If you've been bit by a dog that was trained and encouraged to attack you while carrying mail, why didn't the Federal authorities get involved? That goes way beyond the "he said, he said" type of complaint and into assault on an US Postal employee which is a federal crime. Good Ol' Bubba would be in whole different world of hurt. At the very least Ol' Bubba wouldn't be gettin' his mail. That's what happens in my city when you have an aggressive dog. It doesn't even have to bit the mailman, just threaten to do it.

Exactly. If someone has trained a dog to attack humans and does it with any kind of regularity, the local law enforcement will know about it.

Any time a person with a dog bite seeks medical attention - even at a doc-in-a-box - a report IS made to the COUNTY health department. THEY have the power to cite the homeowner. THEY have the power to have the dog destroyed if it has been proven to be a nuisance.

FWIW, Only ONE of the bites I sustained was the dog able to break skin - the other three times it just got a hold of clothes/boot. The one dog that got ME was a German Shepard, and it got my wrist and chomped down to the bones. I was not the first person that dog had bitten and had been reported to the county. In my case it was reported to the county, and the owner was mad at ME and the USPS because a letter was sent to the homeowner by the COUNTY. The County also reported the incident to the homeowner's insurance company and he had to pay for increased cost coverage for a 'vicious dog'. At the Post Office, if we saw that dog out in the yard, we were instructed to not deliver not only that house, but also two on either side for our own safety.

The dog that got me was NOT trained as an attack dog. Just a very nasty tempered one. It later attacked and severely mauled the next door neighbor as she was digging in her flower bed - in her own yard. The COUNTY ordered the dog destroyed.

Having to deal with customers whose dogs were sprayed with Halt, I have to say it does work. Meter readers carried it every day, and used it as needed.

I carry it on my handlebars, and it has been effective for me. Once used, get a new one for sure. Nashbar has a mount for it.

I'm confused. Aren't you the guy who told us that the COUNTY didn't get involved? Who do you think orders the dog destroyed? The courts that you said won't get involved. And who carries out the order? The sheriff who you said doesn't get involved.

I've been touring for 30+ years, I've toured and ridden in all but 5 of the 50 states. I've been around dogs all my life. I have never any trouble with any dog anywhere I've ridden. I've used the method I've detailed above with every dog that has come out to chase me or threaten me. 90% of the dogs I've run across will actually come to me with a little coaxing and the rest haven't come close enough for me to kick.

I have become quite a friend locally to a few canines. It started after several very early season rides a few years ago. When I have few miles in and would tire easily and sprint poorly. So...I started carrying treats. Works like a charm. A few in the back pocket works well.

I don't know what everyone is getting riled about, dogs and local condition vary. Who cares if you have been in fifty states. I am sure people have been killed by dogs in all fifty states also. There are 30-35 reported fatalities each year in the US, and there must be a ton of partial eatings, cause I know of several this year in my area. About half of those official us reports are Pit Bulls. Great, some people really love them too. The fact a dog makes a good pet, when he isn't easting your children, can be the reason he makes a good attacker. Sometimes there are overlaps where loyalty/pecking order is concerned with aggressive behaviours. By the way, it is 15 PBs, after that about 12 mixed breed, and 4 rotties, pretty muich every year. Back a few decades Great Danes were the killers.

That dog whisperer guy says not to hit dogs on the head, that it only makes them angrier. He says the shoulders is a better target. Anyone know if they are susceptible to a brachial stun attack? In one scene I saw him punch, or kick a dog in the chest seemed to come under the radar, and knock them back.

Dog Whisperer: Showdown with Holly - YouTube


Around here are 5:30, you can see the umbrella thing:

Dog bite prevention demonstration - YouTube

I don't worry about dogs much, except when they are numerous. It is just a numbers game to me. I don't mind the odd runner, but when it is a pair of large dogs every mile or so, it looses it's charm. That is when I want a little pay back. But I don't want to hurt people's feelings either, or hurt their dogs, which kinda amounts to the same thing.

I have heard about dogs in wilder parts of the world being a real problem, some of the stories are pretty scary. I probably wouldn't want to travel in areas with a lot of feral dogs.

By the way, common low level activities that constitute assault in the human world, or show aggression that could justify an escalation on the part of the person subject to them are:

Unwanted touching; forceful touch, such as jumping up and against; restriction to movement or escape.

Aggressive escalations, can be present in voice, or demeanour, or in attempts to recruit or work with another against the subject of the assault.

Basically, just about everything most dogs do all the time. Dogs don't know what human rules are, and their owners seem not to know either. Dog behaviour is however what we would severely censure in a human, if we chose to. A lot of humans may not be about to bite either, but that doesn't stop the cop who pokes you in the chest from arresting you for assault if you gently and politely brush his hand aside. It is something for the dog whisperers and apologists to consider, when they say that dogs won't bite, or whatever, as though that was the point. By the time that is even a question, the dog has already comited assault. And probably does most days.

4.5 million people are bitten in the US according to the CDC. The real question is how many of those bites are strangers? Most of the bites happen in the home of the family with the dog.

The reason I brought up where I have toured is because I have no idea when I set off down a road what lies ahead. A local knows where the dogs are but I have no idea. Even with no idea of where the "bad" dogs are, I've never been bitten and I've never run across a dog that I couldn't stop dead in its tracks by stopping and yelling at it. I've had dogs almost leave skid marks when I stopped. They know how long our arms and legs and what we can hold in our hands. Every one of them has stopped more than 6' away from me.

I have found lots of great ideas here. Does have any ideas on cows? Don't laugh! I was cornered by one on the KATY two years ago. I have video of it and me screaming like a girl when she charged me. Ideas anyone?

Pretty much the same as dogs. Cows know how delicious they are and where hamburger comes from. Get big and scary.

Dogs on the JOB are known quantities. Dogs on a ride are not. BIG difference.

Let's say I'm riding solo 40-some miles from home out in the boonies. Do I know the name of the road I'm on? (they change a lot more than you'd think, going from one municipality/township to another) Do I know the address of the dog? Do I know which law enforcement jurisdiction I'm in? Where is the nearest phone to call those authorities? Even then, will they show in a timely manner?
I'm gonna protect MYSELF. If it takes a bashing on the doggie noggin with a collapsible baton, so be it. No different than being assaulted in a parking lot in town.

I manage to know which road I'm on even when I go on 1500 mile solo trips. It helps me from getting lost and having to add more mileage. It's called a map and comes in either paper, plastic or electronic versions. I'm pretty handy with all three.

If I'm riding from my door, I know what the name of the roads are either from planning the route or having ridden the route before or having a map with me. Even if I drive to a location and do a ride, I'm pretty sure what road I'm riding on because, well, maps. And, in the this day and age of pocket computers (aka cell phones), finding the name of a road and an address is pretty easy.

Now if someone were actively ordering a dog to attack me...remember that you brought that up...I probably wouldn't stick around for long enough to look up the address but I would retreat to a safe distance and contact the authorities. I didn't say that you couldn't protect yourself. I did say that the best way to deal with a dog that is chasing you is to stop the chase. I'm prepared to protect myself too but not giving the animal something to chase is the first line of defense.

Trying to protect yourself while trying outrun the animal probably isn't the best strategy, either. There's a whole lot that can go wrong. Bashing something that is moving while you are moving can quickly lead to you sliding on the ground. Trying to aim a chemical deterrent while moving could easily result in you getting blasted with the same stuff you want to blast the dog with. It's still better to stop, stand and fight if it comes to that then try to ride a bike and fight. And, as I have found over many years and many dog encounters, stopping defuses the situation in almost all cases...there aren't enough 9s in eternity to make it less than 100% in 35 years of riding...because the dog doesn't have anything to chase any more.

I just go out and ride. I don't map out my trips from home. I'm not going all that far in the grand scheme of things. I can always find my way back home by running into a highway I recognize. I distrust street names on Google, since many are wrong, or the road may have more than one name. (CR1234 may not be called CR1234 on a road sign!) Even the 1035 mile trip I am planning is more of route suggestions. Not too hard to keep the lake on the left or river on the right for hundreds of miles! For the rest? follow the compass. I do not feel like carrying maps that have the detail down to the Township roads with me. I don't plan to bring a GPS. I don't have a smartphone. I'm doing it the old fashioned way!

How are you going to 'contact the authorities' unless you have both a GPS and cell phone (provided you have cell coverage). Where I plan to ride, the towns will be 30 miles or so apart. That means that I'll be at least an hour from the nearest town to 'report to someone'

I've been riding as long as or longer than you have. Farm/ranch dogs are generally just being protective of their territory, and the sooner I get away from there, the better off everyone will be. A chemical spray is a deterrent, not 100% effective. Either is swinging a club/stick/pump or baton. Either is yelling. One thing I will never do is stop! But using a spray just might deter the dog from trying it again in the future.

What are your thoughts on carrying an air horn? One of the small 2oz size like

http://www.dickssportinggoods.com/gr...43959p275w.jpg

I have had good results with stopping and feeding them some kind of dog treat. Made friends with a dog that bit me, and I had to ride past all the time. I have also had good success with a squirt from my bottle.

If you are stopped and they get close don't use your trigger activated co2 inflater to freeze the dog's nose and scare them with the sound.

Even worse, never put the right size bb into the rubber part that fits over the schrader valve. When you pull the trigger you have a bb gun.

Never ever, ever make a screw on barrel that will fire a BB or a small metal file as a dart. The longer barrel adds accuracy and good power for a dart.

If you take a presta cap and thread it about one thread into the Schrader threads, when you pull the trigger it sounds like a .38 firing. Yes, I have owned a .38. The cap makes a pretty loud snap when it hits the house 25 feet away. I think a hit with the presta cap would hurt, but not really cause injury. The sound may freak them out. So don't do this either.

Always try the food or water first, seriously. Don't hurt a dog unless you think he is really going to hurt you.

If you are traveling fast and aim the horn into the wind, the wind will overpower the gas coming out, and will not work sometimes. Also will not work well in cold. In the cold it is possible to keep the horn under your jacket and warm. You may get one blast out of it before it gets too cold.

1) I have been chased by plenty of dogs, and I have never been bitten. I can tell the ones that are noisy from the ones that would like to bite. I have never met one that couldn't be dissuaded from biting. But my point is that they exist. That dog whisperer guy got bit, and he is a pro. I think his initial take on that dog was that it could be corrected. He decided it couldn't. What I take from that is that there are bad dog, not maybe in a moral sense, but bad in that you will not be able to predict their behaviour, and they are mentally ill.

2) My other point in post 2 is that the fact a dog does not bite me, does not mean he did not assault me. All the dogs that barked at me, chased me, forced me to get off the bike (something I rarely do) were in the human description of assault.

While you may be able to deal with dogs while you are riding, you are seemingly from your avatar a big guy. There are lots of other road users who are not big guys, or mock/real aggressive in their displays.

It is pretty much for sure these same dogs are chasing, and killing game. So while you say they never bite cyclists, many of them are killing game.

This all hit home the most for me when I had kids, most of whom are now out of the danger zone: With kids: the idea that dogs may not bite; that verbal and behavioural assaults should be tolerate; that the lame "he's a good dog" chat should be given any standing; just ceases.

It's kinda like if I checked into a hotel, and sometime during the night, the locks snaped shut against me; the room filled with warm water; and I had to tread water till check-out time; I am pretty sure I would make it ok. But I don't have to like it, and at some point I would get pissed off if it just kept happening every time I used a room. However with dogs, they are everywhere and in some areas attack relentlessly, one after the other; The owners are not really in their mind being negligent or acting with intent to harm; and the cyclist doesn't really pass often enough to factor into policy, even were laws already exist. So I don't see a solution.

While owners are not viscous, many are pretty happy to have a loud and aggressive dog that they never do anything about it. And most of them are clueless in their handling of the dog and mistakenly believe they are in charge, though the dog thinks he is Alpha.

Even if you don't map out your rides from home, you have some kind of idea where you are and where you are going. And as you pointed out, a dog bite that requires medical attention gets reported to local law enforcement. If you are bitten by a dog...not just an aggressive dog but an actual bite...you are going to find out were that house is pretty quickly. If the owner of the house has trained the dog to attack a person and is order it to do so, you also what to find out where that address is pretty quickly.

You may distrust Google maps but i've never found them to be inaccurate. I used Google maps to navigate Appalachia and it never steered me wrong.

Let's not lose sight of what was being discussed. You brought up the "dog trained to attack humans" idea. If that were to happen to me, I would certainly find a way to contact the authorities and locate the house. it would be in the court documents when swore out a complaint and when I filed my lawsuit.

Stopping and yelling at the dog is about as close to 100% effective as you can get. With the exception of short legged dogs and small dogs (Cachshunds, Chihuahuas, Pomeranians, etc), a dog that is capable of chasing a bicycle and being enough of a threat to bite the rider is going to be way faster than just about any bicycle rider. I have a good sprint but I top out around 30mph...on a lightweight fast road bike on flat ground. A medium sized dog can easily hit 35 mph so I can't out run him. If I'm riding a 30 lb touring bike with a 40 lb (or higher) load, I'm not going to even approach 25 mph in a "sprint". If there is an uphill involved, I'm not even going to get to 20 mph and 15mph may be impossible. The dog won't even have to breath hard to keep up.

If I can't out run the dog, what's the alternative? If I'm sprinting away from a dog that is chasing me, all of my effort is put into the sprint. I haven't got the skill set with grab the bar with one hand, reach down and grab a weapon of choice, aim it while looking behind me and fire it at the dog while still maintaining a 30 mph sprint. I don't know of anyone else who has that skill set either. Horns, chemical sprays, water bottles, pumps, batons, etc. are all hard to use while actively being chased. Even if I were to use any of those, I would still have to stop to use them effectively. Over years of dealing with dogs, I haven't found the need for any of those. Yelling at the dog from the saddle is effective most of the time. Stopping and yelling is effective most of the rest of the time. Rocks, sticks or even a bicycle wheel are enough if the dog just doesn't get it.

Sure there are bad dogs but even the worst bad dog has a human connection somewhere in its life. I'm not talking about spending any kind of time trying to train the dog but simply playing on that connection. A dog understands what humans can do. Even wolves understand what humans can do and will stay away from them. But dogs...even ones that are aggressive...have be breed for some kind of docility. It only takes a moment tap into that breeding and defuse the chase.

Yes, I'm a large human male. I'm a strong rider, have a good sprint and can get a good amount of speed out of a my legs. But I can't out run a dog. If I can't, how is a smaller, weaker rider going to do what I can't do? Often, when I'm riding with my wife, children or other people, and we encounter a dog, I will let the weaker riders go ahead of me and I deal with the dog. What would you have me do, sprint off to save myself and let the weaker riders deal with the dog? Even if you are a smaller, weaker rider, you can still be aggressive enough towards most dogs to get them to stop the chase. And, like I said above, if you do use a weapon, it's far more effective to use it from a stop than trying to use it while moving. If the dog were really out to do you harm, what kind of chance would you have if you crashed?

I didn't say dogs never bite cyclists. It happens. Mostly because people let the dog get close enough for it to happen. If a dog is still acting aggressively towards me and it is within less than 10 feet, I'm going to be finding something to defend myself with. A bike wheel across the nose will do the job.

Everyone seems to misunderstand when I say to stop and yell at the dog. I'm not saying "Goood dog. Good boy. What a nice doggie," in a baby voice. My usual approach is to yell something short and declarative like "GET!" or "GO HOME!" in as loud and low tone voice as I can. I don't yell or say "Down" or "Heel" or "Stay" because many dogs aren't trained that way. If the dog doesn't get the hint, I'll lace the air with enough obscenities to make a sailor blush. I'm not being nice to the damned dog. If I see signs that the dog might be friendly, I might try to call it over to me but the dog has to come to me, not vice versa.

Kids are a different issue altogether. Although I joked at times that I subscribed to the alligator style of parenting..."So long. Have a good life. If I see you again, I'll probably eat you.":rolleyes:...I am really protective. If you are out riding with your kids, what would you do? Be an alligator and sprint away? Or stay back as protection?

Slowing down or stopping is a good way to get bitten before you even get off the bike. If you are a big strong aggressive alpha male, as some here obviously are, then you may be able to intimidate any dog with your majestic, testosterone infused maleness and commanding voice. Most of us (maybe half of us) aren't big strong males, though, and even those of us who are male maybe aren't big and strong. Or maybe we're just not loud or assertive enough to intimidate Cujo, or Fluffy, or whoever it is that is chasing us.

Not all dogs are out to bite, but some definitely are (been there, done that, got the t-shirt).

I don't like all the discussion on this thread about harming dogs with stuff like ammonia, guns etc. I know (or hope) a lot of it is just humorous banter, but it's still objectionable and disturbing to anyone who likes animals.

I am also somewhat perplexed that so many people seem to disparage or ignore the obvious solution that works very well: Pepper spray. I'm pretty sure that it's legal to possess the 2oz size in most areas of the USA at least (other areas that totally ban it, you have my heartfelt sympathy - you'll have to either carry anyway, or else pick another solution from the handy list I've provided below). The Fox Labs brand (no I am not affiliated with them at all) is what I like, because it's very strong, but still won't hurt anyone permanently. It's really not that difficult to hit a dog that's chasing you (and, unlike some people here, I am not speaking theoretically, but from actual experience). The only thing that I am still debating is whether I prefer the cone (fog) or stream variety. They both have their advantages and disadvantages; the fogger probably doesn't need to be aimed as carefully, but it will be more prone to wind shear (I haven't tried the Fox Labs cone from a moving bike yet, just the stream). The stream needs more aim, but it's not like it's a laser that has to be pin point accuracy. The stream disperses a bit in the air, so it's actually pretty easy to hit a target within about 7-10 feet or so.

The options as I see them:

1. Shouting: Yeah, maybe Cujo will listen to reason. Effective perhaps for some people who are naturally more aggressive and intimidating, but not always the best solution for those of us who forgot to grow sufficiently to have the confidence to throw our weight around whenever we feel like it. Also, some dogs are deaf, or don't pay attention to commands from strangers, or just get more aggressive in response.
2. Stopping: A good way to get yourself or your panniers bitten before you can even get off the bike.
3. Kicking: Flailing around with one foot at a flying carpet with teeth while trying to stay on a moving bike and out of the path of large vehicles is a good recipe for "suicide by bicycle".
4. Outrun: Dogs are faster than you. All this makes you is fast food.
5. Spraying with water: Hey, let's see if he wants a drink with his meal! Also, that water is for me to drink. I don't want to waste it giving Killer a cool shower on a hot day.
6. Hitting with pump: Are you familiar with the game of "tug-of-war"? Are you really wanting to play that on a moving bike, with a creature that is probably named after a famous serial killer? Also, you might need that pump later to repair a flat tire. It would be a bummer to find teeth marks or blood and hair where the valve connector was supposed to be, wouldn't it?
7. Spraying with ammonia/wasp spray/other noxious substance: Why not just give up your tour and set up shop torturing small creatures for fun, because that's what you're doing if you use a chemical that could permanently blind someone's pet. Why not just go all the way, and skip to...
8. Gun: Shoot the dog! Yes, now this is a solution that every American should be able to get on board with. Second Ammendment, it says right there in that thar Constitution that you have the right to kill your neighbor's dog if he chases you. Actually, I think this doesn't go far enough: You should shoot the dog, but then stop and dress your kill and take some choice cuts for eating later in the day. While you are kneeling by the roadside carving up Fluffykins, pause for a moment to emit a blood curdling howl, letting everyone in the vacinity know that this is your kill, your territory, your country. Yes, this is the best solution by far.
9. Ultrasonic Dazer: In case you forgot your firearm (or if you happen to be a convicted felon), you might think that ultrasonic deterrents could be a promising solution. Well, let me tell you, I've tried it, and while it does work sometimes, other times it don't work. So it's a gamble. Hey, that could be a plus. Are you a gambler? You could make it interesting and bet with yourself or your co-riders whether you'll make it out of the next encounter with no major injuries.
10. Pepper spray: What's this? Chemical warfare? Well, kind of. Yes, it hurts like hell when you get sprayed, but it's not permanent. Yonder puppy will suddenly lose all interest in the chase, and gain an intense desire to rub his face in the grass for half an hour, after which time he'll be fine, except for a lingering sense of unease over the idea of chasing other cyclists. So, everybody wins: You get away unscathed, Rocky gets trained to not chase other cyclists (or get himself killed in traffic), the pet owner gets to own his pet some more, and the pepper spray company gets income (support our economy!). What's not to like? Ok, so you have to actually aim (oh, the pain) a can behind you and hit a moving target... but it's really not that hard. I've done it, many times. This stuff works, guaranteed.

Ok, now you can return to your regularly scheduled programming of ignoring everything I say and pretending that there really aren't any good solutions to the chasing dog problem. Have fun!

Neil

You are incorrect on stopping. That's what I've been trying to point out for 5 pages now. A dog chases a bicycle not because it wants to eat it, not because it needs food nor for any reason than the chase itself. Once you stop that chase, there is nothing to interest the dog.

Look at your list again. None of them except shouting and stopping are ineffective if you are trying to keep moving. Even the pepper spray or Halt! are difficult to deploy while riding. It shares the same problem as trying to kick the dog, you have to watch where the spray is going and stay out of the path of vehicles. And what do you do if you pick the can up wrong and end up spraying it towards you? Or you spray it into a tailwind. Now you are blind, being chased by a dog, and have to keep out of the path of vehicles.

I have stopped for many chasing dogs (not all of them since it depends on when they take up the chase) and I have never been bitten. Never even close in thousands of miles of riding.

Dogs are like people, some you can "speak" with, others you can't.
For the second type I find slingshots sweet... they always understand the "conversation".
Just practice a bit before carrying one with you, amazing instrument. Small, light and powerful with ammunition widely available.

You have your theory, and I have mine. I'll tell you what. If we ever ride together, you can stop and I'll keep going. In my world, he's protecting his territory because that's what dogs do. It is their nature. And the faster I get out of his territory, the better. If you want to stop to argue with a vicious dog over whose territory it is, be my guest. Let me know how it turns out.

Even when I was carrying mail and came upon a nasty dog, I don't try to reason with it - I leave the area. I never turn my back on the dog and I LEAVE.

Just a quick note on this: The Fox Labs pepper spray that I use has a directional, spring-loaded flip top lid design that makes it virtually impossible to accidentally spray yourself, or even actuate it by accident. At the same time, it's very quick to operate.

This seems like one of those theoretical ideas that is bandied around, but it doesn't really fly in reality. When you are riding your bike, the spray aimed behind you does not somehow magically come forward against the wind to blind you. It would have to be a very strong wind in order to blow the spray back toward you if you are aiming behind the bike (as you usually would with a chasing dog); I have certainly never experienced such an effect (but I have to admit that this doesn't mean it could never happen; I'm just saying that it's not very common, if it happens at all). I like the stream variety (as opposed to the fog/cone) in part because it is not as affected by wind and blowback.

That's great to hear! I've never been hit by a truck, so I guess by your logic that means I'm immune to trucks.

You may have a commanding physical presence, being an alpha über male and all. You seem to have missed my point above about not everybody being a big assertive testosteroney dominant man. Many people are, how do I put this, women. Or even (dare I say it), smaller men, or even (whisper) men or women who just aren't all that alpha or commanding in their demeanor. The undertone to all of this talk is that if you have trouble with dogs, then that must mean you're just some kind of wimp who can't handle dogs. I think this is probably a bit offensive to many people, but they wouldn't tell this to your face because you're just so, well, commanding and assertive. I find myself cowering a bit in your presence, actually. Please, please don't tell me to SIT or GET OFF THE COUCH, it would be most embarrassing.

Pepper spray is helpful for "the rest of us" who don't hold advanced diplomas in Über Masculine Dog Domination And Just Being A Real Man Who Knows How To Handle Dogs (someone should trim that title down a bit). I have been known to get in the odd tangle with pitbulls myself, but I still like pepper spray as an easy, effective, stand-off solution to the issue of chasing dogs, which serves double duty as training the dog not to chase other cyclists in the future (not even small, effeminate ones who only know how to act like prey).

Neil

Well stated.

Cheese spray!

Throw chili cheese dogs!