that made me laugh also. I have a cheap tripod chair I almost brought along last trip, but ended up not bringing.
Camping all the time doesnt bother me, but my back doesnt like sitting on the ground day after day, and tripod ones are comfortable for my back, plus like you say, if its wet, its nice to have a dry place to sit. Its still in with my bike stuff and figure it weighs a lb or so, its likely I will take it next trip where I will be camping a lot.

But a pound of feathers has a greater volume than a pound of gold and that will mean a bigger surface area that is going to affect wind resistance, thereby decreasing speed potential for the same energy inputs.

That's right, let's get talking about wind resistance... and headwinds which are the bane of all touring cyclists... and how carrying less can reduce frontal area. :D

I've taken along several different types of chairs on tours. They have worked to some degree or another, but we are quite lucky in Australia that established campgrounds usually have picnic tables and chairs that people can use. We did find a dearth of these in European campgrounds, and we almost bought tripod chairs, but couldn't find any that were light but also durable enough.

We both have the converters for sleep pads, and on an extended working tour, I used mine a LOT. But then there is a need to trade off the cost of the weight and volume against how often it would be used and the comfort gains it would produce. Sometimes it's yes, and sometimes it's no.

In the course of life I ride my bicycle at lots of different loads. I don't drive a car, so this is my utility vehicle, my commuting vehicle, my recreational vehicle. I take unloaded rides just for fun around town, commuting rides with a small load, overnight camping trips, overnight trips to stay with family/friends, etc. And sometimes I hang around the same area in the middle of my tour and find an opportunity to leave most of my gear in a motel room.

So while I appreciate the thought, I don't think I'm just riding with a load and not knowing what it would be like to be lighter.

I have 3 comfort priorities when I'm on tour ...

1) Since I spend a good portion of my day on my bicycle, it has to be comfortable. Therefore, I choose to go with a Brooks saddle, which is a bit heavier than other choices, and dual sided pedals which are also a bit heavier than other choices. And I don't tour on a featherweight bicycle because it is not practical for my purposes.

2) Since I spend a good portion of my day sleeping, and since sleep gives me the energy to ride another day, I need to be comfortable at night. Therefore I choose a comfortable mat (and I've gone through a lot of changes when it comes to my mat), and I bring a collection of pillows, and I like a warm, comfortable sleeping bag (I'm still experimenting with that ... starting to lean toward a down quilt). I also have my sarong.

3) I hate being cold. Yet, for some reason, when I go anywhere, the cold and the rain follow me. It could be 40C and sunny somewhere the day before I get there, and when I arrive, it will be 10C and pouring rain. So ... my third priority is to be warm and dry. Therefore I will bring heavy wool socks, instead of lightweight little things, and on our most recent tour we opted to bring down jackets which hadn't occurred to me before. Definitely a good idea!


All that said, I still manage to travel fairly light ... it's all about priorities.

Our loaded touring bicycles on our 8-month RTW tour ...

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8164/7...40bc3988_z.jpg


We're probably carrying slightly more than what we actually needed, but sometimes it is hard to tell until you get going. For example, I had 3 pair of cycling shorts with me. I wouldn't do that again. 2 is ample.

The load on the left-hand bike includes a full Trangia cook kit, and a three-person tent on top of the rack. There are also a pair of Croc knockoffs on there, and a tool kit (in the yellow drybag under the seat) that got us through the tour without any issues.

My bike and gear came in at 70lbs dry weight. Included were P&S camera and notebook computer with mains transformer, the cookset and the down jacket.

Based on the "equation" of value versus weight, I was happy with arrangement for the type of trip we did.

It's just something I've been thinking about doing myself so it's been on my mind. I know what it feels like to ride my 22 lb bike and I know what it feels like to ride my 65 lb bike but I don't know what the costs/benefits are touring day after day with a different bike and equipment, etc. Again, great thread and best of luck as you dial things in and find what's best for you.

As I said, earlier, I have never bike toured, only extensively hiked. But I have to say, it has never occurred to me to bring a chair on a hiking trip. I have never noticed the lack of one, and would not consider one in bike touring. It appears that philosophy may play a bigger role in "the cost of a pound" than physics does.

... put on the shop keepers scale and ask "How Much"?

gold per pound is more than the same weight in Silver.

After reading all three pages.....there is only one solution....shake down rides.

Some will say you don't need anything special to sleep in, just wear your cloths to bed. Others may NEED pajamas to get to sleep. You really will not know your minimums until you test for them. (You will also not know what creature comforts will make you happy.)

Absolutely!!

Also ... there's a chance you'll never quite settle on the perfect setup. Just when you think you've got it, someone mentions something new to get you thinking.

For me, that was "down quilts" ... ah ha! That might solve a small difficulty I've been having ... :)


And I'm still on the hunt for the perfect "bottoms". I like my convertible pants, but I'd like them to be stretchy, and I've never seen stretch convertible pants. I like my stretch capris, but they tend to be just a bit heavy. I have an idea what I want, but I've never seen it for sale.

This one at 1 lb 1.6 oz interests me. I tried my friend's while I sent him off on a wild goose chase and it was pretty comfy for such a lightweight liability. I don't mean to hijack the thread but would be interested to know if any others had used this model and felt it was worth hauling another pound.

http://c745.r45.cf2.rackcdn.com/img/...lite_chair.jpg

The chair question does depend (yep, that word again) on how much time you spend in camp, and what you do in camp. If you are a voracious computer user, then having something to support your back while you sit and play is good (especially the older you get). On one long working tour, I spent quite a lot of time in my tent composing emails and a diary on a tiny computer. But there are other tours where a seat just hasn't been needed because of long riding days, or the camping areas have had picnic tables, or I have been off doing other stuff.

I suppose it comes down to having a core list of items that would be used on every tour, and having a pick-and-choose list that suits the type of tour to be done this time around -- credit card, fast remote, slow remote, ambling between towns...

I don't know that model. I have one of these camping stools -> http://www.rei.com/product/765283/rei-trail-stool

About the same weight. I like not having to roll it up and put it in a stuff sack. It just collapses into a cylindrical shape and I loop a bungie cord over it. I like having it when it rains a lot and there's no picnic table or when I have no way to hang my rain fly over the table. I have a big rain fly I can hang wherever my hammock will be. That puts my bicycle, gear, sleeping, cooking area all in the same reasonably dry place. Then having the stool keeps my butt off the wet ground.

By packing in just the right order I can make camp in a downpour without getting anything very wet. I put up the hammock and rain fly first, and then the whole bicycle is out of the rain which allows me to unpack/setup other stuff in dry comfort.

How to rationally determine the cost of a pound?
 

I'm in the "light as possible, but not ultralite" camp. One piece of gear I added a few years ago which is a bit heavy but dang useful is a Bear Vault.
It keeps food from being crushed or invaded by creepy crawlies, critters and uh bears, but doubles up as a camp chair and clothes washing tub.

In keeping with Machka's multi-purpose goal you can't beat the Thermarest Trekker chair. It converts the pad you may be already carrying to a chair. It rolls right up with the pad adding virtually no additional bulk and weighs in at only 9.5 ounces.

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/therm-...ir-kit/product

It's particularly useful if you're touring in Europe where you don't often find a picnic table at the campground. If you get stranded in your tent for a rainy day you can sit up comfortably and read. I bet you can't even find the one I'm carrying in this photo!

http://www.bikeforums.net/showthread...1#post16337606

edit-

Indeed the current model in the link above has a high back as djb has noted in his post #94 below. I have an older model pictured below which utilizes a 3/4 length (48") mattress. A third of it is folded over to double up the seat section leaving 16" of height on the back. Not ideal but does offer some lower back support. I don't know if Therma-Rest still makes the short back version or not.

http://i977.photobucket.com/albums/a...hermARestR.jpg

I used to be the same, never thinking of a chair/stool. As I got older, I began to notice that even car camping, after numerous days of using "slouchy" typical camp chairs, or even sitting with picnic benches, my back missed having either lower back support or sitting straight. I even found some "kiddie" camp chairs we have to be the best for me, as the lower back support was perfect for me with them being short.
Sure, this is my personal back issue, but the cheap tripod stool I have similar to Walter S's one, works for me cuz it keeps my back straight when sitting, keeps me from slouching all the time. Again, maybe its an age thing as well, but probably a combo of age plus some past fall, in any case, keeping sitting straight helps a great deal for me when camping day after day, hence my idea to take this "extra" pound.

Like I said earlier, I still haven't taken it for a bike trip, but probably would for a long trip--the extra pound or so being worth it versus back comfort, kinda like sleep comfort for some being worth the bulk of a pillow or whatever.

Robow, the one you show is probably "short" as well, giving lower back support if it doesnt go up too high on your back--but then it really does depend on each person doesnt it?

This is a perfect example of what works for one person doesnt for another.

We got these about 15 yrs ago or more, you cant beat the compactness of them and lightweight, but for me, because of the shape, the height of the "back" and how it tends to "bow" under at the bottom/lower back area. The lower back support isnt great and my lower back would get sore.
See how high the back goes up, the straps are at the top, so your lower back tends to end up curving back outwards because your weight pushes that part out.
Short backed chairs are much better in this regard as the design actively supports the lower back.

As always, your back may, and will, vary.

So does the consensus have it that you cannot rationally determine the cost of a pound? Far be it from me to be critical of the advice represented by the depth of experience here, but still it looks like the forest is getting lost in all the trees. Surely an analytic approach is still possible.

Suppose you've already determined that you want cookware. You have to decide if a pound lighter cookware is worth the higher cost. We can already calculate how much a certain weight slows you down. Even better, someone like Rowan or Macha could just tell you, 20 pounds extra will make the daily target take one hour longer (or whatever it is). You can't put a global number on that, but you could for example say, "Seven hours of riding is enough for me, and I'd give 20 dollars a day to not have to ride eight hours instead." So with a five day tour, (with these made up numbers) the 20 pounds extra is worth 100 dollars, or $5/pound. If the lighter cookware is less than $5 more, it's worth it for a single tour. Clearly my numbers are off, and you'd want to consider multiple tours, and it says nothing of the subjective pleasure of the ride, but why can't that approach be used when tempered with those objections?

the choice is: take it, or leave it at home. bring it, then mail it home, works too..

Actually it goes up the back pretty high. I was surprised how easy it was to "balance" yourself and after a few minutes you didn't think about it. Getting in and out did take a little adjustment.

http://whygo-amr.s3.amazonaws.com/ww.../2010/08/4.jpg

One problem with this whole line of thinking is that most of the weight saving measures are not necessarily more expensive. I often find that with many choices saving weight also saves money. For one thing much of the weight saving that I have done is leaving things home and that costs less not more. Then there is the fact that the lighter items are not necessarily more expensive.

I am pretty sure I have less invested in my 12 pound base gear load than in my 45 pound base gear load from years ago, with one "if". It might even be true without the "if". That "if" is if you don't count my sleeping bag and sleeping pad choices. I think that is a reasonable "if" though because the choice was also a big upgrade in comfort not only a weight saving measure.

I have found that the cost per ounce saved didn't become a big deal until you are down to saving the last few ounces. I was under 20 pounds base before I bought any titanium stuff and at 12 pounds I still am not buying high dollar stuff like cuben fiber.

I guess you could start with calculating the weight and price of everything you take on tour. That'd give you an average dollar/gram

I'm not sure I want to know the total though :eek:

My focus was to find out what impact weight has on speed. That gives me a "rational" basis to consider cost vs. benefit of carrying that weight. So I do think we can rationally determine the cost of a pound when considered in those specific terms. That was my goal.

When you go beyond that and consider things like how much you care about that impact and what you might want to do about it, there you enter a realm that will vary a whole lot based on specific personalities, trip plans and schedule constraints, and why we're touring by bicycle in the first place. I don't see much value if trying to reduce all that to a formula.

For example, in the case you outline above, one need only decide not to have a firm daily target mileage, and there need not be any riding for an extra hour so you can hit that target. These are all personal decisions. For me sometimes my target is very important. Othertimes not at all. It all depends.