KC8QVO

First off, this is my first post. Hi.

Secondly, I am a backpacker with several years experience around the Appalachains and some trails around OH and KY. I have a family member that made the conversion to backpacking from long-distance bike riding. So, long story short, I am looking in to the conversion of going the route of bike touring (and backpacking).

I already have the "gear" side of things from my years backpacking (food, shelter, etc) so my area of interest here is strictly the transportation and luggage side of it - the bike and bags.

From what research I have done thus far bikes can get in to some big dollars. My boss does a lot of cross-training and the advice he threw my way was pretty much "you get what you pay for, don't go cheap". Well when we're talking thousands of dollars for a bike set up I have a lot to consider.

The Surly line-up looks good for the money - there is a heavy following for them.

I suppose I'll lead off with a few basic questions -

Brakes - disk or rim? Is there a disadvantage to the mechanics of a disk brake set up/reliability? Is there much of a drawback to the rim style in wet weather?

Handlebar, petal, and seat designs - are there certain designs that riders generally gravitate towards after miles on a trip? I wouldn't suppose a bike would feel the same around the block or at the start of a trip that it does after being on it for 100 miles. Are there any general themes to what direction people gravitate towards?

Steve

andrewclaus

If you're a backpacker like I am (my trail name is Garlic, I hiked the AT in '08), you may have your base weight down to a minimum. Generally, backpackers carry less than bicyclists since the load is not on wheels. You may be able to make the transition to light weight packing on a bike. In that case, you might not really need an expensive touring bike. When I transitioned to bike touring, all I needed was a set of rear panniers on a rear rack, nothing on front not even a handlebar bag. I could use a lighter frame, lighter wheels, lighter tires. I used a twenty-year old bike that took about $200 to refit with expensive tires and drive train parts. You might be able to retrofit an old road bike with a lower gear, for instance.

There are as many variables on biking as there are hiking--boots or trail runners, trekking poles or not, wool socks vs synthetic, etc. Most go through a few iterations to find what works. If you get the right saddle the first time, it's as rare as getting the perfect shoe the first time on a hiking trip. There are just as many variations in the loads people carry, too.

On my last long tour, if there was an "average" touring set-up it was a Surly bike with drop handle bars and end shifters, a Brooks saddle, five packs and a load of stuff on top of the racks, clipless pedals. I had none of that stuff (except the drop handlebars and two of the packs) and had a very fun and successful tour. You don't have to go the way everyone else is.

There were a very few trailers, only one recumbent, a few credit card tourers, and I think I only saw one other cyclist with only two packs. I noticed a few with simple platform pedals and walking shoes. You see a little bit of just about everything out there, as you do on the AT.

djb

I grew up doing canoe camping and such, so similar in terms of coming to bike touring from already being aware of careful packing and choosing of stuff to bring for camping.
I would say that its not necessary to spend a couple of thousand on a bike to get into bike touring, yes as with all endeavors its not often worth going for the truly inexpensive, but I wouldnt suggest getting a really expensive bike simply in case you find that biking isnt your thing.

on a truly basic level, many different types of bikes can be suited to touring where you will be carrying between 20 and 40lbs of stuff (a kinda rough estimate of what you'd be bringing along). Again, the advantage to being a back packer is being very much aware of not bringing too much extra crap you dont need, as you know more than bike touring how too much stuff needs to be humped if its in a back pack.

so for bikes, first important thing is that it fits you properly. Seat to handlebar distance, height diff of seat to handlebars, stuff that directly impacts how it will be comfortable for riding for many hours. If you hardly ever bike, it may be tough if you dont have a reference of how a bike fits you, plus being used to riding pure and simple (touching on how a seat should be positioned, being in shape leg wise etc)

the other angle is gearing, guys in bike stores will tell you that "sure, this bike is good for touring" I hear this up the ying yang, but in real life, many bikes dont have low enough gearing for loaded touring (we talking so that you can ride in mountainous areas)
a lot of young guys in bike stores who havent toured, or older guys who dont tour, or just plain any guys who just want to sell you a bike and dont give a rats patootee, will say that the gearing on x bike is fine for touring. There are bikes like this:

https://www.rei.com/product/807245/no...fari-bike-2013

that would be a great tourer for someone seeing if they like it. 900 U.S and REI has discounts and such.

or this at 1200 bucks

https://www.rei.com/product/816068/no...onee-bike-2013

numerous other good touring bikes out there, you will have to buy racks and panniers to put your stuff in, so you have to put out for those as well, but places like REI, Bike Nashbar etc have reasonably priced stuff for someone who is putting their toe in, so to speak.

dont forget, if you take care of stuff, you can resell it if you find you really dont like bike touring.

brakes, rim brakes work fine, disc brakes work fine. I've only used rim brakes and have had a lot of fun on all my trips, brake type wont make or break (sic) the enjoyment you have on a trip.

have fun reading as much as you can on the other various aspects of bike touring, but you gotta get your keester out there to get an idea of if you like it. Just make sure the bike fits you properly so that you are comfortable (and not just for an hour)

cheers

fietsbob

Used to packing a back pack and so have one.. Burly Travoy trailer seem well suited to putting the pack on it.

put the pack on straps out and you can wear the trailer to go upstairs and hold the bike in your hands.

KC8QVO

I don't have any experience with road bikes at all. I have a cheap mountain bike, but most of my biking has been BMX and Freestyle, no racing/competing. I used to ride real hard though - to the point I could hardly move, then got up the next day and did it all over again. When I was 18 I had a pretty bad accident, smashed my face. I started wearing a full-face helmet afterwards but my riding pretty much faded out the following 2-3 years. Getting on a road bike is going to be a completely different perspective. I'm starting from scratch.

That having been said - another question is regarding a complete bike package vs. building one piece by piece. I don't exactly want to spend the time putting one together, but I have a feeling that the end result will be better. I am more than capable/equipped to do it.

As for backpacking and pack weight - I am not a light-weight packer by any stretch of the imagination. Weight reduction is a constant battle. Though, I am of the mindset that I like to have equipment with me - a folding saw, fixed blade knifes, white gas stove, etc. I converted to a hammock a couple years ago for some weight savings, but in the end the comfort really was the bigger factor and the weight savings weren't as significant as I thought it would be (a couple lbs maybe, if that - still weight loss, though). Another hobby of mine is Amateur radio/ham radio and I always have a radio with me. I converted to an Elecraft KX3 radio as soon as they were available for order (and still waited about 7 months for it), but it made the reality of another 10lb weight loss if I am careful with it. On a weekend trip in warm weather I can get by with a 40lb pack weight. Cold weather and I'm at 50+, if I don't care about my weight much I'm at 60 (last trip out 2 weekends ago was a mile in/out, but below freezing both nights - I just packed what I wanted).

Fullcount

Welcome Steve,

I am going down the same path as you. Just starting to ride my bike again after thirty years. I bought an old Peugot, picked up a new Maya trailer and put some small bags on a front rack to balance out my load. Going to get out this weekend to try it out. I will let you know how it goes.

My total cost is still less than $800 on the set up. I went with the trailer because I am 220 lbs and did not want to put too much on the rear wheel and wanted the extra visibility that a trailer affords me.

You a hammock camper or a tent? I use a hammock on the trail, but thinking that a tent is better for stealth set ups.

downtube42

Steve, I'll reply to your direct questions first:

With disc brakes I suppose there's a slightly higher chance you could be stuck somewhere waiting for a part. I wouldn't sweat that, but other people feel differently. Good cantilever or V brakes on a rim with a good brake surface will have plenty of stopping power, even when wet. I don't think you can go wrong either way.

Most people tour with drop bars because of the number of hand positions and the ability to get low on a headwind day. Those are good reasons. There are 1000 styles of drop bars. You aren't going to get the perfect bar right off the bat. It's good if they are the proper width for your shoulders.

Saddles are highly subjective. Shape, material, width, fore/aft position, angle... all add up to either not fit well (commonly) or fit quite well (uncommonly). Pick something of decent construction quality that seems to fit, and give it a try.

Various and strong opinions abound regarding pedals. I like SPD shoes because of walkability, and I use an SPD pedal with a platform to spread out the load. I'm pleased with my switch from Look road pedals to SPD. When you get off the bike at a grocery store in smalltown USA, do you want to a) walk around gingerly on your cleats, b) pull out you cleat covers, snap them on, and walk around on covered cleats, c) change in to your Crocs, or d) walk around without issue in your SPD shoes?

Having said that... You can enjoyably tour on virtually any bike, although it should fit. You can use any kind of shoes/pedals, from hiking boots on platform pedals to road shoes on Look pedals.

Having said that... Ideally you want a bike with eyelets for fenders and racks, with clearance for wider tires and fenders, with long chainstays to prevent heel strike, with low enough gears to climb the inevitable hill at the end of a grueling headwind day, with high enough gears for a 20 MPH tailwind day, and with two if not three water bottle mounts.

If you want a decent though not perfect touring bike on a budget, a used steel rigid MTB can be a pretty good platform. Low gears, strong wheels, typically long chainstays, tons of tire & fender clearance, good brakes, eyelets can be found on some models. Drop bars can be added but you'll need to put some money into new shifters, and brake levers compatible with V-brakes. Specialized Hardrock comes to mind, pre suspension fork.

Two significant differences when going from backpacking to biking: 1) With respect to clothing, biking is like hiking on a very windy day, and 2) You have a machine to maintain.

An interesting thing about backpackers-turned-bikers: they don't consider a 15 mile hike to town for repairs to be a deal breaker.

djb

re buying a bike as is or building one up--a bike like the Novara Randonee has good quality parts and nice low gearing for if you do pack 60lbs on it, and it would function perfectly well.
I dunno, I see it as not wanting to suggest building up a bike, as 1-you dont have experience with parts etc and 2- if you get into listening to someone who tells you that you need the top level parts, it'll cost a heck of a lot more, and in the end, you might find that bike touring isnt your thing.

you are going to get opinions all over the place on an internet forum, or in a bike store. Its up to you how much you can or want to spend, but you still have to actually do the activity to see if you like it, so it will be up to you to judge the amount you spend. Main thing is that you get a bike that is competent for what you want to do, how much you will carry plus your weight and all that stuff.

ask more specifics , feel free, but as mentioned, you'll get all kinds of diff opinions.....

TheReal Houdini

As a point of reference, I bought a Novara Safari for $900 and love it. Then I spent nearly as much adding a front rack, panniers, generator lighting, handlebar bag, disk brakes, suspended leather saddle, fenders, water bottle cages, and a speedometer (odometer really). I already had pedals, shoes, helmet, and cycling clothing and backpacking gear. In each case I bought pretty much the least expensive item that had all the features I wanted. If I had been willing to compromise on fit and features I could have spent less, but like my backpacking stuff, I expect to get many years, if not decades, of use from good quality equipment and am fortunate enough to be able to afford it.

LeeG

Brakes don't matter, they should work and you should know how to adjust them just like the derailleurs.
i like drop bars but honestly the biggest challenge will be getting comfortable on the bike. That may take a few weeks, months or a year. Learn how to set up your seat to pedal distance then after that constant start playing with different reach and height adjustments for the bars. You might hit it right from day one or go through three stems before the right one, then you might change it again in another year.


Don't bother building up from parts. There are enough good packages. Try and nail down how much you're going to carry and hopefully there's a bike shop out there that can put weighted panniers on the bike to simulate a load.

it's easy to think that the choices are critical because there are so many but they aren't.

KC8QVO

I am eyeballing the Surley Disk Trucker package bike. Does anyone have any thoughts? A local dealer quoted me $1275. That seems reasonable. Someone else I know with a LHT got theirs for $1100, so $175 difference for the brake difference.

Another thought is wheel size. 26" or 700c?

djb

both 26 and 700 are fine, all kinds of good range of tires to be had for both.
26 inch stuff (tires, spokes, rims) is easier to find if you plan to go out of quote First World unquote areas. If not, 700 can be found easily in the States, Canada, Europe.

How tall are you and what size frame would you be looking at? I ask as a really large bike frame might look funny to you with 26 in. wheels

going back to how much you figure you will carry, a Surly Trucker will handle a heavy load very well. As others have mentioned in other threads, even if you decide you dont like bike touring, if its in good shape, you can easily sell it at a good price.

kstephens

djb pretty much summed up wheel size. Four all around touring, I would prefer a 26. However, I needed a 60 cm frame LHT and, to me, that size looked odd with the 26 wheels. I went with the 700c size, strictly for appearance. I also don't plan to tour outside of North america for now.

KC8QVO

If it helps any, I'm 5'10" and 150lbs. I just realized there is a lot more to the fitting process than wheel size. Maybe I should make a trip to the bike store and do some "fitting". I have no idea what frame size or crank length I need. I don't suppose the crank length of my BMX bikes would equate well to a road bike because they are two totally different applications. I do know the crank on my mountain bike is entirely too short for me. My freestyle bike might be a bit long, but it feels great comparatively.

I don't tend to let things go that I get so I don't imagine I'll be selling what I get bike-wise here if it doesn't really grab me. My other bikes haven't had much of a work-out in several years but I'd never sell them.

bradtx

KC8QVO, Welcome to the forum.

Basically I'm answering this as if I were to try backpacking, I don't need all of the finer points, just yet anyways. The first consideration is how much weight is to be carried. Generally an expedition level touring bike is designed for +40 lbs. of baggage, many cycle cross bikes, another favorite for tourers, are generally good for up to 40 lbs., there is some overlap of course. Since this is your first road bike of any style, I suggest buying a complete bike, even a good preowned unit. The bike HAS to fit so be careful and perhaps your co-worker can lend a hand. Once you have the bike and you know what needs to be done, you can modify and fine tune it it so that it suits you. Trailers often are a love/hate debate item, but there is a place for them and you can pull one with most any bicycle.

Brad

PS Search this forum for backpacking, backpacker.

djb

At your height, the frame size will probably be about a 54cm (there's a Surly owners forum made graph showing peoples height and the frame size they got, saw it once referenced somewhere on this forum, cant recall where) and so with 26 in wheels, it wont look funny like a 60cm frame as mentioned.
People say that 26 in. wheels are a bit stronger than 700c, but a well built wheel, enough spokes, good tensions in spokes, is always going to be better than a not so well built wheel. Truckers have been sold now for a while, and the wheelsets are most likely pretty good on both sizes, so even stock they will work well. Lots of people certainly do lots of touring on them.

I wouldnt worry about crank lengths too much, the lengths that come with the size frame for your height will be perfectly fine. I'd worry more about carrying too much crap on your bike, that you will feel for real.

KC8QVO

Thanks for all the info. That really helps.

This might be getting closer, still no chart found:
https://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...haul%20trucker

Edit: Found it

googledocs chart:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/...XcHZrQ3c#gid=0

KC8QVO

I did some digging in to that chart in my previous post (second link). Taking my dimensions in to account - 178cm height, ~80cm PBH - a 50-58cm frame is the range I'm at.

Based off PBH the range is 50-52. Based off height the range is 52-58.

Any thoughts? Something tells me the lower end of the scale would be better. Is there any rule of thumb that you have for selecting your own frame sizes?

djb

all I can say is that on my drop bar bike, a Specialzed Tricross, the distance from the middle of the seat (where the middle of the seatpost goes up) to the front of the straight bars (closest to seat) is about 65cm (taking a measuring tape from seat top along to start of bars).
Top tube is marked as being 54.5cm on the frame. stem is the stock one, 100mm.

for my height, its often said that a 56 would be better, but this one fits me very well.

your mileage will vary as your body is shaped differently, unless we were separated twins at birth, which is unlikely (although my parents never explained how they afforded that brand new Ford Falcon back in the 60s.....)

voj112

Go to a bike store that stocks LHT's and try a variety of sizes. It's very risky for someone to choose a well-fitting frame based on internet research and little or no long distance riding experience. You need to ride a bike for hours and hours to determine all your body's fit related nuances, whether your arms, legs, torso is/are disproportionate in any way.

For example, I'm 5'11", ~181 cm, and my current 56 cm bike is actually too big. More precisely the top tube is like 2 cm too long. I have the shortest stem installed and it's still slightly too long. I got the bike for free so no big deal, but if I'd have bought it, that would suck... Based on internet research, someone who is 5'11" should be fine on a 56 cm bike, but that is true only for a perfectly proportioned person.

If you can't ride an LHT, try a different bike that fits you and determine it's effective top tube length, then buy an LHT with that same length. Be sure the different bike you are trying has drop bars, as the fit for a bike with other types of bars will be a little different. I focus only on the effective top tube length because if you get that right, every other measurement will be right too. That's my rule of thumb.

There's so much to be said about fit and comfort on a bike, but you'll begin to get it only after long days in the saddle.

djb

ps, I have read a few times that LHTs are a bit longer for a given frame size than other bikes, so you might want to look into that or at least see if that is the case.

As voj guy says, your body porportions come into play, at 5'10.5 I have longer legs than torso, so that probably explains why I fit better on a shorter frame than "the book" says is for my height

Mississauga feller, for your bike, one thing you could do is to measure the drop bars "reach" (distance from beginning of bars to end of curved part) as there are drop bars that are a couple of cms shorter than others. This wont help the distance to the flat part of the bars, but it would bring the hoods closer to you by a few cms--could make all the difference.

here is a US site that has these "shallower" bars, someone put this link up on a recent thread about something, I saved it as they are nice looking bars being shorter, and cheap too (but we would have to pay cross border fees probably)

https://www.jensonusa.com/!tahALwBZOI...medium=organic

KC8QVO

Thanks for all the info. I figure if I get a complete bike with the right frame sizing I can tweak everything else over time if need-be, so that is my concentration point (and wheel size to go along with it). I'm not too worried about the handlebar design/length/height.

I know someone with a LHT that I might meet up with on Sunday. Hes saying it is a 54 or 56cm frame, but I'm not sure because he is several inches shorter than I am. He did mention he wanted a bike that rode higher, though, so it may be that big. I know it has the 700c wheels if that means much.

In any event, that will be a good starting place so I have a perspective. My step dad has a cannondale road bike that was converted from more of a race bike to a street bike - took off the drop bars, has bigger tread tires, etc. It is set up to be more comfortable than a fast, sleek rider. I can check its dimensions and see how it compares too.

bradtx

Steve, When it comes to fitment, don't go by the old idea that you need a couple of inches of stand over clearance when straddling the bicycle. Good fitment has to do with riding the bike. I'm long waisted for my height and for me a well fitting bike has little to no stand over clearance. Good luck with the two bikes WRT determining your size range.

Brad

KC8QVO

I went to 4 bike stores today. Not one of the stores I went to knew a whole lot about bike touring = loading down with panniers and riding off for a few days. They were all swimming in bike specs and attachment points, without much working knowledge. It seems of the bike crowd the true touring group is a thin fragment of a percent of the general biking community Though, a couple of the stores I went to zeroed in on the Surley lineup, namely the LHT and Crosscheck. I had one store point me towards a Trek 520, then back off saying it isn't going to handle some rougher terrain (dirt and/or gravel roads).

I rode 2 56cm frames and a 54cm frame. If I can dial in the seat height to match my body/leg length to the petals and adjust the handlebars for the right posture I can make either one work. I don't see any preference between the two developing.

Something that I did look in to a little was handlebar designs. The first store was showing me some cycle-cross bikes that had straight bars - specialized Sirrus lineup and tricross lineup. The sirrus elite disk is what caught my attention there. I like the set up. Having no option of drop style bars though I think is a drawback, but they can be changed later. The Tricross Comp Disk is another option.

I did get a chance to ride a Surley Crosscheck in 56mm. This style bike I can work with too. However, I am a little unsure about the stock gearing. When I was test riding I only rode on flat parking lots unloaded. The bikes all seemed to have way too many low-range gears. The Crosscheck was the only one I felt was in tune better with my natural petal stroke on that surface/terrain. I felt like I had a surplus of low range gears, still, but I had room to get up and go. None of the other gear sets let me feel like I was in-range. Again, this is all on flat asphalt so my perspective is surely not what it should be loaded on the open trail/road.

djb

the bikes you mention are great bikes (I own a Tricross) but will not be ideal for numerous reasons if you intend to slap 60lbs on them and tour.

as for gearing, you will never know what its like to ride a heavily loaded bike up a long steep hill until you actually do it, until then, the suggestions we can give about gearing just wont have real meaning. Unloaded your pedal stroke may feel fine, or you may feel you have too many low gears....put 40, 50, 60lbs on and go up a good long hill and things will be different.

a Trek 520 can be fine on dirt trails, you just have to put wider tires on. A LHT will work fine right off with weight, unloaded it wont be as nippy feeling as the bikes youve mentioned.

at some point, you will just have to decide where your priorities are, buy a bike and see how it is for what you will realistically do. You may find you love X bike, if not, you'll learn and then get Y bike.

good luck figuring stuff out, and have fun, that is the whole idea.