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Bike build

Old 02-09-14, 09:05 AM
  #1  
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Bike build

I mistakenly posted this at C&V......


I am currently planning my custom touring bike build.

This is my 50th birthday gift from my wife and she gave the green light to go all out.

www.tomiicycles.com has agreed to build me a frame/fork/stem/racks.

Give me ideas on a wheelset (650b)

Drivetrain, bars etc.

How would you equip a bike to be both functional and beautiful, money be damned.


Scott
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Old 02-09-14, 10:00 AM
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For wheels, Velocity makes some great rims in 650b, which one you should choose depends on what kind of touring, weight carried, your weight, etc. For hubs, I really love White Industries, they are beautiful and durable. Phil Wood is another great choice but not as pretty IMHO although they are some of the easiest hubs to pull apart which is nice for side of the road repairs.

Drivetrain is a very personal choice, I love the way Sram shifters feel but Shimano is much easier to find around the world

Bars also are a very personal thing, I am assuming we are talking drop bars. I am getting a nice custom frame as well later this month and I will be running the Salsa Cowbell bar. If I was not already spending too much on the frame I really would like to try the Thompson bars but talk about spendy...

Almost forgot to mention, congrats on getting such a nice frame. Those Tomii frames look great
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Old 02-09-14, 10:24 AM
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front wheel schmit 28 dynamo married to the latese B@M headlight plus top light tail light.
brooks champion special with copper rivets and rails ,nice drop handlebars with matching brooks leather tape.
tyres has to be Grand Bios or second to that schwalble supreams.
drive train rohloff would be up there but i too like shimano.
what ever you choose the very best of luck i'm sure its gonna be class.
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Old 02-09-14, 10:34 AM
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First get a Phil BB, nothing better or easier to install.
Second get a ROHLOFF 14, also nothing easier to maintain. Deraillers are stupid in EVERY way.
Don't leave home without a dynohub.
Make the frame LONG and the stem short.
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Old 02-09-14, 11:33 AM
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And For touring always bring a couple extra tires , 650b may only be in French bike shops ..

when you need a replacement after a casing blowout. rare to nil anywhere else.

of course owning a 'touring bike' and actually going long distances on one is 2 separate things..


Rohloff, trekking Bars, dynohub, with or without disc brakes.. are all good ..

Cane creek 'thudbuster' seat posts also good

Go IGH? Have them discuss chain tensioners schemes .. sliding dropouts ,
Rohloff supplies engineering drawings for frame builders to use.
My Koga WTR has used some that resemble those... 100% reliable (so far)

Paragon machines ones that some builders like.

and using Tandem Eccentric BB's are both solutions, that work.
R&E , Thorn Raven, and Tout Terrain, examples of working productions.

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Old 02-09-14, 12:37 PM
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Tensioners/ Creaky klutzy EBBs ???? Get serious. A horrible idea for where 3/4 of dirt and rust goes.
Track dropouts or don't bother.
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Old 02-09-14, 06:49 PM
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I would suggest to keep it beautiful and simple, esp. if you already chose a builder. A derailleur drivetrain is super efficient, lighter, simple and a LOT less expensive than a Rohloff IGH. You're also not stuck with a proprietary system that very few people in the world know how to fix, although they seem to be super durable. I would consider a Rohloff IGH maybe if I were going around the world where that type of drivetrain might have some merits. Also, I would only go with a Rohloff-approved builder who has tenths of these under his belt or else you might be in for a disappointment. As mentioned, Rohloff can be tricky to be set up.

If money is not much of a concern:

* Tomii Frame - I like the touch of C&V of Tomii frames with flat top tubes. Is that what you're trying to achieve -- a beautiful C&V look? First time I hear of him, but overall I like his work. His frames look like they are TIG welded. Lugs or fillet would be even more awesome. Some builders can do amazing paint jobs that incorporate faux lugs. Those could be a nice alternative.

* Wheelset - Chris K. nailed it. Velocity for beautiful silver rims. White Industries hubs are gorgeous, roll super smoothly and less expensive than Phil Wood's. But if money is no issue, Phil Wood! I know 650b is becoming more popular, but I really question their usefulness, especially for international touring to various countries due to the lack of replacement tires and parts. 700c or 26" would be my only personal choices for a touring bike.

* Drivetrain - There is nothing more beautiful than Campagnolo, IMHO. Unfortunately, they are not great for touring. I would definitely use their ergo shifters (so comfortable!) for touring in combination with Sram/Shimano drivetrain. There are some tricks to make this combo work because they're not naturally compatible.

* Handlebars are very subjective, but for a classic look and comfort nothing beats Nitto handlebars, esp. the Noodle or Randonneur.

Extras to consider:
* S&S couplers - Take your bike anywhere in the world
* Honjo "hammered" fenders
* Lots of polished silver touches: stem, seat post
* Leather saddle: Brooks, Gilles Berthoud
* Brakes: Paul Components for the best in aesthetics and function when it comes to rim brakes

We did a similar C&V touring build last year. We went with R&E Cycles (AKA Rodriguez Bikes) in Seattle. We settled with 26" wheels due to what I mentioned above (worldwide availability) and so much easier to pack in S&S case for air travel.




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Old 02-09-14, 08:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Flog00 View Post
I mistakenly posted this at C&V......
...
How would you equip a bike to be both functional and beautiful, money be damned.
...
I agree with the previous suggestion for 26 inch wheels. You were silent on type of bars (flat or drop), type of gearing (derailleur vs internally geared hub), type of shifter if derailleur and drop bar (STI vs bar end), type of touring (loaded with camping gear vs credit card), type of road (always paved vs sometimes gravel), S&S couplers or not, etc. I think you need to decide some of these things yourself instead of throwing this out for discussion. I prefer cantilever brakes but some prefer V brakes, that is something else you will find many conflicting opinions on.

I assume you will have a phone that charges from USB port. There are a couple options for USB charging fed by the SON front dynohub, get that hub but research the USB charging option that you think you want.

Originally Posted by Chris Pringle View Post


That is exceptionally beautiful, thanks for posting.

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Old 02-09-14, 08:41 PM
  #9  
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Originally Posted by Tourist in MSN View Post
I agree with the previous suggestion for 26 inch wheels. You were silent on type of bars (flat or drop), type of gearing (derailleur vs internally geared hub), type of shifter if derailleur and drop bar (STI vs bar end), type of touring (loaded with camping gear vs credit card), type of road (always paved vs sometimes gravel), S&S couplers or not, etc. I think you need to decide some of these things yourself instead of throwing this out for discussion. I prefer cantilever brakes but some prefer V brakes, that is something else you will find many conflicting opinions on.

I assume you will have a phone that charges from USB port. There are a couple options for USB charging fed by the SON front dynohub, get that hub but research the USB charging option that you think you want.
I will use drop bars, STI, both kinds of touring, paved and gravel, still deciding between canti or disc.

The dyno USB idea is exactly why I have started these threads... I hadn't thought of that in regards to my smartphone, thanks.
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Old 02-09-14, 09:04 PM
  #10  
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Originally Posted by Chris Pringle View Post
I would suggest to keep it beautiful and simple, esp. if you already chose a builder. Tomii and I both agree!
If money is not much of a concern:

* Tomii Frame - I like the touch of C&V of Tomii frames with flat top tubes. Is that what you're trying to achieve -- a beautiful C&V look? First time I hear of him, but overall I like his work. His frames look like they are TIG welded. Lugs or fillet would be even more awesome. Some builders can do amazing paint jobs that incorporate faux lugs. Those could be a nice alternative. His frames are fillet brazed.




I wish I could see a close up of the brakes. What is the front cable hanger? It is really nice.
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Old 02-09-14, 09:49 PM
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SON28 dyno hub and Luxos U headlight has usb charging port. Add in the topline brake plus tailight and yer good to go. Might want to consider internal wiring since you're doing a build. Curious though-You have a 620, and a 720. BOTH are capable tourers. And a Sojourn. Pretty sure the Centurian is tour quality as well. (I had one a couple decades ago, and sorry I sold it). Anyhow, I just finishing a 520 custom build. Had S&S couplers installed, new paint, airbrushed the logos, Ultegra crank and cassette (30 spd), XT rear derailluer, XTR front. Forgot which wheels though. Brooks saddle and bar tape. BioMax drop road bars with Dura Ace bar ends. Can't wait til the snow melts so I can get it on the road! This is my 50th birthday present along with a supported tour across Canada for 10 weeks. Can't wait. Congrats on the new bike bike. Those certainly look beautiful!
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Old 02-09-14, 10:12 PM
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Not a fan of the Luxos U myself.
Much prefer the Son28 matched with an Edelux and an E-werk for different charging possibilities.
I believe the Luxos output is not high enough to adequately keep up with Apple products which utilise a higher usb standard of output. (I could be wrong)
I also find the more traditional polished alloy look of the Edelux more pleasing to my eye. (You may differ)

I also prefer the Philips Lumiring led dynamo tail-light to any of the B&M products being somewhat influenced by internet reports of water ingress.
Mine bolts to the back of my Tubus Cosmo like it was made for it.
Its been said Philips are ceasing production of bicycle led lights but theres still stock in shops.
Mines been heavily used for 3 or 4 months now and I love it.

Also like my Rohloff but believe they are an acquired taste, being a heavy lump in the rear without a "crisp" shift of a well tuned derailleur.
Many complain about the noise in the lower gears (-7) but I find its the noise in over-run (coasting) whilst in the higher (8+) gears thats off putting due to my riding style of coasting a lot.

I like my Brooks Flyer Special but the juries still out as to whether or not its substantially more comfortable than my B17 Special which would make up for its larger weight penalty.

Love my Gilles Berthoud polished stainless fenders and the riding position afforded by my Titec J-bar handlebar.

Wouldnt be without my BB7 diskbrakes as the stopping power was a revelation and with no wear on my silver Velocity Dyads which appear to be standing up to my overburdened riding style despite all the warning I got about my 36 per wheel silver Sapim CX-Rays.

My cranks are labelled Thorn as is the reversible 34T front ring used in conjunction with a Shimano UN73 BB.

I utilise Schwalbe tires being:
Fat Boys for home/commuting duty
Supremes for tarmac only touring
Mondials for mixed surface duty.

I'm sure your custom racks will suit your frame.
I went with the touring standard of Tubus, in my case stainless Cosmo and Nova due to finding scratched paint and rust issues in my last set (I live coastal and leave my racks on my bike all the time).
Having found good results with my Rear Roller Classics, I've stuck with Ortlieb panniers, handlebar bag and 30 liter rack bag (medium).

I went with Thomson for my stem and seatpost.
X4 and Masterpiece.

I use and recommend you try a Click-Stand.
https://click-stand.com/

Last edited by rifraf; 02-09-14 at 10:54 PM.
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Old 02-10-14, 12:09 AM
  #13  
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Originally Posted by Flog00 View Post
I wish I could see a close up of the brakes. What is the front cable hanger? It is really nice.
The brake cable hanger is made by Problem Solvers.

I don't have other pics of the brakes, except for this one from the back:



They are Paul Components' Touring Canti Brakes. This is what they look like from the front. I don't think you can find better canti brakes aesthetically/functionally speaking.



still deciding between canti or disc.
I have another touring bike. On that one I went with Avid BB7. The stopping power and modulation are just amazing on those brakes. Having said that, I feel that one loses a lot of nice ride qualities by going with a disc-braked fork. The fork crown and blades need to be made of much stiffer, beefier and often of heavier materials. This translates into a ride that is not so lively (i.e., springy) compared to a fork made for rim brakes. If aesthetics and ride quality is big in your priority list (when not touring), I think you'll be happier with rim brakes while still maintaining very good function. If you want the absolute best stopping power while giving up significantly on aesthetics and ride quality, then disc brakes is the way to go. Speak to your builder, though, as he might have some interesting ideas.

My disc-braked Touring Bike:

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Old 02-10-14, 02:09 AM
  #14  
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Rohloff hub in back, son dynohub in front. Gates belt drive. S&S couplers, clearance for very large tires in the front and back.
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Old 02-10-14, 06:26 AM
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the paul brakes are class i had them on my sherpa ,
that blue and white rodriguez is stuning.
wonder can that frame be bought seperatly.
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Old 02-10-14, 08:40 AM
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Originally Posted by antokelly View Post
that blue and white rodriguez is stuning.
wonder can that frame be bought seperatly.
Thank you. Glad to hear you like it!

We designed "Blue Boy" totally from scratch. They do have the plans now for frame and fork so that part is done. I figure they can easily make adjustments to someone else's body proportions. So, call/write Scott at R&E to inquire.
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Old 02-10-14, 09:05 AM
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It looks like you are going for a classy look for your build which is awesome. I would really push you towards these rims if you are more concerned about durability over weight (not sure if you are doing very light touring or fully loaded touring) but they are very solid. I have been trying to destroy them on my cargo bike for a while now and they have yet to see a spoke wrench. The best part is they come in a gorgeous polished finish. https://www.velocityusa.com/product/rims/atlas-584

For brakes, the Pauls really are tough to top, they look great, have a spring that I doubt could fail unlike most brakes and they have plenty of power.
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Old 02-10-14, 11:20 PM
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WOW! CP that is a B E A U T I F U L bike man.
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Old 02-11-14, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Flog00 View Post
I will use drop bars, STI, both kinds of touring, paved and gravel, still deciding between canti or disc.
...
I do not use STI, can't comment on the different brands or models or years of production from experience. But, if I was shopping for new STI, I would start a conversion about the merits of Campy, Sram and Shimano with bike mechanics in every nearby shop. I also would lean towards ones that can be rebuilt.

Gravel touring, I was unhappy with my 700cX37mm tires on gravel so I bought a 26 inch touring bike for the trips that are predominantly gravel. I have used that 26 inch bike with 40mm wide Schwalbe Marathons (with GreenGuard) on pavement touring and was very happy with them. I have also used that bike on gravel tours with 50mm wide Dureme tire on the front and Marathon Extreme 50mm on the rear. (Unfortunately the Dureme and Extreme are now out of production.)

I have cantilever or V brakes on all my bikes, can't comment on disks. I prefer cantilever over V brakes, if you are using STI I suspect you would be much happier with cantilever than with the travel agent adapters on V brakes.

I agree with the others, if money is no object you should get the S&S couplers. But unfortunately that means you should carry an S&S wrench (in the event that they loosen) in your on-bike repair kit wherever you go. I put a piece of electrical tape around each end of the coupler threaded piece to keep dirt and dust out of the threads, that helps keep them from loosening, but I still carry a wrench with me.

You were silent on luggage, if your new bike comes with panniers, I have never heard anybody complain about Arkel. I use Ortliebs, but if someone was going to give me a set of my choice I would probably pick Arkels. I have toured with someone that had red Arkels, they faded in the sun badly, if you get Arkels, ask around what color is least likely to fad.

For all components, think about long term reliability, ease of adjustment and ease of maintenance. Everybody seems to be on the more is better fad for number of gears, but I am quite happy with 8 speed chains and cassettes and triple crankset.

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Old 02-11-14, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by LuckySailor View Post
WOW! CP that is a B E A U T I F U L bike man.
+1 and one item CP has on that bike that I have found nearly essential are the cross interupter brake levers. Extremely handy on gravel and urban areas where you want to be more upright and checking out traffic etc. Not much added weight for the benefits they provide.
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Old 02-12-14, 08:55 AM
  #21  
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Originally Posted by Chris Pringle View Post
I would suggest to keep it beautiful and simple, esp. if you already chose a builder. A derailleur drivetrain is super efficient, lighter, simple and a LOT less expensive than a Rohloff IGH. You're also not stuck with a proprietary system that very few people in the world know how to fix, although they seem to be super durable. I would consider a Rohloff IGH maybe if I were going around the world where that type of drivetrain might have some merits. Also, I would only go with a Rohloff-approved builder who has tenths of these under his belt or else you might be in for a disappointment. As mentioned, Rohloff can be tricky to be set up.

If money is not much of a concern:

* Tomii Frame - I like the touch of C&V of Tomii frames with flat top tubes. Is that what you're trying to achieve -- a beautiful C&V look? First time I hear of him, but overall I like his work. His frames look like they are TIG welded. Lugs or fillet would be even more awesome. Some builders can do amazing paint jobs that incorporate faux lugs. Those could be a nice alternative.

* Wheelset - Chris K. nailed it. Velocity for beautiful silver rims. White Industries hubs are gorgeous, roll super smoothly and less expensive than Phil Wood's. But if money is no issue, Phil Wood! I know 650b is becoming more popular, but I really question their usefulness, especially for international touring to various countries due to the lack of replacement tires and parts. 700c or 26" would be my only personal choices for a touring bike.

* Drivetrain - There is nothing more beautiful than Campagnolo, IMHO. Unfortunately, they are not great for touring. I would definitely use their ergo shifters (so comfortable!) for touring in combination with Sram/Shimano drivetrain. There are some tricks to make this combo work because they're not naturally compatible.

* Handlebars are very subjective, but for a classic look and comfort nothing beats Nitto handlebars, esp. the Noodle or Randonneur.

Extras to consider:
* S&S couplers - Take your bike anywhere in the world
* Honjo "hammered" fenders
* Lots of polished silver touches: stem, seat post
* Leather saddle: Brooks, Gilles Berthoud
* Brakes: Paul Components for the best in aesthetics and function when it comes to rim brakes

We did a similar C&V touring build last year. We went with R&E Cycles (AKA Rodriguez Bikes) in Seattle. We settled with 26" wheels due to what I mentioned above (worldwide availability) and so much easier to pack in S&S case for air travel.



this is one serious good looking bike and well speced out super build.
is there any chance of posting more photos ,how did you manage to marry the campag sti withe shimano xt drive train.you,ve restored my faith in 599 wheels
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Old 02-13-14, 08:44 PM
  #22  
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Originally Posted by antokelly View Post
this is one serious good looking bike and well speced out super build.
is there any chance of posting more photos ,how did you manage to marry the campag sti withe shimano xt drive train.you,ve restored my faith in 599 wheels
Thank you again! By the way, it is not my intention to hijack this thread. I hope the info is informative to the OP on his custom build.

The drivetrain is a combination of Campagnolo 10 speed shifters and 9 sp. Shimano/Sram components. The wheels are Velocity Aeroheat laced to White Industries hubs. The Campagnolo front shifter works fine with the XT front derailleur. As far as the rear derailleur, we used this daVinci modified Sram rear derailleur that perfectly matches the pull of the Campy shifters. The entire system works like butter!

There are absolutely no negatives in running the 26" (ISO 559mm) wheels. The bike is really responsive and nimble given the careful geometry I worked out with the builder for its frame and fork: wheelbase, front-end trail, chainstay length, etc. Its main use is randonneuring and touring with 4 small panniers.

More photos on this build can be seen here.

Last edited by Chris Pringle; 02-13-14 at 10:50 PM.
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Old 02-14-14, 12:47 AM
  #23  
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I would be another vote against 650b, that makes no sense to me, though there are set-ups possible where you can run two tire sizes, particularly with discs. But also with calipers. 26 is the off-road, and third world champ, and 700/27 are the better rollers. Now that the 26er guys are all building 29ers, I wonder why anyone uses anything other than 700c. The only advantage to 650b, is if you have some frame size constraint, or packing constraint.

Component wise if you can get a Rohloff in a Phil case, that would be great, otherwise it is pretty much impossible to build a nice Rohloff bike, at least by touring standards. You can build techy nice I guess. I like that, zip ties to organize the cables trash, and a nice soviet paint scheme.

My custom has the following components:

- Dirt Drop bars

- Microshift bar ends,

- Brake levers not chosen yet, I have two different sets in the running

- I think it is currently hard to get nice looking discs, but now that they are running them in Xcross, that may change. My bike has neo retros on it, but you need to check the fork clearance before you choose. Fat spacings can use the Neos, but the other sizes can actually cost you stopping power. Pauls don't really increase stopping power, the best bet there are some NOS pedersens.

- Everything Paul one can put on a bike, Seat post, half moons, levers for the third brake or the xcross levers. Thingies for lights and cameras, etc... I'd like to get some Nos deraileurs, just for the fun of it.

- My hubs are mostly White, but I did that so they would match the eno cranks I had on the Rohloff, I was going through a touring groupo thing at the time... Phil are pretty much the only people making touring hubs for real, including the internal gear guys. The White hub is nice but the rigging angles are really high on the Cassette side, so if you are going crazy cassette and chain sizes, it makes sense, but for an 8 not so much. Really pretty hub, and a Ti shell for decent strength compared to shimano.

- Cranks are Sugino, and White eno.

-BB is White, but Phil is more standard. White makes a Ti BB, which saves weight in a place where it won't hurt you, other than in the wallet.

-Pedals, I went with the White. I badly want to try the Flypaper pedals, but the cranks they run, are not to my taste.

- Seat, Brooks B-17. To get this right, you need to know your position, then get your custom bike built so it can do this with a Zero offset post, or if you go conventional geometry you will need an offset, which really doesn't make any sense on a non-racing bike. But it would be tragic to get a custom bike then get it set-up so that all the adjustments were maxed out to the rear, to put your Brooks on.

- I want to go with Nokon housings, but so far haven't chosen the frame paint, so I am not jumping on them yet. These will improve cable performance, and look very cool. You can get anodized cable ends that look very similar for 5 bucks for 50, so the price of the housings seems pretty crazy.

- Velocity rims in silver. Buy a few sets if you get the expensive hubs, that way you can rebuild the wheels with new rims whenever they wear out, and don't have to worry about the company changing the specs, which seems like an annual event.

- Wheelsmith spokes.

- Customs these days need Chris King headsets.

Start with the luggage, then the racks, then build the frame. You want your racks and luggage to fit level and perfect on the frame and you want substantial fittings, and 6mm bolts. It is really easy to spend custom money to build a stock frame. You need to really know what every single component does on your ride, and how to tweak it to be better, and what frame stuff needs to be there for that to happen. For instance, the pedals you choose affect the BB height. The bags you use affect the CS length. The bars you choose affect top tube length. The drive train you choose affects frame dimensions, and so on. You buy all the parts first, then build the frame, not the other way around.

Those Tomii bikes are pretty, but the website didn't convince me they were touring bike specialists. Anyone can build you a 2K LHT, and then send it out for expensive paint.

Last edited by MassiveD; 02-14-14 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 02-14-14, 09:24 AM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by Flog00 View Post
I mistakenly posted this at C&V......


I am currently planning my custom touring bike build.

This is my 50th birthday gift from my wife and she gave the green light to go all out.

www.tomiicycles.com has agreed to build me a frame/fork/stem/racks.

Give me ideas on a wheelset (650b)

Drivetrain, bars etc.

How would you equip a bike to be both functional and beautiful, money be damned.


Scott
Man that guy certainly knows how to charge for a frame $2500 for a touring frame and if i'm reading it right he charges extra for canti braze on's, and everything else and only one colour choice. if i were you i'de shop around, i dont care if hes good guaranteed you would get a frame made every bit as good for a lot less.
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Old 02-14-14, 10:43 AM
  #25  
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Originally Posted by antokelly View Post
Man that guy certainly knows how to charge for a frame $2500 for a touring frame and if i'm reading it right he charges extra for canti braze on's, and everything else and only one colour choice. if i were you i'de shop around, i dont care if hes good guaranteed you would get a frame made every bit as good for a lot less.
Yeah, I get it.

But he is the guy I want. Small time, living the dream and a good family man. I have no issue with his price. Is it too much? Probably.... but I live very conservatively so I can splurge on this a bit



Scott
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