Brooks fitting problem
 

Hi! Yet Another Brooks Question!

I usually ride on a Selle Italia Flite or Selle Italia Randonneur (same geometry but more flexy, more comfortable imho). They do fit well, absolutely no chaffing and decent comfort. Yet my sit bones do not feel too happy after some distance, to say the least.

The owner on the LBS - who happens to be a friend - is a big proponent of Brooks saddles. I had the pleasure to ride his personal Moulton with a Brooks Swift on it a few months ago. Results were mixed: my sit bones felt instantly happy (despite the saddle not being really broken in, if at all) while my inner thighs went rubbing agains the skived skirts very badly. I ended up in blood in less than 20km - but my sitbones were perfect.

I'm building my new bike so we spoke again about Brooks and the skirt problem I had. I was looking at the B17 Pre-Aged - for the extra suppleness and the lace to avoid chaffing on the thighs. Then he handed me a solution from under the counter - an used Flyer that had seen 2 previous users that had taken care of suffering for me. We made holes in the skirts, laced and properly tensioned the saddle, and I'm riding it now.

The good: the leather is insanely supple and my sitbones never have been as happy. My thighs are not rubbing at all (seems that even if I did not lace the skirts it would fit well, the B17 having longer skirts than the Swift).

The bad: The B17 has an hammock/banana shape. While I tend to slip forward (not that much), the nose (well, before the nose, actually) goes up and presses again my perinea - not to mention the nose comes a tad too close to my balls... Handlebars about level with saddle (slightly lower, but will be slightly higher on hoods/slightly lower on drops on my new tourer). The saddle also seems too small for me - it seems there is ONE correct position but I can't sit more towards the rear before hitting the metal structure, or more toward the frond before sitting on my perinea.

What would be your advice? What to do? Some adjustments to make? Another Brooks that might fit? Which one?
I'd be very interested in an outline drawing of the different brooks...

Thank you,
Nicolas

Tip the nose of the saddle UP.

Yeah, I know that might not make sense at first, but give it a try.

Have a look at the Century Bicycles thread in the Long Distance forum ... there are lots of bicycles in that collection with Brooks saddles. Have a look at the tilt of the saddles.

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...tury-bicycle(s)

You'll want to tightly lace the saddle to minimize the hammock effect. A properly laced B17 shouldn't look like a hammock. Also check out the Brooks Pro (about $90). It's a little narrower than the B17, but is very resistant to sagging. Also lace the Pro per my guide.

Use Harbor Freight P/N 97715 (5/64" setting) to punch holes. Keep tool perpendicular to edge of saddle. 0.425" from bottom edge of flaps, and 0.300" spacing with 14 evenly spaced holes . First hole 3.5" from the nose of the saddle.

Tilt the nose up until your sit bones are positioned at the widest part of the saddle. The height difference between the nose and rear of the saddle should be between 1/4" and 7/8". Use the absolute minimum amount of tilt to avoid sliding into the front of the saddle.

Hip / lower lumbar bend; keeps my hips tilted up , though the rest of my spine is tilted forward.

Tensioned leather saddles sag and "hammock" faster and to a greater extent than modern "plastic" saddles. This is simply because there's nothing but a thick piece of cowhide under tension to resist the sag. Modern saddles employ a plastic or CF frame to support the rider, with padding and leather or similar material on top. There's just more saddle in a modern plastic saddle to resist sag.

OP, you should avoid Brooks if you don't like sag, and prefer a flat saddle so that you can shift weigh forwards and rearwards to alleviate pressure points. I own Flite and B17 saddles, and the Flite is much better at resisting sag, and more comfortable long term. Brooks saddles are hard as a rock and uncomfortable when new, then they soften up a little and work pretty good, then soon after they start to sag, at which point they become uncomfortable and nearly useless to me.

What is your riding position? Reason I ask is that I ride a Brooks on my trekking bike and love it. It is tilted up a bit but I ride that bike in much more of an upright position. When I was searching for the perfect saddle for my road bike I swapped the brooks to give it a try. Sit bones were comfy but the lower riding position was miserable. If I tilted the seat down I slid off, tilted back was to much presssure. I just could not make it work for a road riding position. Still my favorite for the trekking bike though.

I found that I had my saddle, B17, a touch too high. I dropped it a slight bit and I no longer got the pressure. I am quite happy now.

Thank you for your answers. I'll fiddle with saddle positioning more to see if I can get it to work, otherwiser, I'll try some other brooks.
Still riding it, and I am completely sold on the leather saddle thing for sit bones comfort. That thing just is incredible.

The tilt thing is tricky. I had mine tilted a bit for a while. I started noticing perineal pressure that was turning to pain. I leveled the saddle which immediately relieved my discomfort. Then I felt like I was slipping forward. I started tilting back up again with the goal of as little rise in the nose as I could get away with. Feels great now.

Okay, been tweaking the saddle for more than a month now.

- Lacing the saddle improved, but not enough.
- Tilt. Up and I get too much pressure. Down I slide forward. Flat: Both at the same time.
- Shape is like I'd want to sit on my perineum....
- The more I tighten (with the nose screw) the saddle the better it gets. But there obviously are limits, and I'm about to run out of screw in 1cm... And extreme tension makes a kind of bulge in the middle?
- That Flyer truly is sit bone heaven though.
- I can only find ONE position, no moving around on the Brooks saddles?
- Endlessly slipping forward killed my wrists

Posture: I have my bars 2cm lower than saddle (going from riser to trekking bars) (don't like the bars. Will go to flat bars with Ergon GP5 and inboard Spinaci bar ends). Will raise them a little, and buy a Ritchey adjustable stem, to be able to adjust them to level or slightly higher. For road touring long distance with some bad roads/gravel involved. Revived another bike that has a pretty close resulting geometry but bars higher and saddle further back (can't put the Flyer back more), and found I way preferred it.

I could though try a Brooks Swift with much better chance. It was barely broken in (seen a few hundred miles at most) but I didn't found it that hard? (way harder than the worn-out Flyer sure, but I liked it.). This time, properly positioning the saddle avoided any chaffing. I felt some sit bones "discomfort", but no real pain (while on my Italia, it actually is pain). But I still had a little bit of perineum pressure. It still is a little hammocky.

How do the Team Pro and Swift compare? I find I'd want the flattest, least hammocky saddle.
Will, in the course of a 5000km tour rain or (and) shine, a Brooks Swift develop more sag?
Or maybe do you think leather saddles just are not the right shape for me?
Are there Brooks saddles that would allow me to have several butt positions? Even the Swift didn't seem that great in this regard - you could shift around a little, but not too much.

I fear Seeker333 was right and technically accurate. Which means I have to hunt for a new saddle, one month before leaving...

Could you recommend modern saddles that would rely on flex like a brooks and not padding, but offer a flat shape? Italias are meant to flex, but I'd like more flexy. Do carbon shells flex more than "plastic" shells? Any opinion on (excessively pricey) Ergon saddles?

Thank you,
Nicolas

Do you have your seat far enough back? If you are back far enough, the weight on your hands will decrease, you will be more balanced. You will be able to take your hands off the bars without falling forward. It doesn't take a big difference to accomplish this.

I will still say I had to drop the height slightly with my Brooks. Once I did it was extremely comfortable and no more pain in the soft parts. Mine is not laced. There is a slight possibility that the lacing is actually making matters worse for you since it makes the saddle flex less. This may be contributing to the pain in the soft parts.

Perhaps you need a seat post with more setback.. I ran out of rail adjustment range on my B17.

Sitting on the back rivets was where my butt wanted to be..

( I chose to keep the Zero setback seat post , as it was a nice Spring suspension one, shed the B17 instead.)

I won't find a seatpost with more setback, unfortunately. 73 or 74° seat tube, 90s MTB frame (long for a road bike, short for an MTB). Something like 3 cm seatback it would seem. I would like to go to a 2-bolt seatpost for finer adjustments but it only exists with 0 setback for a 27.0 seatpost (not 27.2... I want to kill the guy who made that stupid design choice).

As far as fit, It was good with my previous saddle (selle italia "randonneur", not in the catalog... a less padded (but with softer padding) Flite, a tiny tiny bit more curved, but a very flexible shell. But sit bones comfort was not up to Brooks by a very far margin, shorts or no shorts. Flite kills my sit bones, but is king for multi positions. The shell does not flex for a second and it relies on padding: I don't like it.) But I need to bring the handlebars closer and a bit higher to accomodate the short rails of the Brooks, my previous saddle was a good 2cm further back. Putting the Brooks further back would kill me as it would mean leaning more, thus putting more pressure on the perineum area. And the Brooks it already too small in the sitting area, I'd like to sit on the rivets to alleviate pressure on my perinea...

Weight either has to go to the pedals, hands, sit bones or soft parts anyway. I try to put in on the pedals but after some time... It ends up somewhere else.

I was really wondering if a Swift or Swallow could keep, **mid-term (>5000km MINIMUM)**, a non hammocky shape (weight 150lb/71kg, average fitness) and if any Brooks could offer "multiple" positions, like a cm front or back, or if their point was to be "locked" in a "sweet spot" by design...

Or if a plastic saddle could mimic the flex of a Brooks (more the Swift than the Flyer I find way too soft). Will have a look tomorrow at Fizik Arione/Antares saddles, but their "wing flex" seems good on paper... But I see on video reviews the guy flexing it with hands and I just think "is that what he calls flexing?". My Italia flexes more. Rido R2 saddle seems to be made of a supple shell, but also lots of padding. Their Rlt is meant to be "hard". Don't want that. And I fear that, as good as making a big bump for the sit bones seems good, it would utilmately mean i'd want to slide on it, and rest on my crotch.

And if Brooks had any chance, what were the differences between a Swallow and Swift. Even the Team Pro seems too hammocky for me. And the Flyer/B17 is too large anyway, imho, the Swift already fits me way better. Well, if there is something like a flat leather saddle that sags very minimally...

Thanks,
Nicolas

I have a Swift and B17 imperial, the former on my commuting bike and the latter on my touring bike. The Swift has around 5K km on it and has become more comfortable as it has aged. It has no sag on it at all but I would not like to use it for touring (it is not that comfortable for long periods on the bike). The B17 has a lot of sag. I have tensioned it once but I do not wish to repeat this as I do not wish it to stretch too much. I live with the sag as it is not causing problems and is very comfortable for touring. The B17 has shaped itself well to my rear but the Swift has not shaped noticeably but it has become more comfortable.

I heard you can lace them from the bottom. I know it means cutting wholes in the leather but I heard it works to fix the sag.

Already done...

Hm, actually sounds like a very positive point for me for the Swift. I could not imagine touring with the Flyer (B17 shape). Anything longer than 10 km feels like torture because it molds too much, it is too soft. But every butt is different! Upon closer inspection of pictures it would seem like the Swallow is too hammocky and it is touted as a "supple" saddle, which is about the last thing I'd want.

Have you tried Peter White for a seatpost? He got some from Nitto in 27. I'm not sure if he still has any but he got some of the Crystal Fellow S-65 seatposts which, although they aren't a two bolt seatpost, they are a true micro adjust seatpost. http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/seatposts.asp

There is also Ritchey Design whith 25mm of offset. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003RLK3LU/...SIN=B003RLK3LU Unfortunately it doesn't look to be a microadjust. It has two bolts but not where they will help adjust. :rolleyes:



I still believe the lacing may be making it too inflexible causing pain. I struggled with mine for a while too and found it was a tad too high, maybe a centimeter. That centimeter made all the difference in the world.

OP, maybe you should cut your losses and revisit Selle Italia saddles. I used a Flite for many years, tried a B17 and others, now I'm back on the Flite.

Used Brooks saddles sell pretty fast on eBay. I'd never buy a used one off eBay since sag doesn't photograph well.

Have you looked at the Selle Anatomica's? I think that might be the answer you are looking for.

Great saddle, although they tend to sag more than a B17 and do so more quickly. Some report feeling the edges around the cutout and others report chaffing around the edges, something the OP had issues with. Of course others report pure saddle nirvana.

Thanks all.
The lacing could NOT have made the saddle too inflexible, it already is too much for me! And if it is flexibility in the perineal area... No matter how supple, I don't want to bend cowhide with this part of my body! It would seem I'm very sensitive in this area.

Seeker333, I think you're getting more and more points...
I rebuilt my accidented bike (Swift folding bike) on which I had left my Flite (Gel Flow) on. I switched to another Italia on my main bike, built like the SLR but more supple casing, found it more comfortable. Having rebuilt the bike, I rode it... With the Flite. Why does it feel pretty nice now? A bit of sit bones discomfort sure, but it ends there, no pain, no pressure where I wouldn't want it, a wide range of positions to sit on, not slipping so I'd sit on my crotch... Maybe having lost weight helped.

I went to the lbs (hum, not the one I sometimes work for, he exclusively sells Brooks - almost entire line- and very low end large comfort saddles) to have a look at the Fizik Arione and other Italias. I won't buy another Italia, too close the ones I already have. And the Flex-Wing in the Arione? That? Flex? Italias flex more. They are hard as rock, but their shape at the rear is wonderful if you want more sitting positions.

It would seem that if a Brooks could fit, it would be the Swift (don't have a Swallow at the shop). And I absolutely don't care for it being "hard", I don't find Brooks saddles to be hard except on the shelf... That Swift hasn't seen 300 miles breaking in (I'd even say it has seen less) and it has support yes, but is not hard. Am gonna pay the boss a good bottle of wine and borrow is saddle for a few rides, see how it compares against my Italia.

Selle Anatomica are touted as more supple. No way for me.

Both seem good, Swift seems from memory a bit more comfortable on the sit bones, but I think the extra positions offered by the Flite may make me leave with the Flite. Which would be great: if I can get a Swift for a very reasonable cost, the Flite would be... free.

I am one of those, I had chaffing while using my B17 yet found the chaffing of the Selle Anatomica worse. I have solved the chaffing on the B17 by lacing as furballi suggested. I have also laced my Selle since then, it has improved it's problem as well. Having said that, I prefer my B 17 overall

Hmm. Gave the flite some more try. Perfect for more positions and excellent posture, but 50 km later, my sit bones did hurt. Though, it is a pain that does not last, which is a sign of no damage. While perineum pressure is more dangerous.

Will try the Swift more and see if it will do the trick.