choice for some people. I was on a tour 2 years ago where it rained 35 out of 90 days, and I was glad that I had a synthetic bag. I have both synthetic and down bags, but prefer the synthetic for everything except prolonged temps well below freezing.

Even for most mountaineering and winter camping here in the Pacific Northwest, I still prefer my synthetic bag.

Synthetic bags are easier to wash and they dry quicker than down bags. While setting up camp in a campground, a dog walked over to my bag that was laying on the ground and pee'd on it. A quick trip to the laundry facility in the campground fixed the problem.

I use down bags and upon waking in the morning (every morning thats not raining) I try to find a tree to hang my bag for at least half an hour to air it out and help dry any condensation. The damper the bag the cooler the nights sleep is going to be. Not a problem till you get a really dry and chilly night after forgetting to air the bag for a few days. Usually by the time I've finished breakfast and cleaned up and packed my tent, enough time has passed to properly dry my bag. Sometimes if its a wet morning I pack everything and wait till lunch or early afternoon to do it if the rain doesnt quit.

Personally I feel down bags are over-rated. Their biggest advantage - compressability - is also their biggest shortcomming. Loft is what creates the insulating air space, but underneath you - the down compresses and the only resulting insulation between you and the ground is whatever you're using as a pad. Since direct contact with cold ground will cause heat loss faster than exposure to air at the same temperature - I prefer something with less compressability and more effective insulating potential. In most cases I can get by with an Alpaca wool pancho, which also has a number of other uses. When I retired my last down sleeping bags they had already been replaced with ones with PolarGuard insulation.

Canoe camping and kayaking, I always take a synthetic bag because dew is heavy and it is damp when camping on a lake shore. Backpacking I always use down due to weight. Winter camping, I have used down because that is what I had but a lot of moisture accumulated in the down when I did not use a VBL.

Bike touring, I have used both synthetic bags and down bags but I am more careful with the down than the synthetic.

I camped in the rockys for 6 straight weeks with a down bag quite a few years ago, had a brief rain virtually every day but otherwise the air was usually dry and I got by with occasionally putting my bag on top of the tent in the sun for a half hour to air it out.

I think it varies a lot on how humid it will be where you are camping.

Talk to some bag makers, see if they won't make you a bag that's
down on top and a synthetic on the bottom.

Kelty says they've got waterproof down, but I haven't heard anything about it so far.

I've toured in the past with synthetic bags, but used a down bag on our current travels ... and I love it. Much preferred to the synthetic.

My down bag has not been wet at all. It is stored in a drybag when we're travelling, and our tent has been remarkably good for being dry, even in heavy downpours.


That said, if I were to make a change to the down sleeping bag, I think I'd go with a down quilt, like a doona ... something without a zipper. I'm not comfortable sleeping inside a bag, so I usually sleep with the bag sort of under me and sort of draped over me, like I would with a folded quilt.

Down bags have a longer life as well as being more compressible and lighter. Always sleep with a high quality sleeping pad, no matter which type of bag you go with. Down won't lose it's insulation with even a few nights of condensation but do air it out when you get the chance.

I have both types and have found each have their pluses and minuses but have taken to down recently because of their lifespan, weight, and compactness. I just never let my down bags get wet.

A down bag will get progressively more damp every day and night you spend in heavy rain and fog (100% RH). In my experience, if it's raining and foggy all day and you have no way to dry it out in the sun or a machine, it starts getting really noticeable on night three, and by night four you have a very damp bag but still survivable. This has happened several times to me, every time on trips through Washington's North Cascades. Every time I was happy to have had the down rather than synthetic. The nice thing about bike touring is that you can usually get somewhere dry and warm within four days and take care of your bag.

or down on top and the thermarest foam air mattress for the bottom..

thing that may dampen the down is sweating in the bag, and having it condense in the filling.

a vapor barrier liner cures that.. ..

Yes, best is down on top and just a flocked sheet on the bottom, with a pocket in it for a NeoAir. Now that's heaven. There's no reason to sleep on top of down. Our rig was made by Feathered Friends. I think Big Agnes has similar if you ask. Thus, there is a zipper down both sides of the bag, which you can use or not use as much as you want, according to temperature. This system is light enough that one can make a good case for buying more bag than one needs. Our rig is a double.

Re the complaints about a down bag picking up moisture: one of my favorite things about a down bag is that is self-adjusts to current temps. IOW, if your bag is too warm you'll sweat and your sweat will condense in the down and the bag will become a less warm bag, so you stop sweating and sleep more comfortably. Conversely, if it cools off you'll dry out the accumulated sweat and your bag will become warmer. I have frequently dried relatively large quantities of wet synthetic garments and wool socks in my down bag and had them be almost dry in the morning, with no discomfort at all. Works like a charm, due the permeability of the down and ripstop nylon - it passes moisture through it very easily.

Synthetic fill outsells down probably 10-1, when I worked in a backpacking store in the 80s it was probably a lot more than that. Of course a large part of that is that given pros and cons on both sides the cost differential tends to be the real reason people choose synthetics. Synthetics do have a safety advantage, which is critical where bad weather exists, and the possibility of bailing to the roadside does not. While down is function most of the time, sooner or later something bad happens, and if you can't seek shelter it can be a life threatening event. But I think that is pretty unlikely while cycle touring in the NA. The worst weather I was out in occurred within reach of a motel.

What I like to use is a synthetic quilt. A lot of time during the summer I just use the bag as a blanket anyway, so using a quilt is a significant cost, weight , and bulk reducer.

I have nice bags in both down and synthetic. I prefer the down bag. It is lighter, packs smaller, and is just as comfy. I have never had issues keeping it dry, but I avoid excessive sweating in it since I prefer to sleep a little cool.

Whether they absorb moisture from condenstation particularly also depends on whether the shell is waterproof and breathable.

Now that's an idea I'd never heard of, and I like it. I've noticed that, too, but never formulated the idea before.

If someone from Everett WA can make down work, I'll listen to him! (I lived in Issaquah for a few years.)

One caveat on drying clothes in the down bag...you have to aware of the RH of the outside air. If it's 100%, ain't nothin' going to dry and you might be left with a real mess. In dry air, though, it works like a charm.

These are nice

http://www.jacksrbetter.com/
http://www.jacksrbetter.com/shop/sierra-sniveller/

I got one for my daughter and it's well made.

One has to limit the amount of clothing to be dried by both temperature and humidity. It will depend on the person, bag, tent, etc. One has to experiment. I've always been able to dry at least socks and an undershirt, though.

+1

Hard to go wrong with down. Only real negative for touring purposes is higher price.

I am not sure if I mentioned this or not but one other reason someone might go synthetic is a down allergy. I use synthetic when camping with my daughter. She wakes up with pretty obvious symptoms if she sleep near someone in a down bag. I don't think this is an issue for most folks though.

A different question altogether. I use down exclusively for winter camping and have several down comforters for the house. In dry environments they can't be beat.

But for solo bicycle touring I'd usually not bring a sleeping bag at all. A fleece top and leggings is part of the pack as is a top shell for driving in wet weather and with a wool poncho as a mat - I'm pretty good. In fact the normal problem in Canada during the summer is .... things are TOO HOT to do anything except sleep with only your underwear.

When travelling with the GF, I have brought a down comforter on ocassion, but only when travelling off season in September / October and one objective was to camp out near the beach during a storm. Otherwise, during the summer, the usual problem in a small tent is too much body heat and sleeping bags become something you sleep on - not in.

So what kind of temperatures are you guys (n gals) experiencing that you need a sleeping bag and whats the rating on the bag?

I've never been able to make bag-less camping work. Below 70 F I need more than clothing to sleep well, though I don't carry fleece clothing anymore due to its weight and bulk. Even on my recent X-C tour across the US Midwest during a "generational heat wave" (regular temps to 105F), I still wanted to cover up when temps dropped to low 70s by early morning.

The down quilt I brought on the trip (30F rating) worked perfectly for that (as well as for the wet snow a month earlier in the Cascades). I liked the fact that it stayed cleaner on those sweaty muggy nights because I didn't sleep on it. The baffling allowed me to shift down to one edge and cover up with the right amount of insulation.

For me, this worked better than carrying fleece. Fleece is nice in many situations, but it is bulkier and heavier than down for the insulation it provides. I've tried both and this works better for me.

It surprises me to hear that since Canada has mountains that surely must get some cold weather and possibly even snow in the summer. What range of temperatures do you use that setup in?

Most of my tours have had at least a reasonable chance of overnight lows near freezing. I think the coldest was in the mid teens and not really the norm, but I have had a fairly large number of nights on tour that dipped below freezing and a fair number in the 20s F.

For those conditions I have used a variety of sleeping bags, but my current favorite, a Mountain Hardwear Phantom 45, would have been fine in any of those conditions with a layer of clothing and thick socks for the coldest times.

I have toured in some extremely hot weather, but even on those hot trips there were cold nights at times. In the Sierras we had 110 F and frost both within a 48 hour period.

For me bag-less would be an option down to maybe the upper 40's or so. The thing is that I have never been on a trip where that would be a sure thing. Also even if it were a reasonably sure thing that the daytime temps would be warm and it might get slightly chilly at night, I have to wonder if my 17 ounce down bag would be lighter than the extra clothing, I'd need to sleep in without the bag.

Burton is talking about Eastern Canada, where it is in fact disgustingly hot in the summer and it doesn't cool down appreciably at night. I have not-so-fond memories of my undergrad days in Southern Ontario trying to sleep at night without A/C, where the only way to get comfortable was to lie naked under a wet sarong with a fan pointed on it for convective cooling action.

In the Rockies things are more reasonable, with nighttime temperatures typically in the 4-8 degree (C) range. I usually use a -3 down bag in the summertime and a -12 in the shoulder season. Sleeping bag ratings are "survival" ratings, and everyone has their individual "comfort" ratings. I usually add 10 degrees (C), or maybe 5 if I bundle up inside. Toques are also highly recommended, and I bring a thin one no matter what time of year.

Like staehpj1, I have experienced crazy temperature swings in the mountains and I would never try to tempt fate by going without a sleeping bag.