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Applying lower gears to my ride

Old 07-31-13, 11:10 PM
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Applying lower gears to my ride

Hello all,

I'm hoping I could get some suggestions what hardware I should start looking for on my bike. The bike I'm working on is a Nashbar X Frame Cyclocross bike that I put together. I'm pretty happy with how all the parts are working together, but I'm needing to "update" my gearing. What I have is 700x35 knobby tires, with an Ultegra 50/34 crank, with an Ultegra 11-27 9sp cassette. What I want is lower gearing and I'm thinking I should go with changing the derailleur and the cassette. The only thing is I'm a bit lost on what I should be looking for. I was able to put the bike together by knowing the top three versions of Shimano equipment for road bikes, 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace. The thing is I don't really have a clue what the top three is for MTB gearing. This is assuming I want to use Shimano equipment btw. I also am going to need to upgrade my derailleur and I'm falling into the same predicament there too. I don't know what are the "top three" in MTB derailleurs.

I do feel I managed to squeak into this Touring forum cause my bike does have touring eyelets for a rear rack, and I do currently have a seatpost rack that would not be bad for light weight touring. I also do want to do more "hardcore" touring somewhere down the line.

Hopefully I can find some helpful tips on what I'm wanting to do here. BTW, with my current gearing I feel like most of the gears used are the ones from the middle to my lower gears and of course both rings up front. What isn't being used hardly at all are the mid to the higher gearing.

Higher gear = smaller cog. Sorry for the lack of skills on being able to explain this better.

Any and all replies are most welcomed and appreciated.
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Old 07-31-13, 11:19 PM
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seems like you posted this before , didnt like the other answers?

crank is 34t minimum sticking a cassette with a 34t big cog is as if the rear wheel was in a unicycle. 1:1

[except for the freewheel]

lower than that .. buy a new triple crank hire a shop to do the job if over your experience base ,, so it will work when done ..

check out some math charts to learn the ratio math so the gear size has meaning.


my derailleur bike for touring: 50 40,24 triple i just used a 7 speed freewheel 13~34t .. worked for 25 years +..
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Old 07-31-13, 11:32 PM
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XTR, XT and LX is the top to bottom hierarchy for Shimano MTB group sets. For touring purposes, it is suggested to stick with XT and LX. I understand that sometimes there could be incompatibility issues between road and MTB components (some road shifters with mtb derailleurs), but I believe those apply mostly to 10 speeds. You might also want to look into an inexpensive triple crankset. Shimano's M590 (26, 36, 48T) is quite popular among many of us here. It costs only about $100.
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Old 07-31-13, 11:35 PM
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I can climb most hills on my road bike with 34-25, but my bike weighs 7.7kg. I'm just an average climber. A SHIMANO CS-HG61 12-36 9-Speed Bike Cassette would be a god send. You mentioned light touring, so may be you could cut it.
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Old 08-01-13, 06:59 AM
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User1, There's three ways to alter gearing, all will likely require a mountain bike group's RD or at the minimum a long cage Ultegra RD. First is just changing the rear cassette to one that more closely fits your needs. Most of the 9S mountain cassettes still have an 11 or 12T top gear, so no help there, but a major increase in the bottom gears are available. The second method will be to replace your compact double with a compact road or mountain triple. A mountain triple will make the top gears of a mountain cassette more usable. This can be more expensive if you are using an integrated shifter that isn't capable of also shifting a triple (some are). The third method is the combination of 1 and 2.

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Old 08-01-13, 07:49 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Pringle
XTR, XT and LX is the top to bottom hierarchy for Shimano MTB group sets. For touring purposes, it is suggested to stick with XT and LX. I understand that sometimes there could be incompatibility issues between road and MTB components (some road shifters with mtb derailleurs), but I believe those apply mostly to 10 speeds. You might also want to look into an inexpensive triple crankset. Shimano's M590 (26, 36, 48T) is quite popular among many of us here. It costs only about $100.
Unfortunately, 10 speed (Dyanasys) Shimano mountain bike stuff is incompatible with any other equipment. If you are going to build a flat bar touring bike, this is probably not a problem but if you are going to use road bars and road shifters, you'll have to go a different route. The other unfortunate thing about Shimano is that road bike stuff is limited to 29 teeth on the long cage rear derailers. You might be able to make a 32 tooth cog on a cassette work but it's fiddly and there should be a lot of emphasis on the "might" part.

If you can find old 9 speed Shimano mountain bike equipment, the rear derailer works beautifully with STI shifters. The front doesn't.

For a front derailed in either road and mountain, I would suggest going with the lower end equipment, i.e. Tiagra or LX. The high end offerings in either group set have highly sculpted side plates and are rather narrow. This makes set up more difficult. You will probably have rubbing in some gears...and some pretty common ones at that...no matter how well you tune them. The cheaper mountain and road front derailers have less sculpting and the distance between the plates is greater. This makes them more forgiving and easier to set up so that they don't rub in more gear combinations.

If I were building a flat bar bike, I wouldn't even use Shimano front derailers of any kind. I'd go with a Sram. The Sram X9 is a far superior front derailer to anything that Shimano has to offer. I haven't tried to pair it with an STI but it might be worth a look.

Since Shimano has deemed it necessary to leave us touring bicyclists in the lurch, Microshift might be the way to go for touring derailers that would work with 9 and 10 speed STI shifters while still having enough range for a 32, 34 or 36 tooth cog.
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Old 08-01-13, 08:23 AM
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Originally Posted by User1
Hello all,

I'm hoping I could get some suggestions what hardware I should start looking for on my bike. The bike I'm working on is a Nashbar X Frame Cyclocross bike that I put together. I'm pretty happy with how all the parts are working together, but I'm needing to "update" my gearing. What I have is 700x35 knobby tires, with an Ultegra 50/34 crank, with an Ultegra 11-27 9sp cassette. What I want is lower gearing and I'm thinking I should go with changing the derailleur and the cassette. The only thing is I'm a bit lost on what I should be looking for. I was able to put the bike together by knowing the top three versions of Shimano equipment for road bikes, 105, Ultegra, and Dura Ace. The thing is I don't really have a clue what the top three is for MTB gearing. This is assuming I want to use Shimano equipment btw. I also am going to need to upgrade my derailleur and I'm falling into the same predicament there too. I don't know what are the "top three" in MTB derailleurs.

I do feel I managed to squeak into this Touring forum cause my bike does have touring eyelets for a rear rack, and I do currently have a seatpost rack that would not be bad for light weight touring. I also do want to do more "hardcore" touring somewhere down the line.

Hopefully I can find some helpful tips on what I'm wanting to do here. BTW, with my current gearing I feel like most of the gears used are the ones from the middle to my lower gears and of course both rings up front. What isn't being used hardly at all are the mid to the higher gearing.

Higher gear = smaller cog. Sorry for the lack of skills on being able to explain this better.

Any and all replies are most welcomed and appreciated.
Top three MTB derailleurs are XTR, XT and LX. It's getting harder to buy a 9 speed MTB derailleur of the top 3 unless you happen to find a NOS. 10 speed Dynasys/Shadow derailleur WILL NOT work with a 9 speed road shifter. The only new 9 speed derailleur that you can buy off the shelf nowadays is Deore. Shimano Tiagra rear derailleur can take up to 30T rear and max of 32T. Some older Ultegra can take up to 32T, but is not recommended. If you are touring, you might consider replacing the rear with a Deore long cage derailleur and a 11-34 9 speed cassette. There is nothing wrong with a Deore derailleur. It's reliable for touring and had been used by a number of famous cycle tourists in god forsaken places.

If you are consistently on the middle of the cogs, then I suggest you lower your 50T to something like a 46T and keep the 34T. 46T will allow you to use more of the smaller cogs.

Last edited by pacificcyclist; 08-01-13 at 08:31 AM.
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Old 08-01-13, 08:27 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Unfortunately, 10 speed (Dyanasys) Shimano mountain bike stuff is incompatible with any other equipment. If you are going to build a flat bar touring bike, this is probably not a problem but if you are going to use road bars and road shifters, you'll have to go a different route. The other unfortunate thing about Shimano is that road bike stuff is limited to 29 teeth on the long cage rear derailers. You might be able to make a 32 tooth cog on a cassette work but it's fiddly and there should be a lot of emphasis on the "might" part.

If you can find old 9 speed Shimano mountain bike equipment, the rear derailer works beautifully with STI shifters. The front doesn't.

For a front derailed in either road and mountain, I would suggest going with the lower end equipment, i.e. Tiagra or LX. The high end offerings in either group set have highly sculpted side plates and are rather narrow. This makes set up more difficult. You will probably have rubbing in some gears...and some pretty common ones at that...no matter how well you tune them. The cheaper mountain and road front derailers have less sculpting and the distance between the plates is greater. This makes them more forgiving and easier to set up so that they don't rub in more gear combinations.

If I were building a flat bar bike, I wouldn't even use Shimano front derailers of any kind. I'd go with a Sram. The Sram X9 is a far superior front derailer to anything that Shimano has to offer. I haven't tried to pair it with an STI but it might be worth a look.

Since Shimano has deemed it necessary to leave us touring bicyclists in the lurch, Microshift might be the way to go for touring derailers that would work with 9 and 10 speed STI shifters while still having enough range for a 32, 34 or 36 tooth cog.
Actually, the Shimano Dynasys 10 speed cassette works with 10 speed STI shifters. It is the 10 speed rear derailleur that has a different pull ratio. You can make a 10 speed STI shifter shift perfectly with a 10 speed SLX cassette using a 9 speed rear derailleur with an extended B-screw to clear 36T. I have just the system here working PERFECTLY on my cross touring bike.

You're right. In terms of touring and lowering gear, SRAM really has the niche in having road shifters work with their mountain gearing perfectly. However, if one is willing to work with lower end components like Tiagra and LX, one can make a high end 10 speed shifting system work very nicely as I had done. Microshift stuff sucks btw..

I also have a SRAM X9 system on my Dahon Mu SL flat bar folding touring bike. To be honest, it's really nothing special compared to my Tiagra which does shift the same. Now, their 10 speed SRAM X0 is something else!
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Old 08-01-13, 08:49 AM
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I'd consider a sugino triple, like xd600 with all-alumnium rings. You can use a shimano cx-70 derailleur to shift it if you have STI levers and want to stick with ultegra-level parts. I'd opt for a tiagra to save a few bucks though. If you have a long cage ultegra you might not have to change the rear derailleur or cassette and the sugino triple should give you a bigger range of useable gears. 46-11 is a pretty big gear and 24-29 should get you up most hills without excessive amounts of work. The sugino cranks come with a variety of rings and finishes though so check that you get the gears you want as it seems to vary by distributor and model year.
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Old 08-01-13, 08:50 AM
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Originally Posted by pacificcyclist
Actually, the Shimano Dynasys 10 speed cassette works with 10 speed STI shifters. It is the 10 speed rear derailleur that has a different pull ratio. You can make a 10 speed STI shifter shift perfectly with a 10 speed SLX cassette using a 9 speed rear derailleur with an extended B-screw to clear 36T. I have just the system here working PERFECTLY on my cross touring bike.

You're right. In terms of touring and lowering gear, SRAM really has the niche in having road shifters work with their mountain gearing perfectly. However, if one is willing to work with lower end components like Tiagra and LX, one can make a high end 10 speed shifting system work very nicely as I had done. Microshift stuff sucks btw..

I also have a SRAM X9 system on my Dahon Mu SL flat bar folding touring bike. To be honest, it's really nothing special compared to my Tiagra which does shift the same. Now, their 10 speed SRAM X0 is something else!
Shimano didn't monkey with the cassette and I don't consider it to be part of the Dynasys system...is that redundant? A 10 speed cassette is still a 10 speed cassette. Just wait until next year, however I'm sure they have something in the works to make their stuff completely incompatible with any previous equipment.

I have X9 and X0 (both 9 speed) on 4 bikes. I like it a lot. I find it to shift more positively both front and rear than much of what Shimano offers.
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Old 08-01-13, 09:13 AM
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Deore rear derailleur is the way to go- I have them on both 9 and 10 speed bikes, and the shifting is flawless. The one upgrade I might consider is an aftermarket pair of pulleys with ball bearings rather than bushings, but since I haven't yet worn out my bushing pulleys, I haven't gone that way.

Deore derailleurs can be found for about $50, and a new 9-speed 11-34 cassette can be found for about $30. Add a new chain and you're ready to roll.
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Old 08-01-13, 10:13 AM
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Originally Posted by cyccommute
Shimano didn't monkey with the cassette and I don't consider it to be part of the Dynasys system...is that redundant? A 10 speed cassette is still a 10 speed cassette. Just wait until next year, however I'm sure they have something in the works to make their stuff completely incompatible with any previous equipment.

I have X9 and X0 (both 9 speed) on 4 bikes. I like it a lot. I find it to shift more positively both front and rear than much of what Shimano offers.
I know what you mean. My 10 speed SLX cassette will only work with a Shimano 10 speed HGX chain which is not cheap to begin with. Nothing else works well with the 10 speed Shimano SLX cassette, which means that the newer 11 speed for sure is going to be even more proprietary. No thank you. I like the X9 series a lot as well; its very positive quick shifting is better than what Shimano has to offer and is cheaper to run than my 10 speed system. I'm glad I have both, but I like the Shimano road brifters more than the SRAM double tap.
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Old 08-01-13, 10:53 AM
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Originally Posted by cycle_maven
Deore rear derailleur is the way to go- I have them on both 9 and 10 speed bikes, and the shifting is flawless. The one upgrade I might consider is an aftermarket pair of pulleys with ball bearings rather than bushings, but since I haven't yet worn out my bushing pulleys, I haven't gone that way.

Deore derailleurs can be found for about $50, and a new 9-speed 11-34 cassette can be found for about $30. Add a new chain and you're ready to roll.
This is an option I'm looking at and considering. This person has a "Deore Rear Derailleur" that is new for $20. He said it's a 9 speed. I'm trying to figure out where "Deore" fits on this XTR, XT and LX scale? He also said it was a 2012.

None of my current equipment has a long cage as was previously suggested.

On the cassette, I'm assuming that the XTR, XT and LX scale applies for this too? I'm looking at getting a 32t or 34t low for the cassette.
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Old 08-01-13, 10:58 AM
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@fietsbob,

Yeah it seemed that the privous posting I started with didn't really go anywhere. So I thought I'd readdress this question, reword it, and post it somewhere else. I'm glad I did! This has been most helpful and really appreciate all the feedback.
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Old 08-01-13, 11:00 AM
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Originally Posted by User1
I'm trying to figure out where "Deore" fits on this XTR, XT and LX scale?
"Deore" falls right under LX.
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Old 08-01-13, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Chris Pringle
XTR, XT and LX is the top to bottom hierarchy for Shimano MTB group sets. For touring purposes, it is suggested to stick with XT and LX. I understand that sometimes there could be incompatibility issues between road and MTB components (some road shifters with mtb derailleurs), but I believe those apply mostly to 10 speeds. You might also want to look into an inexpensive triple crankset. Shimano's M590 (26, 36, 48T) is quite popular among many of us here. It costs only about $100.
Thanks Chris, I'll consider a triple if things don't work out on the cassette/derailleur adventure. Thanks for the suggestion and I'll make a note of it.
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Old 08-01-13, 11:54 AM
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Your best bet is to try the cassette and derailleur route (+chain). I like Shimano deore LX derailleurs, they work well and are inexpensive: https://www.jensonusa.com/Rear-Derail...ear-Derailleur. Sram cassettes have also been great for me, shifting and price are great: https://www.jensonusa.com/Bicycle-Cas...-Cassette-2011. I run Sram chains also, they shift well, are durable, and I like the power-link connecter: https://www.jensonusa.com/Bicycle-Cha...9SP-Chain-2012.

If you go to a triple in the front, you'll need a long cage rear derailleur, crank, and front derailleur. It's going to be considerably more expensive and won't necessarily get you a lower gear. If your small ring on the triple is a 28T and you keep the same cassette, you'll get a 28.2 inch low gear. If you go the 12-34 cassette route with your current 34T chainring, you'll get a 27.2 inch low gear, which will be slightly lower than the Triple route. The advantage of the triple is it will give you closer spaced gears if that's important to you.
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Old 08-01-13, 12:21 PM
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Boxed up a bike ridden across the country with the 50-34 crank on it, a fortnight ago, , FWIW ,

and UPS drove it back to their starting point.
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